What about Hyperdulia?

[DD2008]

I believe that the stain of sin comes from the male line. Since Christ's Father is God he had no stain of sin. Mary's father was Joachim according to legend. He was not God. He was just a man like the rest of us. Mary had the stain of sin. That doesn't matter because the stain of sin can't be tranmitted by a female.

Link: http://www.carm.org/federal-headship

 

[judechild]

the context! it is clearly talking about the creation order. Man is lower than angels, and that includes Mary. No?
Was mary not human?

The context shows that the first part of verse 7 is speaking about humanity, and the rest is only about Jesus?

And now we return to why a human is below an angel; why is it only legalism? It is a factor of relationships, not of a food chain. Angels are sinless, and so they are closer to God because they have a more perfect relationship; it stands to reason that if Mary were sinless, she would have a more perfect relationship as well.

All is very clear in Rom 3:23 and chpt five. Answer me this. If there are exemptions to the "all", then that would mean that they were of another creation? ok..what creation then? There are only 2 headships. Was there some other headship mary was born in? Had Enoch or Elijah had not been taken, they would have died.

I have repeatedly said there is only one creation. Mary is human, but can not God extend Grace where He wishes?

As for Enoch and Elijah... but they didn't die, did they?

Now look at this>>Rom 3:10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
That confirms the "all".

Alone, no, Mary could not be righteous; but just as Elijah and Enoch's lack of death does not invalidate "All have tasted death" so could Mary's "Full of Grace" not invalidate righteousness. Also, "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful" (James 5:16). Paul in 3:10 is reaffirming that no one can earn salvation.

Do you have scriptural proof that she did not die?

You know I am not sola scriptura, and so I do not require an explicit verse because I aknowledge Sacred Tradition. If, however, you believed in Mary's sinlessness, and you knew that death came through sin (Gen. 2:17, Romans 5:12), would you believe that Mary did not die?

Diversion! Paul talked of the grace in him, and he sinned, just like mary.

Pardon? You said people other then Mary are named "Full of Grace;" show me.

Your burden is to show me what other headship she was born under, if it was not Adam.What else was she born under, was there a third Adam?

I wasn't aware I had a burden, considering this whole thread is only asking me about my personal experiences with Mary and "Hyper-dulia"... right?

Mary was prophesized in Genesis three as the woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpant; the passage says there is "enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her's" (Gen. 3:15). Enmity means they are completely opposed; "the woman" cannot have enmity between her and the serpant if she has sin (the "offspring" of the serpant).

Because of her obedience which brought Salvation to the world, she has become (as I've already explained) the New Eve. As the old Eve was mother of death (sin), so Mary is the Mother of Life (Jesus). Eve also was created without sin; so was Mary, otherwise there would be no enmity between her and the devil.

She was born under law, she sinned.

Jesus also was born under the law: "When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal 4:4).

Why did she go to the temple on the day of atonement? Can you show me scripture to show that she was prevented from original sin? The bible says the opposite.

The Bible does not say "And Mary sinned," so I do not believe it says the opposite. She went to the temple on the day of atonement because of her obedience; why was Jesus Baptized in a baptism of repentance? ("[John the Baptist] went throughout the whole region of the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins... and Jesus also had been baptized." - Luke 3:3, 21).

If she was sinless, she would have to have been prevented from original sin; hence, if I believe she is sinless, I must believe she was prevented from original sin.

Oh come on. Surely you jest?

I am quite serious.

All scripture says that Jesus was the only sinless one. Show me one ..one verse that says there was another sinless one? Then I quess you think that we could be atoned through Mary too?

Why do you insist on this? I do not understand why you feel the need to be so disrespectful. I want to honestly discuss this, if you please...

You know that I do not believe we can be atoned through Mary, and I have explained numerious times that she needed her savior, as she herself acknowledges. As you said, if Enoch and Elijah had not been taken taken up, they would have died; so too, if Mary had not been saved from sin before it claimed her, she would have sinned as well.

The whole idea was that it says Jesus knew no sin, in 2 Cor 5:21, it does not say Mary. Why did mary need a saviour?

Luke 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Have you read my previous post? I quoted the same scripture to show that Mary needed her savior; please see my answer above. She was simply saved before she was born; God can do that, can't He?

Not worship.

Thank you, but He did honor her, right? New question: did He honor her imperfectly?

In fact..look at this. Jesus put her among all people..

Not exactly the "Queen of heaven" huh?

31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

And I say amen, because it is true that we are a part of God's family, and that blood relation to Jesus alone means very little, but consider that Mary in fact "does the will of God." She does it in such a way that Salvation becomes available to all people ("my eyes have seen your salvation" - Luke 2:30). Jesus does not say "my mother is not blessed."

Catholics believe in the trinity. Show me sinless Mary verses..how about just one please?

Yes, I believe in the Trinity, but don't you say that my seeing mary as sinless is only a "speculation" because there is not an explicit reference? Pardon, but I am attempting to explain my reasoning, it will simply take a few posts.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

hmm
#1 Mary is full of Grace!
#2 Mary is in need of a Savior
#3 tho I disagree with it all, there needs to be made mention that their is a difference between having a mediator, and an intercessor. WE are ALL intercessor's.
#4 we first need to determine if the Saints in heaven can indeed here our prayers? What is it about being in paradise and finally with the Lord, that would actually GIVE them the ability to here our prayers?
#5 If Saints CAN here us, what is the purpose of using Prayer? the only time prayer is ever used or mentioned in Scriptures it is used with and TO God, no one else.
#6 if we are to agree with proposition 5 then there needs to be a definition of what exactly you are doing by saying "Oh Mary pray for me"
#7 Does God really listen to our prayers more intently if we try to get a positive answer through the Mother of God Mary?
#8 would the attempts to "pressure" God into answering you through the use of saints and Mary be considered Vain prayer?
......to be continued

 

[laconicstudent]

YouTube - It Is Truly Meet

​

 

[Frogster]

The issue here is that you're presuming, presuably unconsciously, that God has no power over Time. You and I are saved by the Atomement, that Jesus's self-sacrifice overrides, eradicates the effect of any sins committed by those who give themselves to Him. The Atonement is the cause, our salvation the effect.

But what about the righteous Jews? Those who died before His Atonment? What about a hypothetical person who heard Him in His earthly ministry and believed, then came to his/her death on the original Maundy Thursday, the day before He voided out sin by His Crucifixion? Are not they saved by the retroactive application of His Atonement?

For the Catholic, Mary's being deemed sinless is another instance of this -- in order that she be a fit vessel to contain the Incarnation within her womb, God kept her sinless, not by some special miracle and not by her own merits, but because He applied Christ's Atonement to her retroactively, from the moment of her conception.

It's not a doctrine I accept -- but it's not that hard to grasp. The focus is still on His saving grace.

Actually I understand your point. It went all the way back to Adam. Even justified Abraham. But what sin were they, Abraham and Mary justified from? They were still in Adam.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Frogster]

The context shows that the first part of verse 7 is speaking about humanity, and the rest is only about Jesus?

And now we return to why a human is below an angel; why is it only legalism? It is a factor of relationships, not of a food chain. Angels are sinless, and so they are closer to God because they have a more perfect relationship; it stands to reason that if Mary were sinless, she would have a more perfect relationship as well.



I have repeatedly said there is only one creation. Mary is human, but can not God extend Grace where He wishes?

As for Enoch and Elijah... but they didn't die, did they?



Alone, no, Mary could not be righteous; but just as Elijah and Enoch's lack of death does not invalidate "All have tasted death" so could Mary's "Full of Grace" not invalidate righteousness. Also, "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful" (James 5:16). Paul in 3:10 is reaffirming that no one can earn salvation.



You know I am not sola scriptura, and so I do not require an explicit verse because I aknowledge Sacred Tradition. If, however, you believed in Mary's sinlessness, and you knew that death came through sin (Gen. 2:17, Romans 5:12), would you believe that Mary did not die?



Pardon? You said people other then Mary are named "Full of Grace;" show me.



I wasn't aware I had a burden, considering this whole thread is only asking me about my personal experiences with Mary and "Hyper-dulia"... right?

Mary was prophesized in Genesis three as the woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpant; the passage says there is "enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her's" (Gen. 3:15). Enmity means they are completely opposed; "the woman" cannot have enmity between her and the serpant if she has sin (the "offspring" of the serpant).

Because of her obedience which brought Salvation to the world, she has become (as I've already explained) the New Eve. As the old Eve was mother of death (sin), so Mary is the Mother of Life (Jesus). Eve also was created without sin; so was Mary, otherwise there would be no enmity between her and the devil.



Jesus also was born under the law: "When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal 4:4).



The Bible does not say "And Mary sinned," so I do not believe it says the opposite. She went to the temple on the day of atonement because of her obedience; why was Jesus Baptized in a baptism of repentance? ("[John the Baptist] went throughout the whole region of the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins... and Jesus also had been baptized." - Luke 3:3, 21).

If she was sinless, she would have to have been prevented from original sin; hence, if I believe she is sinless, I must believe she was prevented from original sin.



I am quite serious.



Why do you insist on this? I do not understand why you feel the need to be so disrespectful. I want to honestly discuss this, if you please...

You know that I do not believe we can be atoned through Mary, and I have explained numerious times that she needed her savior, as she herself acknowledges. As you said, if Enoch and Elijah had not been taken taken up, they would have died; so too, if Mary had not been saved from sin before it claimed her, she would have sinned as well.



Have you read my previous post? I quoted the same scripture to show that Mary needed her savior; please see my answer above. She was simply saved before she was born; God can do that, can't He?



Thank you, but He did honor her, right? New question: did He honor her imperfectly?



And I say amen, because it is true that we are a part of God's family, and that blood relation to Jesus alone means very little, but consider that Mary in fact "does the will of God." She does it in such a way that Salvation becomes available to all people ("my eyes have seen your salvation" - Luke 2:30). Jesus does not say "my mother is not blessed."



Yes, I believe in the Trinity, but don't you say that my seeing mary as sinless is only a "speculation" because there is not an explicit reference? Pardon, but I am attempting to explain my reasoning, it will simply take a few posts.

In light of your pm,which was very kind. I will not counter this. I understand. God bless, and nice chatting. Frogster.

 

[Frogster]

hmm
#1 Mary is full of Grace!
#2 Mary is in need of a Savior
#3 tho I disagree with it all, there needs to be made mention that their is a difference between having a mediator, and an intercessor. WE are ALL intercessor's.
#4 we first need to determine if the Saints in heaven can indeed here our prayers? What is it about being in paradise and finally with the Lord, that would actually GIVE them the ability to here our prayers?
#5 If Saints CAN here us, what is the purpose of using Prayer? the only time prayer is ever used or mentioned in Scriptures it is used with and TO God, no one else.
#6 if we are to agree with proposition 5 then there needs to be a definition of what exactly you are doing by saying "Oh Mary pray for me"
#7 Does God really listen to our prayers more intently if we try to get a positive answer through the Mother of God Mary?
#8 would the attempts to "pressure" God into answering you through the use of saints and Mary be considered Vain prayer?
......to be continued

I don't quite getcha.

 

[judechild]

hmm
#1 Mary is full of Grace!

True.

#2 Mary is in need of a Savior

Yes.

#3 tho I disagree with it all, there needs to be made mention that their is a difference between having a mediator, and an intercessor. WE are ALL intercessor's.

True, as St. Paul says: "With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones..." (Eph 6:18). Clearly, "supplication" is asking God's favor or blessing on another's (holy ones) lives; this is an intercessory role.

#4 we first need to determine if the Saints in heaven can indeed here our prayers? What is it about being in paradise and finally with the Lord, that would actually GIVE them the ability to here our prayers?

God is the God of the living: "He is not God of the dead, but fof the living, for to Him all are alive" (Luke 20:38). A lot can be accomplished by asking: right now, are you a member of Christ's Body (1 Cor. 12:12-26)? If so, when you die, are you still a member of Christ's Body? And if you are still a member of Christ's Body after your passing from this life, and it pleased God to make us all interdependent "the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I do not need you,' nor again the head to the feet, 'I do not need you'" (1 Cor. 12:21), it makes sense that those "who have gone before" would make intercession for us.

As to what would give them the ability to hear our prayers, I don't know because I haven't died yet. The same God who gave us the ability to hear soundwaves can undoubtedly give the same ability in greater portion to those who are now closer to Him then ever before.

We see in Revelation, for example, that the angels are constantly involved in intercession: "Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. / The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel" (Rev. 8:3-4). In the Book of 2 Maccabees, "Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man... was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community" (2 Mac 15:12); Onias had died years before, as had Jeremiah: "Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity... Onias then said of him 'This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city'" (15:13-14). Whether or not you accept this as inspired, it shows the belief that the dead are still alive.

#5 If Saints CAN here us, what is the purpose of using Prayer? the only time prayer is ever used or mentioned in Scriptures it is used with and TO God, no one else.

The purpose of praying to saints is the same as asking another person to pray for you or your situation, and there are plenty of examples of that kind of praying (prayer, of course, originally means only 'to ask'). A good example would be Moses' intercession during the battle at Rephidim:

"At Rephidim, Amalek came and waged war against Israel... Moses had climbed to the top of the hill with Aaron and Hur. / As long as Moses kept his hands raised up, Israel had the better of the fight, but when he let his hands rest, Amalek had the better of the fight" (Ex. 17:8, 11).

I once asked an Assembles of God pastor to pray for me, and he said he didn't believe in asking another person for prayer...

#6 if we are to agree with proposition 5 then there needs to be a definition of what exactly you are doing by saying "Oh Mary pray for me"

Essentially the same thing as when I say "Oh 'Searching for Christ', pray for me." Except that Mary is the Mother of God, and so has an extremely close relationship to Him.

#7 Does God really listen to our prayers more intently if we try to get a positive answer through the Mother of God Mary?

St. james says "the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful" (James 5:16). This would be because the "righteous person" has a closer relationship with God, and so the person's will and God's Will are beginning, or continuing, to unite. Mary did God's Will throughout her life, and so we believe she has an especially close relationship to Him. We know that Jesus honored her perfectly.

#8 would the attempts to "pressure" God into answering you through the use of saints and Mary be considered Vain prayer?

Would you say I am "using" you to tip God's hand if I ask you to pray for me? Or if I pray to God, am I trying to pressure God? As when we ask another to pray for us, we are asking God to grant us Grace through the intercession of another; we acknowledge our inter-dependance. For a personal example, when I am tempted to a certain sin, I will ask for St. Dominic Savio to pray for me simply by saying "Dominic, pray for me." Often times, the temptation lessens. It is not Dominic himself, without God, that is able to disipate temptation, but God through his intercession is granting the Grace necessary to resist.

 

[DD2008]

The purpose of praying to saints is the same as asking another person to pray for you or your situation.

No it isn't. You are in the same situation as a person you can see and ask to pray for you. You are both alive.

When you ask dead people to pray for you, you are praying to them in faith that they are able to hear you to then petition God on your behalf.

Jesus and the apostles taught us to pray to God, not dead people or angels.

 

[Frogster]

No it isn't. You are in the same situation as a person you can see and ask to pray for you. You are both alive.

When you ask dead people to pray for you, you are praying to them in faith that they are able to hear you to then petition God on your behalf.

Jesus and the apostles taught us to pray to God, not dead people or angels.

Exactly. God told em don't contact the dead. He obviously knew they were somewhere, but said dead. Once they leave this life they are classified as dead.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exactly. God told em don't contact the dead. He obviously knew they were somewhere, but said dead. Once they leave this life they are classified as dead.

Or they could be the "walking dead" even as they live

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them.
[Isaiah 60:2,3/John 1:4]

 

[Secundulus]

Why no teachings or mention of Mary from the epistles? Paul talked about head coverings, why not hyperdulia?

Hey, gimmie a break, I am Italian, and I talk with my hands, hence alot of emoticons

The gospel of Luke IS Paul's Gospel. It speaks more about Mary than any of the others.

His Epistles were written for other purposes to address specific issues.

 

[Frogster]

Or they could be the "walking dead" even as they live

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them.
[Isaiah 60:2,3/John 1:4]

I don't getcha?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The issue here is that you're presuming, presuably unconsciously, that God has no power over Time. You and I are saved by the Atomement, that Jesus's self-sacrifice overrides, eradicates the effect of any sins committed by those who give themselves to Him. The Atonement is the cause, our salvation the effect.

But what about the righteous Jews? Those who died before His Atonment? What about a hypothetical person who heard Him in His earthly ministry and believed, then came to his/her death on the original Maundy Thursday, the day before He voided out sin by His Crucifixion? Are not they saved by the retroactive application of His Atonement?

For the Catholic, Mary's being deemed sinless is another instance of this -- in order that she be a fit vessel to contain the Incarnation within her womb, God kept her sinless, not by some special miracle and not by her own merits, but because He applied Christ's Atonement to her retroactively, from the moment of her conception.

It's not a doctrine I accept -- but it's not that hard to grasp. The focus is still on His saving grace.

Thank you for the unusually fair presentation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception; even from someone, such as yourself, who do not espouse it.

 

[Frogster]

The gospel of Luke IS Paul's Gospel. It speaks more about Mary than any of the others.

His Epistles were written for other purposes to address specific issues.

Why didn't Paul teach about hyperdulia? Nor Peter, James, nor John or highly intelligent Luke? Paul taught about other church things, yet not hyperdulia.

Why no great commendations about Mary in Acts, or the epistles?

Just this with other FAMILY MEMBERS.


Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.


Something must be wrong with the men of God to ignore Mary.

 

[narnia59]

Why didn't Paul teach about hyperdulia? Nor Peter, James, nor John or highly intelligent Luke? Paul taught about other church things, yet not hyperdulia.

Why no great commendations about Mary in Acts, or the epistles?

Just this with other FAMILY MEMBERS.


Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.


Something must be wrong with the men of God to ignore Mary.

My two cents as to 'why'?

Because she was still living during most of the writing, and they were trying to protect her. Can you imagine what a Saul of Taursus would have done with the prize catch of the mother of Christ, especially if he believed Christians held her in high esteem?

Therefore, Luke constructed parallels in his Gospel to ensure that those reading who were familiar with the Old Testament would clue in to the fact that the Ark of the Covenant was the typology of Mary, and John wrote the book of Revelation so it would associate the Ark with the mother of Christ. Along with the oral tradition they were instructing their successors to "hold fast to" was the understanding of these things imaged in the writings, thus passing these things on without endangering her.

 

[narnia59]

Thank you for the unusually fair presentation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception; even from someone, such as yourself, who do know espouse it.

I'd like to second that. People can discuss the doctrines based upon their actuality, and agree to disagree. It's nice when that's what happens instead of the doctrines being warped into something they are not for others to then 'disagree' with.

 

[Frogster]

My two cents as to 'why'?

Because she was still living during most of the writing, and they were trying to protect her. Can you imagine what a Saul of Taursus would have done with the prize catch of the mother of Christ, especially if he believed Christians held her in high esteem?

Therefore, Luke constructed parallels in his Gospel to ensure that those reading who were familiar with the Old Testament would clue in to the fact that the Ark of the Covenant was the typology of Mary, and John wrote the book of Revelation so it would associate the Ark with the mother of Christ. Along with the oral tradition they were instructing their successors to "hold fast to" was the understanding of these things imaged in the writings, thus passing these things on without endangering her.

Well..pretty fair to think that Paul was not stupid, and knew Jesus had family.

The locals knew who was who, and where people lived.

 

[Maggie893]

No it isn't. You are in the same situation as a person you can see and ask to pray for you. You are both alive.

When you ask dead people to pray for you, you are praying to them in faith that they are able to hear you to then petition God on your behalf.

Jesus and the apostles taught us to pray to God, not dead people or angels.

I think this is the crux of the issue. As Catholics we believe that the soul never dies. Not that it dies and somewhere over the rainbow is restored to eternal life, but we believe that it never ceases. The body dies, yes but the soul is in the same condition the moment after the body dies as it was the moment before the body dies.

So therefore that very soul that while encumbered with flesh on earth is part of the body of Christ, it remains a part of the body of Christ, even more so as it encounters the full presence of the Lord.

We are still one body in Christ with those souls who are in His presence so we seek their prayers, just as we would in the flesh. We honor their lives on earth for their extraordinary holiness but not a single Catholic that I know "worships" these souls as they would the Lord.

The Lord is God and He alone is worthy of the highest praises.

 

[narnia59]

Well..pretty fair to think that Paul was not stupid, and knew Jesus had family.

The locals knew who was who, and where people lived.

Even the locals who were believers or at least not 'persecutors' could have been an issue as well. People thronged to the apostles, and wanted to be even in the 'shadow of Peter'. How much more so for the woman who was the mother of Christ? Downplaying her role while ensuring it was preserved in the images of Scripture and in the oral tradition was the ultimate means of 'honoring' her, imho.