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What about the elephant in the room?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by packermann, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. I agree that the there is much corruption in the Catholic Church but God will bring the Church back

    9 vote(s)
    69.2%
  2. I think you are exagerating the problems in the Church. The Church is fine.

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  3. I agree that the there is much corruption in the Catholic Church and this disproves its claims

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  1. packermann

    packermann Junior Member

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    I used to be on this forum years ago. I was Catholic then and even more of a Catholic now. But my Catholic faith had been tried. It has been tried by the sex scandals. I feel I was lied to. I was told that the sex scandals were a thing of the past. I was told that these scandals were no more than what happens in the general population. Sadly, I realized that was not true. It is far worse than I ever imagined it.

    Our Protestant brothers and sisters, I am afraid, are more aware of these scandals than we are. We must confront this. We must be able to explain how the one true, holy, apostolic and Catholic Church could have so much corruption even from the very top.

    Again, I want to reiterate that I am a faithful Catholic and I would encourage everyone here to remain a faithful Catholic. Our Lord never promised that His Church would always be triumphant. But He did promise that the gates of death and hell shall not prevail against His Church. G.K. Chesterton said that the Church at times seems to be dead. But we worship a God who knows how to come back to the dead. That has happened throughout the history of the Catholic Church. Throughout its history there were times that Satan seemed victorious over the Church. But then God would raise up a saint(s) to guide the Church out of its corruption. We need to pray for God to raise up saints again.
    Lately, the New York government has invoke RICO against the Church. The statute of limitations has been greatly expanded. Men can now sue the Church for the cover-ups on the sex abuse done on them when they were boys. Other cities will follow. Insurance companies are refusing to cover for these lawsuits, saying that the Church officials lied to them. The Church will spend millions of dollars suing the lawsuits ands I think the the Church will probably lose. We are talking of hundred of millions of dollars lost, money that you and I put in the offering every week. Thousands of churches will close (actually, that is starting to happen now). I will not be surprised that we will need to have Mass in someone's basement, as there will be no more Catholic Church buildings and there will only be a handful of faithful Catholics left.

    In all this, I think I see God's hand in this. In the Bible, God called Gideon to raise an army. God whittled that army to just a handful of soldiers. But then they became more than victors. I think that is what is going to happen now. Many will leave the Catholic Church, especially the clergy. But the ones who remain will be great saints. And the Church will come back more glorious than ever.

    Unfortunately, I doubt I will be here to see it. I am now 67 years old with many physical problems. Maybe none of us will be alive to see it. But I want to encourage all here to be faithful. Do not be discouraged. God has not left His Church. You may see this great miracle of the Church raised from its ruins.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    Agreed, brother. I don't think that the Church that has given us Saint Teresa of Calcutta and Saint John Paul II will ever cease to be genuinely holy, even if in tiny ways, in people's hearts.

    Many, many Popes and Bishops have alluded to a future with a tiny, hidden, holy Church. We might be headed there. But God has ways of bringing us through.
     
  3. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Judgment begins at the house of God. There is culpability across denominational lines. No parent should fear their children’s safety within the presence of men and women called to serve. That should be the safest place for everyone.

    God will not be mocked. He said the hidden things would be revealed. We must remove the blight to allow healing and peace to return. None have gone unscathed. Forsaking their duty as shepherds has a consequence.

    We need healthy leaders who are honest and God-fearing. We need men and women’s whose primary aim is service. We need men and women He sends. Not volunteers. We need His best.

    God willing, we’ll see them come forth and usher in better days than the ones we’ve known.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  4. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    I agree that God has not left the church. If we read the word we see that these times were prophesied, whether these are just the birth pangs or further on the timeline. But what we can be sure of is :




    so what if we have to meet in houses, the apostles did the same. But Christ will come again in his glory. this I am sure of.
     
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  5. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    So was I.

    I remain skeptical of this.

    That having been said, some of these accusations have been pretty shocking. One in particular hits pretty close to home for me since the accused is a spiritual authority of mine. A nearby priest was credibly accused. The accuser spread her story all over the Internet... in large part because that's what she had to do to get the diocese to take her seriously. She has some very persuasive evidence too. Not incontrovertible but still very serious.

    With respect, this I simply do not buy. A certain prolific writer/blogger/podcaster from very high up in the Southern Baptist Convention leadership wrote publicly about how he believes the SBC is being judged for sins which most people outside the leadership structure knew nothing about... and even some inside the structure never knew.

    I've told Protestants to be careful who they point fingers at because they're next. And unlike the Catholic Church, they have no obvious infrastructure for addressing abuse claims. When the Catholic Church's disciplinary instruments are used properly, I can sort of understand where outsiders might consider the Church's disciplinary measures to be borderline draconian.

    The most frustrating part for me is how the Catholic Church can be accused of being just like the rest of the world now. So often you see signs hanging somewhere saying "If you see something, say something". And that policy works too... right up until the point where the authorities need to take action. And invariably, the authorities do precisely squat and a lot of people end up suffering for it. It reaches a level where it happens so often that you almost have to wonder if the authorities are corrupt, complicit in the atrocities that happen when valid warnings are ignored.

    You see it all the time with police departments ignoring credible intelligence regarding potential terrorists. After a while, only a fool wouldn't start to question if the police aren't somehow in on it.

    And now the same can be said of the Catholic Church. The cover-ups have happened too often for too long in too many geographically disparate areas.

    Nevertheless, this is the Church which Our Lord founded. Woe is he who scandalizes the faithful. I would think that's especially true of clergy. It chills my blood to think what may be in store for some of them in the life to come.
     
  6. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think Protestants are more aware of corruption in the Catholic Church than Catholics are.

    Protestants have scandals too.

    When one part of the body hurts - we all hurt.

    But we will not be prevailed against.
     
  7. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    I think that God will purify His Church but the chastisement might be horrible

    I think that Modernist ideas have been growing in the Church for about 150 years with the past 50 years being especially bad and this has helped the sexual corruption spread

    We need to return to the traditional faith and traditional morality if we want this to get better
     
  8. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    Just to put this in here, our parish has a good priest who knows how to shepherd his parish.

    Every mass we say a prayer for those who have been damaged by the wolves, whether they are clergy or laity.
    Our Priest takes notes and calls those wolves to strict account, including (in the case of clergy) a public apology as part of their penance, if the offence happened in public. Even if that clergy outranks him.

    He means business because he wants a clean parish, and he also doesn't want the results of such goings on to be held against him in the hereafter, because he did nothing.

    He is cleaning house, taking action, and repairing what damage he can to the lives of those parishioners who have been adversely affected by priests who have come before him.
     
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  9. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I think Rome has suffered corruption and sex scandal but Pope Benedict really got it right, that whole age of free love was a disaster. Protestantism was far from immune, society left deep influence on the church and corruption is putting it mildly.
     
  10. Snoder

    Snoder Member

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    It is the same as the general population. The only difference is the amount of media attention and the ease at which victims can now come forward. The world is full of sexual victims who were powerless and afraid at first.

    It's not a thing of the past and it will never be a thing of the past.
     
  11. Markie Boy

    Markie Boy Looking East, Moving Slow Supporter

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    I have a view not shared by many. The Church is full of corruption, to the point that it can not fix itself anymore. Like I have heard it put - The bishops can't fix the problem, they ARE the problem.

    On top of it, the average Catholic isn't overly aware, and many are pretty indifferent.

    I believe the Church has not been whole since East and West split - 1054 or 1204 - depending on how you look at it. Both East and West need some of what the other has, but there seems to be too much pride on each side to admit this.

    I generally seem to see that pride in the clergy much more than the laity.

    I attend Mass weekly, but I don't expect Catholicism to recover soon. Those in charge of the Church have not even admitted the problem yet.

    This is what I struggle with: The Church has two elements, like Jesus was both man and God, the Church has a physical element, the institution, and a spiritual element, the Kingdom of Heaven. There appear to be many that are in the institution and running it, that have not entered the Kingdom.

    Those in the Kingdom will never fail, but the institution literally could, and is before our eyes, failing.

    The East never had a reformation, or a Vatican II. I no longer look to the Trad Catholic perspective as the answer - it's often too narrow. And to clarify - I'm very conservative - not suggesting women ordination or anything.

    I have seen two people with much theology training change their view on allowing married men become clergy. They agree there are not enough called to both celibacy and ministry - those are two separate callings. Until this changes, we will not have enough good men in places of influence to change things in the institution.
     
  12. packermann

    packermann Junior Member

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    I know that Protestants also have their problems, but sadly I think we will have it far worse - for the following reasons:

    1. You mentioned the disciplinary procedures we have, but that is most disturbing. Although we the procedures, our Church hierarchy is not using them! That is happening over and over again! Take Cardinal Wuerl. He has countless times actively covered up the sexual predator priest. And now he is still part of Pope Francis inner circle. Cardinal McCarrick has been raping teenage boys for decades. Pope Benedict XVI took away his faculties, but Pope Francis reinstated him, even though Archbishop Vigano testified that he personally told the pope what McCarrick had done and that Benedict XVI had disciplined him.

    2. The Devil is more threatened by the Catholic Church than any other church, which makes it logical that he would work much harder to infiltrate the Catholic Church than any other church.

    3. A woman named Bella Dodd converted to the Catholic Church through Bishop Fulton Sheen. She confessed (and I think she testified before Congress) that she was a Russian spy given a mission to have other Russian spies infiltrated into the Church with the purpose of corrupting the Church. She said that she was able to get 1,000 spies into the Church, this was in the early 1900's. And I would not be surprised that the Freemasons also infiltrated the Church. Read the book Infiltration by Taylor Marshall that talks about this.

    I think this is the root problem. I think many of our bishops no longer take hell seriously. Archbishop Robert Barron said that we have a "reasonable hope that everyone will go to heaven". There is a YouTube on this. I have not heard any American bishop criticizing Barron for saying this. Other bishops do not come right out and say that they do not believe in hell but it shows in their nonchalant attitude to these scandals. A priest, Fr. Jame Martin, has been going to different churches and telling them that "homosexuality is a gift from God" and no American bishop has spoken up against him! What is going on here!!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  13. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    I'm familiar with the theories about Masonic infiltration of the Church. I... don't know what to think, tbh. The theories are a bit too sound to instantly dismiss them as crackpot nonsense.

    I dunno...
     
  14. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Lord have mercy. My grandmother was a lifelong Catholic and it really hurt deep to see her ask in her will that she specifically not be given any kind of Catholic funeral or be in any way associated with the RCC. She died only a little while after the revelation of abuse in the modern RCC, which really destroyed her faith. I can only hope that in the same way she still kept the crosses that she had collected while travelling the world up in her dining room, in addition to religious art and icons she found in Egypt and Russia, she may have somehow kept some sort of faith in Christ in her heart, and that this will be accepted by Christ, the Just Judge, despite her personal pessimism towards the Church she was raised in, which was clearly motivated by personal feelings of pain and betrayal. It warmed my heart when a family friend, who lived in NY and hence didn't know anything about my grandmother's request (my family is mostly in CA), had a mass said in her name when he learned of her passing. Lord, accept the supplications of Your servants.

    It is just gutting to think of how many other people are like her: lifelong faithful Catholics who just couldn't/can't do it anymore after so much of this stuff. There's only been more since she died. None of you guys, the everyday faithful in the pews, deserve any of this. It is a scandal and a tragedy, and I really do hope that something is done about it to deal with it and put an end to it, for the sake of the name of Christ our God which is profaned by the wickedness of those who commit and cover up for satanic acts.
     
  15. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    Markie, I share some of your thoughts. I do see the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church as essentially, One. Divided, yet a whole. Meant to be a whole.

    There are differences, but we have way too much in common for us to be too dismissive. Or unkind. I think it is good to look at each other as fellow Christians first, and pray for everyone to come back Home.
     
  16. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    The Oriental and Assyrian Churches are in there, too! We're all pretty darn close, in many ways. Even conservative, prayerful, wise Protestants have a lot in common with us spiritually, in many respects. We should be hopeful.
     
  17. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    This is a very interesting post! There's only one problem.
    It looks at the Church, sees the problems which are now beginning to be acknowledged, but it stops there.
    It's the Church as seen from the viewpoint of the pew, and that's a valid point of criticism if all we want is change.

    But the one problem is that we need to change our focus before we attempt to change the Church.

    The Church was always meant to be governed (shepherded) from the top downward for the benefit of those in the pews (the flock).
    But what has changed over the years is that whenever the focus of those who governed shifted off the welfare (both worldly and spiritually) of the flock and shifted to focus only on the Earthly welfare of those who led or those who followed, the Church went downhill.
    Does "Liberty, Fraternity, Equality" ring a bell???

    We're seeing that today in both the reaction by the Clergy to the sexual abuse of the flock by the clergy, as well as in the rise of liberal clergy who promote acceptance, brotherhood, and equality as being more import than preparation for Heaven, living a Godly life, and encouraging others to do so as well.
    In other words, Clergy against Clergy.

    Those are two of the prongs in a three-pronged attack against the Church today.
    Who can name the third prong?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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  18. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater Jesus Christ conquers! Supporter

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    Corruption is a problem in the church, but even more so the increasing influence of liberation theology and the growth of relativism within the vatican itself.
    If we turn our back to our catholic identity and our heritage then what else can we except?
    When we're faithless and become of the world then the gateway's open for all kinds of sins.

    If we want to deal with corruption as a church then we'll need to repent as a church. From the pope and down to the laity in the pews.

    Our times reminds me a lot of the apostaties of the Jews in the OT. As they turn away from the Lord they're handed over to sin and evil. They suffer from sin and slavery as long as it takes for them to realize their apostasy and repent.

    How long does it take for us? One pontificate? two? three or multiple?
     
  19. Markie Boy

    Markie Boy Looking East, Moving Slow Supporter

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    I have thought the same thing - just like in the book of Judges, or most of the Old Testament really.

    And we have bad bishops - some are actual criminals, some are just publicly terrible teachers of heresy like Robert Barron. But how many bishops are actually speaking out against this? I think there are 264 active bishops in the US - do more than 1% of them actually speak out against this stuff? Probably not more than 3% really - leaving us 97% poor leaders - that looks about right from what we see.

    Only time we hear from our bishop is when they play his video to ask for money.
     
  20. Markie Boy

    Markie Boy Looking East, Moving Slow Supporter

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    I give up - what's the third?
     
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