What about the Native Americans?

[Defensor Christi]

This question is for those who do not believe in the Theological teaching of Invincible Ignorance...

What do you believe/teach is the eternal fate of those Native Americans who lived and died in North America, prior to the Continents discovery who never heard the name Jesus Christ?

Library : Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible - Catholic Culture

 

[Optimax]

This question is for those who do not believe in the Theological teaching of Invincible Ignorance...

What do you believe/teach is the eternal fate of those Native Americans who lived and died in North America, prior to the Continents discovery who never heard the name Jesus Christ?

Library : Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible - Catholic Culture

I am not concerned about it.

The reason that I am not is this.

I trust God.

He is more than wise enough.

He is more than smart enough.

He is more than fair and just enough.

Therefore:

He is more than capable of deciding those things.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I am not concerned about it.

The reason that I am not is this.

I trust God.

He is more than wise enough.

He is more than smart enough.

He is more than fair and just enough.

Therefore:

He is more than capable of deciding those things.

Why cant you give an answer? According to most protestant theology there are only two possible destinations...heaven or hell.

So, what happened to their souls? I understand you are not God, but certainly you can apply your theological beliefs to this question and give an answer, right?

 

[MercyandFaith]

There's a verse in Scripture about how people are without excuse. Can't recall it, but the message I think is that nobody dies with a legitimate excuse about being unsaved.

 

[Optimax]

Why cant you give an answer? According to most protestant theology there are only two possible destinations...heaven or hell.

So, what happened to their souls? I understand you are not God, but certainly you can apply your theological beliefs to this question and give an answer, right?

I did answer!

My answer is that God knows how to handle it and I agree with whatever He says.

 

[Defensor Christi]

There's a verse in Scripture about how people are without excuse. Can't recall it, but the message I think is that nobody dies with a legitimate excuse about being unsaved.

So living and dying in a part of the world with absolutely zero contact from anyone...isnt a valid excuse?

Remember, they had no internet, televisions, cell phones...they were living and existing in a part of the world that had not been discovered by anyone who knew of Christ or the Gospel...

 

[MercyandFaith]

So living and dying in a part of the world with absolutely zero contact from anyone...isnt a valid excuse?

Remember, they had no internet, televisions, cell phones...they were living and existing in a part of the world that had not been discovered by anyone who knew of Christ or the Gospel...

I'm sure God makes a path to salvation known to them either through the Holy Spirit or by other means.

 

[frumanchu]

This question is for those who do not believe in the Theological teaching of Invincible Ignorance...

What do you believe/teach is the eternal fate of those Native Americans who lived and died in North America, prior to the Continents discovery who never heard the name Jesus Christ?

I believe John 3:18 and the opening chapters of Romans answer it pretty directly. While salvation is ultimately of the Lord and by His grace, the normal means of salvation is trust in the saving work of Christ. Apart from trust in Jesus Christ, men justly perish in their sin.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I believe John 3:18 and the opening chapters of Romans answer it pretty directly. While salvation is ultimately of the Lord and by His grace, the normal means of salvation is trust in the saving work of Christ. Apart from trust in Jesus Christ, men justly perish in their sin.

So your answer is hell? Is that correct?

 

[MercyandFaith]

So your answer is hell? Is that correct?

My guess is that even if someone never heard the Gospel directly from another human person, they'd still go to Hell after death for being a sinner.

Might not sound fair, but sin is sin and being unfallen is being unfallen.

 

[frumanchu]

So your answer is hell? Is that correct?

Correct.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Correct.

So tell me, how do you reconcile a Just and Loving God with an injustice such as this?

That these men and women, who didnt have the opportunity to begin to contemplate the existence of Jesus Christ, sin or the God of Abraham to be eternally damned because of the location of their birth?

 

[frumanchu]

So tell me, how do you reconcile a Just and Loving God with an injustice such as this?

Well the "just" part is super easy. They are sinners. Justice for them is condemnation, just as it is for any of us apart from Christ.

God's love and justice are not at odds. He has mercy upon whom He has mercy.

That these men and women, who didnt have the opportunity to begin to contemplate the existence of Jesus Christ, sin or the God of Abraham to be eternally damned because of the location of their birth?

No, they are eternally damned because they are sinners. Paul makes very clear in Romans that they have no excuse. They are not innocent victims; they are sinners in the hands of a God of justice. If He is in any way required to do anything other than punish that sin, then there is no true grace in salvation...only obligation.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Well the "just" part is super easy. They are sinners. Justice for them is condemnation, just as it is for any of us apart from Christ.

God's love and justice are not at odds. He has mercy upon whom He has mercy.



No, they are eternally damned because they are sinners. Paul makes very clear in Romans that they have no excuse. They are not innocent victims; they are sinners in the hands of a God of justice. If He is in any way required to do anything other than punish that sin, then there is no true grace in salvation...only obligation.

So then, what must you do to be saved?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This question is for those who do not believe in the Theological teaching of Invincible Ignorance...

What do you believe/teach is the eternal fate of those Native Americans who lived and died in North America, prior to the Continents discovery who never heard the name Jesus Christ?

Library : Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible - Catholic Culture

They had their own dealings with God. God knows . my ancestors weren't there to pass down stories .. so how could i know?

 

[Defensor Christi]

They had their own dealings with God. God knows . my ancestors weren't there to pass down stories .. so how could i know?

I am asking your theological opinion...

 

[frumanchu]

So then, what must you do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am asking your theological opinion...

oh . my theological opinion is

if i haven't had a chance to see the depths of their soul

if i haven't heard a word leave their mouth

if body language is as silent as the grave to my eyes

then what sound judgment can i make?

if i do not understand God's plan from end to beginning from age to age

then how can i accurately say what their destiny is?

basically . i don't think the scripture really talks about it enough in depth for me to make a sound judgment on the matter . being that i would be judging others .. and in that the same judgment would be measured back to me .. and i don't even know how they lived and how they died .

 

[Rhamiel]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31)

but s a Calvinist, you believe that we are saved without our own actions but totally by God

so it is possible that there were some elect among the Indians even before Columbus came to the Americas?

that they repented of their sin and understood that they were saved not by their own actions but totally by the grace of their Creator
they might not have had the Christian vocabulary, but it is possible that some were saved?

or am I misrepresenting your beliefs?

 

[Rhamiel]

also I do not think it is good to speculate about the salvation of others

those who are dead are dead, if they are in hell we can not help them and if they are in heaven they do not need our help

if you are Catholic, say a quick prayer for the poor souls in Purgatory and then stop worrying about it.
if you are Protestant, well then you would obviously not do this

We all have more then enough things to work on in our own walk with the Lord
far too many brothers and sisters in Christ who could use our help
let the dead burry the dead