LDS What about the other standard works? (D&C and POGP)

[-57]

Mormons believe that we are all eternal (they also believe that matter is eternal). We all have a core "intelligence" that has always existed, for all of us (this isn't unique to Jesus). They also believe that we are literal sons and daughters of Heavenly Father (and His spouse, Heavenly Mother). Jesus Christ (known as Jehovah also) was the firstborn spirit son of the Father and Mother. So, while Mormons can say that Jesus Christ has always existed (though they also say that we have all always existed), there was some sort of creative process that occurred that resulted in us being the literal sons and daughters of "heavenly parents".

Sounds like the Mormons play with words and there nuances to make it sound like Jesus always existed. That seems to be somewhat dishonest to me.
I would think they deny that one time the only thing that existed was the Godhead (trinity).

 

[-57]

So because we insert that Jesus inherited divine powers from His Father, you have concluded that this manual is teaching false information about Jesus?

That was just one instance. There was also the claim that Jesus got to be the savior and Lucifer didn't. As if Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, both created beings.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Sounds like the Mormons play with words and there nuances to make it sound like Jesus always existed.

Except that Mormon do believe that Christ has always existed.

All the off-topic stuff NYCGuy posted out is an attempt to distract you from that.

That seems to be somewhat dishonest to me.

No.....

I would think they deny that one time the only thing that existed was the Godhead (trinity).

That is a whole different topic...

 

[Jane_Doe]

There was also the claim that Jesus got to be the savior and Lucifer didn't.

No, this is not LDS belief. I already discussed this earlier this thread.

both created beings.

No, this is not LDS belief. Again, I already discussed this earlier this thread.

-57, I don't care whether or not you agree with LDS beliefs, but I would prefer that you not post falsehoods about what those beliefs are.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, this is not LDS belief. I already discussed this earlier this thread.


No, this is not LDS belief. Again, I already discussed this earlier this thread.

-57, I don't care whether or not you agree with LDS beliefs, but I would prefer that you not post falsehoods about what those beliefs are.

Your "beliefs" seem to differ with these:

“Our Father said, ‘Whom shall I send?’ (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, ‘Here am I, send me’….Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor’ (Moses 4:1).” (Gospel Principles, 1997, pp.17-18).

“After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, ‘I will send the first.’ (Abraham 3:27).” (Gospel Principles [2009], 15).

Gospel Principles is an official lds teaching manual. The books of Abraham and Moses are official doctrine. Jesus got picked, Satan didn't. Perhaps your belief is different from official doctrine and teaching?

“In the grand council called to ratify the Father’s plan, a great difference arose. The majority, led by the First Born of the Father, our Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ, was ready to accept the plan with all its conditions. The minority, led by Lucifer, a ‘son of the morning,’ feared the isolation and the pains and ills of earth. For them Lucifer proposed that they should be sent to earth, but that provisions should be made by which they would suffer no pain and would not have to make any sacrifices. All of them would be returned with earthly bodies irrespective of their works on earth. This latter plan seemed desirable that one-third of those present favored it, in direct opposition of God’s plan. Lucifer and his followers were thrown out of the council, and as opponents of God’s plan, became the devil and his angels, who strive ever to tempt men to disobey the laws of God.” (John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith – Seeker After Truth, pp.156-157)

One could argue that this isn't from a doctrinal source, but that does not stop it from being taught. From the Deseret Books website about the book:

This book was written at the suggestion of George Albert Smith, eighth president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It was finished shortly before his death. He urged its early publication and wide circulation to aid, with other publications, in the establishment of the truth of the claims of the first prophet of this dispensation.

Was your past president wrong? Uh oh...

“On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers.(Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)” (Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986, pp.25–26.)

The Ensign is an official lds church-sponsored magazine. How can one be an "offspring" and always existed?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Your "beliefs" seem to differ with these:

“Our Father said, ‘Whom shall I send?’ (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, ‘Here am I, send me’….Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor’ (Moses 4:1).” (Gospel Principles, 1997, pp.17-18).

“After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, ‘I will send the first.’ (Abraham 3:27).” (Gospel Principles [2009], 15).

Gospel Principles is an official lds teaching manual. The books of Abraham and Moses are official doctrine. Jesus got picked, Satan didn't. Perhaps your belief is different from official doctrine and teaching?

“In the grand council called to ratify the Father’s plan, a great difference arose. The majority, led by the First Born of the Father, our Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ, was ready to accept the plan with all its conditions. The minority, led by Lucifer, a ‘son of the morning,’ feared the isolation and the pains and ills of earth. For them Lucifer proposed that they should be sent to earth, but that provisions should be made by which they would suffer no pain and would not have to make any sacrifices. All of them would be returned with earthly bodies irrespective of their works on earth. This latter plan seemed desirable that one-third of those present favored it, in direct opposition of God’s plan. Lucifer and his followers were thrown out of the council, and as opponents of God’s plan, became the devil and his angels, who strive ever to tempt men to disobey the laws of God.” (John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith – Seeker After Truth, pp.156-157)

One could argue that this isn't from a doctrinal source, but that does not stop it from being taught. From the Deseret Books website about the book:

This book was written at the suggestion of George Albert Smith, eighth president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It was finished shortly before his death. He urged its early publication and wide circulation to aid, with other publications, in the establishment of the truth of the claims of the first prophet of this dispensation.

Was your past president wrong? Uh oh...

“On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers.(Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)” (Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986, pp.25–26.)

The Ensign is an official lds church-sponsored magazine. How can one be an "offspring" and always existed?

You're spinning things.

 

[NYCGuy]

Except that Mormon do believe that Christ has always existed.

All the off-topic stuff NYCGuy posted out is an attempt to distract you from that.

Seeing how the topic is about the standard works, if I'm off-topic, so are you. Nice try.

And sure, Mormons believe that Christ has always existed. The question then becomes, how has He always existed. My post addresses that, specifically, the nuanced view of always existing within the context of being a literal spirit offspring of heavenly parents (as we all are), and the belief in eternal intelligences.

 

[-57]

Except that Mormon do believe that Christ has always existed.

Do you have any Mormon information that supports that?

 

[-57]

No, this is not LDS belief. I already discussed this earlier this thread.

That most certainly is Mormon belief.

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 207).

ref

 

[BigDaddy4]

You're spinning things.

No spinning here. It is written in plain English. Perhaps it is your misunderstanding of what is taught.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do you have any Mormon information that supports that?

Yes, scripture:

• from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God: Ps. 90:2 .
• thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end: Ps. 102:27 .
• Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God: Ps. 146:10 .
• thy name is from everlasting: Isa. 63:16 .
• being understood by … his eternal power and Godhead: Rom. 1:20 .

• Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever: Heb. 13:8 . ( Morm. 9:9 ; Moro. 10:7, 19 ; D&C 20:11–12 . )
• Alpha and Omega … the first and the last: Rev. 22:13 .

• course of the Lord is one eternal round: 1 Ne. 10:19 . ( Alma 37:12 ; D&C 3:2 ; D&C 35:1 . )
• one Eternal God: Alma 11:44 .
• God … being from everlasting to everlasting: Moro. 7:22 .

• I am endless: D&C 19:10 .
• God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal: D&C 20:17 .
• Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end: D&C 38:1 .
• From eternity to eternity he is the same: D&C 76:4 .
• Eternal God of all other gods: D&C 121:32 .

• Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end: Moses 1:3 .
• Endless and Eternal is my name: Moses 7:35 .

 

[Jane_Doe]

That most certainly is Mormon belief.

No, you are misreading things. Let's look at the actual scripture references: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/4.1-3?lang=eng#primary
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29.36-37?lang=eng#35
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.25-38?lang=eng#24

The Father already had His plan, and Jesus had whom was described by the Father as being "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning". Christ says "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever". Christ (whom was pre-selected) volunteered be the Savior, the lamb that was slain, place the Father's will above His own, that whom shall ever believe will be saved.

Lucifer makes no such offer. He has no interest in being a Savior, a willing sacrifice, or placing the Father's will above his own. Lucifer has zero interest in following the Father's plan at all. Lucifer's idea is entirely Lucifer-centric: he seeks to seize the Father's power, to follow his (Lucifer's) plan rather than the Father's, and have all the glory be his own. He does not want to be a willing sacrifice that whom shall ever believe will be saved-- he is rebelling and declaring war against God.

So no, Lucifer was an "alternative" savior: the Father had already chosen Christ for the role, and Lucifer had no interest in being an actual sacrifice.

 

[dzheremi]

Seeing how the topic is about the standard works, if I'm off-topic, so are you. Nice try.

I've long understood that the topic will be answered, if at all, within the first half dozen replies, and then probably drift away to be replaced by something else. Meh.

And sure, Mormons believe that Christ has always existed. The question then becomes, how has He always existed. My post addresses that, specifically, the nuanced view of always existing within the context of being a literal spirit offspring of heavenly parents (as we all are), and the belief in eternal intelligences.

Exactly. I remember reading about intelligences in the other thread and...yeah...this idea is really foreign to any kind of Christianity I can think of and seems to have more to do with Hinduism or some other belief system that involves reincarnation than to do with anything Christian. I guess that's what happens when you don't believe in creation ex nihilo, even though that's a clear enough belief of the early Church if you read the fathers.

In fact, I was curious about the phrasing of one of the verses that Jane Doe highlighted above, about God being "one eternal round", because I'd never heard that before, so it struck me as uniquely Mormon. In searching for an explanation as to what that could mean. I found a thread on LDS Hub about it. I know that's just some random message board, but there are some interesting insights on there. Some of my favorites:

When I hear the phrase, I think of the ubiquitous LDS hymn If You Could Hie To Kolob.

I went to look it up in the context of this thread, and it seems to me (reading the first and third verses) that the "one eternal round" refers to the cycle of being created, living on earth, being exalted, becoming a God, and then creating, starting the cycle over again.

Verse One

If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

Verse Three

The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

This actually sort of answers my other thread (on the beginning of God in Mormonism), and in just the way I was told there (there is technically no beginning because matter/intelligences are eternal). But it also explicitly states that there are multiple capital-G gods, which kind of makes Mormons sound like henotheists (at best), even if you didn't know any of the Mormon-specific theology that actually makes it quite a bit worse than that (from a traditional Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed-adhering perspective, that is).

Some believe that Adam in Eden was in life #2 - Adam was a celestial being in Eden, and you become a celestial being through going through the cycle... If the first go around you are translated and do not die... you still have to die once somehow, somewhere...

Again, very much like reincarnation, this 'eternal round' business. "Life #2"...meaning that the pre-existence is its own separate life, I guess? I don't know, since this idea has no currency in Christianity, but it's still interesting as an idea. And so I have to believe that since the Mormon Jesus likewise 'pre-existed' and is an eternal intelligence (just like we are), then Mormons cannot plausibly claim to mean the same thing as Christians do when they say that Jesus always existed, since our idea of Him always existing is as God and the Creator, not merely the organizer, of the everything -- and not existing as an 'intelligence' (since, again, this is not a thing in Christianity), but as true God, to use the phrasing of the Creed. (Which completely rules out this idea of 'progression' so central to Mormon theology, soteriology, etc.)

It seems from my perspective as an outsider that all of Mormon theology suffers from an inability to distinguish between the creator and the created, which makes sense when you consider their belief in the eternal nature of matter, but also makes their attempts to sound like a Christian denomination by pointing to their belief that Christ has always existed seem pretty suspect.

They most definitely don't mean the same thing by this as historically-attested Christianity does, and I suspect they are aware of this and are perhaps hoping that their inquirers don't learn the right questions to ask (as you have), and instead accept something that sounds Christian as actually being Christian.

 

[-57]

Yes, scripture:

• from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God: Ps. 90:2 .
• thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end: Ps. 102:27 .
• Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God: Ps. 146:10 .
• thy name is from everlasting: Isa. 63:16 .
• being understood by … his eternal power and Godhead: Rom. 1:20 .

• Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever: Heb. 13:8 . ( Morm. 9:9 ; Moro. 10:7, 19 ; D&C 20:11–12 . )
• Alpha and Omega … the first and the last: Rev. 22:13 .

• course of the Lord is one eternal round: 1 Ne. 10:19 . ( Alma 37:12 ; D&C 3:2 ; D&C 35:1 . )
• one Eternal God: Alma 11:44 .
• God … being from everlasting to everlasting: Moro. 7:22 .

• I am endless: D&C 19:10 .
• God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal: D&C 20:17 .
• Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end: D&C 38:1 .
• From eternity to eternity he is the same: D&C 76:4 .
• Eternal God of all other gods: D&C 121:32 .

• Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end: Moses 1:3 .
• Endless and Eternal is my name: Moses 7:35 .

Is the above God you spoke of Jesus?

 

[-57]

The question is....Is Jesus a created being? Was there a time Jesus didn't exist?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Is the above God you spoke of Jesus?

Applies equally to the Father, Son, and Spirit.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The question is....Is Jesus a created being? Was there a time Jesus didn't exist?

No.

 

[Alla27]

Sounds like the Mormons play with words and there nuances to make it sound like Jesus always existed. That seems to be somewhat dishonest to me.
I would think they deny that one time the only thing that existed was the Godhead (trinity).

God did not claim that there was time when only He existed.
I am eternal being. God is eternal being. Matter is eternal.

 

[-57]

Applies equally to the Father, Son, and Spirit.

God did not claim that there was time when only He existed.
I am eternal being. God is eternal being. Matter is eternal.

Matter isn't eternal.
I have the feeling you're trying to tell me Jesus existed as "matter"...from eternity.

 

[-57]

Bump

Alla27, do you have a spirit?