A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

[Xeno.of.athens]

And just one minor thing; when I was younger, and this may still be the case, "blessed" was used as a mild swear word. As in "that's a blessed nuisance", "that blessed cat's got out again."

Gladly I cannot confirm such in my childhood years.

 

[Strong in Him]

If the application of Christ's saving acts were limited to the time after his resurrection that all the old testament saints would be doomed. But they are not doomed because time does not limit God's grace.

They are not doomed because Christ went and preached to them when he was in the tomb, 1 Peter 3:19-20.

 

[Strong in Him]

You speak as if you had sure knowledge of this claim yet the scriptures tell us that Job was perfect and that Enoch pleased God so God took him directly to heaven without dying.

They weren't perfect - if anyone had been able to keep the law perfectly, Jesus would not have needed to have come.
Keeping the law would just be a matter of willpower; our own efforts. We would be able to save ourselves; but we can't.

Your claim is not consistent with what is written so I will not spend more time on it than I have already.

And yet a while back when I was telling you that some Catholic tenet wasn't Scriptural, you were insisting that Scripture isn't all there is, and strongly defending oral tradition.
By your own argument, I need waste no more time on Catholic teaching, then.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

They weren't perfect

Job 1:1 KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

 

[Strong in Him]

Job 1:1 KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

That doesn't say he was perfect for the whole of his life.
If he had been then, after all his suffering when God revealed himself, he would not have said "Surely I spoke of things I did not understand ........ I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes, Job 42:3-6"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That doesn't say he was perfect for the whole of his life.

Thems is weasel words

If he had been then, after all his suffering when God revealed himself, he would not have said "Surely I spoke of things I did not understand ........ I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes, Job 42:3-6"

Perfect humanity does not imply omniscience; after all, Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil, yet they were perfect.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Job was blameless because of the sacrificial system of atonement. It was his regular custom to perform animal sacrifices (Job 1:5).

Scripture says in very clear terms that Jesus was the only human who was without sin in and of himself.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Job was blameless because of the sacrificial system of atonement.

The consensus is that Job lived before the Law came into being. He was perfect and upright because he was good.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Scripture says in very clear terms that Jesus was the only human who was without sin in and of himself.

That is not what scripture says, holy scripture affirms that the Lord was without sin, but holy scripture does not affirm that no others were perfect (Job) and pleased God (Enoch). And should you be tempted to quote from the psalms that there "is no one righteous, no not one" it is well to remember that the psalm doesn't make an exception for Christ, nor for Job, nor for Enoch. So, let God be true, and every theologian can fend for himself.

 

[fhansen]

He doesn't tell us how to live our lives though.
Neither Jesus, nor Scripture, tell us what job to do, where to live, who, or whether, to marry, whether or not to have children, and if so, how many, who to vote for, how to spend our money or anything else.
We are told to put God first, to be salt and light for the world, to proclaim the Good News, to love as Jesus loved and so on. Everything else has to be worked out by us.

Like I said, he didn't come to tell us how to live our lives.
He came to reconcile us to God and to demonstrate God's love for us, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:16. He came so that we, godless sinners, might become children of God, John 1:12 and have eternal life, John 6:29, John 6:40.


In what way?


The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace etc. These aren't possible without the Holy Spirit; HE produces them in us, we can't make the chnge on our own.


What position? All I said was that we have to work out a lot of things for ourselves.
It would be a lot easier if Scripture said, "live in this place, don't have more than 3 children, don't spend your money on that, vote for ......... don't agree with government policy on this" etc etc, but it doesn't.

Yes, of course - but sometimes it will be a personal line.
Some Christians may say, "I could never go to a church which taught ............", while other Christians have no problem with it.
Probably most Christian women would never have an abortion - while for a few, it might be right/necessary.
In this country, guns are illegal - except for specially licensed guns - so the question of whether to carry one is a non starter. Whereas Christians elsewhere may firmly believe they have a right to own one.
In some countries, women seem to be treated much as they were in NT times - no worth, rights, identity. Whereas other countries teach that we have a right to work, to own property, to vote etc - and also a right not to do these things if we believe them to be wrong.

Again, it would be so much easier if Scripture addressed these matters - but it doesn't.

Ok, so we already know how to live-and the Sermon on the Mount and a myriad of other teachings mean nothing. In fact, He need not tell us about them because He's just going to make it happen anyway. We never need to seek to do the right thing because He'll just make it happen, We don't need to be told to be vigilant, to make the effort to be holy, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, to be perfect, to love , to obey the commandments, to refrain from sin, to feed the hungry and cloth the naked or forgive our brother.

Of course only He can make the change in us, but we must cooperate and we can fail to do so which is why we need to know, which is why we need to hear 1 Cor 13:1-8 or Rom 2:7, or or John 15:1-8

And OSAS is a bad belief because rash over-confidence is never a beneficial or fruitful disposition. Go back and read your bible, for yourself, not through the eyes of novel theologies that have risen in the last few centuries.

Again, it would be so much easier if Scripture addressed these matters - but it doesn't

Scripture doesn't address many matters fully or at all in some cases. And yet much of it was conveyed directly or in Spirit to the disciples at the beginning, whether written or not. That's why we continue to need the church. But people fail to listen to it as well.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sin and the shedding of blood through animal sacrifice existed before Moses.

Scripture clearly states that Jesus was without sin. That's not clearly stated about anyone else except for Adam and Eve before they disobeyed. Before Jesus, people could be held blameless and in God's favor and be of God's own heart etc, while still under the curse of sin because they regularly repented and atoned.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thems is weasel words

No, it's a fact.

Perfect humanity does not imply omniscience; after all, Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil, yet they were perfect.

I didn't even mention omniscience.

If Enoch, Job and Mary were perfect, why did we need Jesus?
If 3 people could manage to not sin and obey the law perfectly, why could nobody else? Why couldn't a man have kept the law perfectly, married Mary and they have a perfect baby? Why would God put his Son through all that pain and suffering if he didn't need to?

 

[Ceallaigh]

No, it's a fact.

I didn't even mention omniscience.

If Enoch, Job and Mary were perfect, why did we need Jesus?
If 3 people could manage to not sin and obey the law perfectly, why could nobody else? Why couldn't a man have kept the law perfectly, married Mary and they have a perfect baby? Why would God put his Son through all that pain and suffering if he didn't need to?

If Enoch, Job and Mary were perfect, it's because they regularly repented and atoned.

 

[Strong in Him]

Ok, so we already know how to live-and the Sermon on the Mount and a myriad of other teachings mean nothing. In fact, He need not tell us about them because He's just going to make it happen anyway.

You either haven't read, or understood, my post.
I said that neither Jesus nor Scripture tell us what job to get, who to marry, how many children to have etc etc. They don't; that's just a fact.
And I never said anything about God "just going to make it happen".

.We never need to seek to do the right thing because He'll just make it happen,

Where are you getting this "God will make it happen" stuff from? I didn't say that.
I said that the Bible does not give us specifics about our job, location, marital status etc.
Life would be a lot easier if it did - we could never get anything wrong; but it doesn't. There is no Biblical guidance on these aspects of our lives.

We don't need to be told to be vigilant, to make the effort to be holy,

Holy means "set apart".
If we dedicate our lives to God, give ourselves to him, put him first and are filled with his Spirit, we are holy.

to obey the commandments, to refrain from sin, to feed the hungry and cloth the naked or forgive our brother.

If we have received Jesus, accepted God's free gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23, been filled with his Spirit and experienced his love, I don't believe we will want to deliberately sin or want to do anything to hurt him.

Just as you would not tell a bride, who was madly in love with her husband, to remember not to hit/abuse/mistreat him. Or tell a mother, overjoyed with her new-born baby, that she shouldn't forget to feed or change him.

And OSAS is a bad belief because rash over-confidence is never a beneficial or fruitful disposition.

If someone is saved and their thoughts are "how much sin can I get away with and still be saved?", or "now that I'm saved, I will always be saved no matter how much sin I commit", I would suggest that either they have a very selfish view of salvation (i.e. I'm ok, whatever I do) or they are failing to keep Jesus' command to love as he loved us.

All I can say is that, for years I had head knowledge that God loved me. I didn't really believe it, deep down, because I didn't love myself. I also felt it presumptuous to say that God loved me, when I wasn't worthy enough.
When I grasped that God really did love me - not because of me, but because he is love - that completely changed my outlook on everything. Before, I didn't want to sin, but 80% of that was due to fear - either of being caught or of punishment. Now, I don't want to sin because it would hurt the One who saved me and quench, or grieve, his Spirit within me.

Go back and read your bible, for yourself,

I'm perfectly capable of reading the Bible thank you - and do so with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture doesn't address many matters fully or at all in some cases.

And that was my point.

 

[Strong in Him]

Gladly I cannot confirm such in my childhood years.

"Blessed" is an adjective anyway - not a title.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"Blessed" is an adjective anyway - not a title.

All the more reason for people to stop complaining about it.

 

[Strong in Him]

All the more reason for people to stop complaining about it.

No, you're using it as a title.
I would certainly say that Mary was blessed - I'm not going to use that adjective every time I say her name, though.

As someone once said, "Your claim is not consistent with what is written, so I will not spend any more time on it than I have already."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, you're using it as a title.
I would certainly say that Mary was blessed - I'm not going to use that adjective every time I say her name, though.

As someone once said, "Your claim is not consistent with what is written, so I will not spend any more time on it than I have already."

One can say "Your Honour" to a judge, and "His Holiness" about a pope, so why not "Blessed" about Blessed Mary? You seem determined to avoid it, and no one will force you to use it, but you do not stop with your private reluctance you go further and express dissatisfaction with me using it.

 

[Strong in Him]

One can say "Your Honour" to a judge, and "His Holiness" about a pope, so why not "Blessed" about Blessed Mary? You seem determined to avoid it, and no one will force you to use it, but you do not stop with your private reluctance you go further and express dissatisfaction with me using it.

You can do what you want.
I just said that a) when I was young it was a minor swear word - or at least, an expression of dissatisfaction and b) that it is not a title.
It's also not written in Scripture that we have to call her that. Jesus didn't - at the wedding in Cana he called her "woman".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's also not written in Scripture that we have to call her that.

Luke 1:48 KJV For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.