Whats the worst that can happen?

golgotha61 · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Well an audible voice comming from the sky is a good way of comming across it.

Do you really believe you christians are the only ones who seek God out? Don't you realize people of other religions do it as well? And they are just as sincere, humble and honest in their efforts as you guys?

The only difference between them and you guys is you guys are born in a country where Christianity is dominate and they are born where a false God is dominant; thus you have an advantage that they don't have! Don't cha think a voice comming from the sky would even things up a bit? IMO that's the least he should do

Ken

Luke 16:27 So the rich man said, Then I beg you, father send Lazarus to my fathers house 16:28 (for I have five brothers) to warn them so that they dont come into this place of torment. 16:29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; they must respond to them. 16:30 Then the rich man said, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. 16:31 He replied to him, If they do not respond to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
This is an account of someone who wanted a message sent to earth from heaven that would appeal to our physical senses. The response was, there is already enough evidence in the scriptures to convince people that God is real and even if one came back from the dead (and Christ did) they will not believe. I just dont think an audible voice is going to have the affect you believe it will. I believe the unbelief in the world today is not the insufficiency of evidence but the stubbornness to submit to Gods authority.

I share your concern for other nations that may not have the Bible or biblical teachings but that is what the Christian is for, according to Matthew 28. We are His audible voice and the responsibility is on believers to make that voice heard.

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Thus far all you've done is tell me I've gotten it wrong. How aobut answering my question! Who is this "we" you were refering to?

K

Ok Ken, you are experiencing what is known as "apophatic theology." That's a big word I never heard of til CF, but the way G-d taught me for decades prior. Very often, the most He can get us to listen to is where we're wrong.

Now if you use the little blue arrow that shows up where you quote me, you can trace our conversation backwards to preserve context. (I wish the quote function here preserved it in the post but it doesn't, which makes things like this confusing.) If you do that you will see that it is YOU that began using this undefined pronoun which translates to my "we" you are asking about. And you used it to it refer to ... Christians.

Sorry if you found that confusing.

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Do you remember who you are talking to? I don't believe any God concept is accurate; they are all wrong. But I was not talking to you when I made that reply; I was talking to someone else who believes the Christian God is the one and only true God and all the other God's people worship are false. that's why I responded the way I did

K

Ok. Who is it that has the story of the elephant? Are you familiar with that? Anyway, Jesus is the only One who would have an accurate "concept of G-d," seeing as He came down from heaven.

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

Ken - you dismissed what this woman had to say. It deserves your attention! She tells you the Truth:

zaksmummy said:
My point remains the same though - people do not believe because of signs and wonders because although miracles are nice they are also fleeting - they believe because they seek God and he gives them a revelation of himself.

This is the way it works. (Yes, I recognize you don't see it that way from where you are now. I've been through that)

drich0150 · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
(reply) But being born in an environment where Christianity is dominant gives you more chances of becoming a good Christian than a person born in say. Iraq who is born in a Muslim environment and isnt even allowed to hear about Christianity; agree?

Click to expand...

christian (little c) I will use to describe the condition that Christ in Mt 7 describes: Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven...

Christianity (Large C) I will use to describe the Bride of Christ, The Church or the assembly of believers. That Christ and John also identifies as welcome into our Father's rest

The difference being is that some believers/christians only believe in the mechanics of belief or the works of faith used to justify themselves. I have also identified this condition as one believing in the faith of their fathers. This is often what gets passed down, just one or two generations outside of the truly faithful Christian. This condition of religiousness in not unique to christianity. is what corrupted the Pharisees and the church of the dark ages, it is also what most atheists and or non believers identify as the church now. you all seem to be able to pick up on this common thread of hypocrisy that christianity shares with the the Pharisees.
This in of itself can be a tremendous burden for a new believer to bear. sometimes one finds himself in a situation having to choose between your father and His faith, and God or the discrepancies found in the bible that invalidates some if not all what your father believed. Then it can come down to who or what do you love more? Your God or your father and his Idea of god.
Many Many do not choose God when faced with that choice.

That said, No one is born a Christian nor does any one inherit salvation. What you also must understand is that their isn't a minimum requirement of works one must do. We must simply be faithful to what we have been given. If that means church on every Sunday, opportunity for works in the community then that is what that individual is responsible for. However for someone woman living under a harsh Muslim state is not able to know God as the Christian, then she too is also responsible for whatever it is she has been given. We are told that we will be judged according to what we have been entrusted with. Not some arbitrary line in the sand some pope or well meaning church leader has dictated.

We all have our burdens to bear no one gets a free ride. but at the same time you will only be asked: What did you do with your knowledge of Christ. were you faithful to what you were given?

(reply) the problem is, most of the people who find him, find him in another religion than Christianity! They are finding Vinishu, Allah, Shiva, etc and not your Jesus
A voice from the sky will clear all that up dont cha think?

Click to expand...

What most are finding is not God. i have studied alot of the other religions for some time. All offer a sense of spirituality. what differers is what or to whom this spirituality centers on. For the most part this spirituality centers on a combination of themselves/enlightenment, community/Karma or the deity of God. Christianity is different in that it is not an expression of man that work out a sense of spirituality. It is God's effort or plan to reunite with those of us who want to be with Him. What truly separates the Christian from the rest of the pack is that None of the activities of a Christian, earn him the right to be with God. Our activities are an expression of our Love to God.

That is how things are supposed to work in Christianity as the bible describes it. However their are many who manifest a faith under the headlines of christianity that would more closely resemble one of the other faiths you listed. This is what that entitlement or growing up in our father's faiths looks like if left unchecked for a few generations.

For example, We have many who follow a prosperity doctrines that dictate or centers on the idea that God wants for you what you want for yourself. If you want something bad enough all you have to do is name that item with 100% faith and it shall be yours. They also believe that they can bend God's will if they simply show Him enough faith to match their own.

We also have many believers who Work out their beliefs and keep account of their good deeds verses their bad, as a way to tally their worthiness of Heaven.

Then we have those who worship the bible and God so intently that they forsake all others.

Many people search for God. The problem is that when they think they find them they try and mold Him in their image forsaking what He has said about Himself.

A voice from Heaven unless it was directed to everyone individually would only serve as fuel to whatever it is we already believe about God. That is why i said their would be wars amongst the body of believers.

Ken-1122 · Aug 30, 2011

Golgotha61 (quote) So the rich man said, Then I beg you, father send Lazarus to my fathers house 16:28 (for I have five brothers) to warn them so that they dont come into this place of torment. 16:29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; they must respond to them. 16:30 Then the rich man said, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. 16:31 He replied to him, If they do not respond to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

This is an account of someone who wanted a message sent to earth from heaven that would appeal to our physical senses. The response was, there is already enough evidence in the scriptures to convince people that God is real and even if one came back from the dead (and Christ did) they will not believe. I just dont think an audible voice is going to have the affect you believe it will.

(reply) Based upon what? Something that happened thousands of years ago? Well I based my opinion upon things that happen today. I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one huh?

(quote) I share your concern for other nations that may not have the Bible or biblical teachings but that is what the Christian

(reply) Christians lack credibility. A voice from the sky does not.
Christians cant reach everybody on earth, a voice from the sky can

K

docpotter · Aug 30, 2011

" reply) Christians lack credibility. A voice from the sky does not.
Christians can’t reach everybody on earth, a voice from the sky can "

Obviously Christians have reached you right ? So really why not let God worry about all the other people that you feel have not got the message : )

docpotter · Aug 30, 2011

Matthew 24:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is getting to every corner of the globe , as it was predicted to do 2, 000 years ago. The fact that some people have not heard of Christ in no way makes them unsavable by God .

BUT, it is us that know of Christ and choose to deny him that will be damned on judgment day , not those who've never heard of him .

Ken-1122 · Aug 30, 2011

Razontherock (quote) Ok Ken, you are experiencing what is known as "apophatic theology." That's a big word I never heard of til CF, but the way G-d taught me for decades prior. Very often, the most He can get us to listen to is where we're wrong

Now if you use the little blue arrow that shows up where you quote me, you can trace our conversation backwards to preserve context. (I wish the quote function here preserved it in the post but it doesn't, which makes things like this confusing.) If you do that you will see that it is YOU that began using this undefined pronoun which translates to my "we" you are asking about. And you used it to it refer to ... Christians.

Sorry if you found that confusing.

(reply) I have no idea what you are talking about; you obviously arent going to answer my question, lets just move on

(quote) Ok. Who is it that has the story of the elephant? Are you familiar with that? Anyway, Jesus is the only One who would have an accurate "concept of G-d," seeing as He came down from heaven

(reply) are you contradicting what you previously said? Before you said:

Why do you presume our concept of G-d is accurate in this country? Why do you assume whomever else you may be referring to, has an inaccurate concept of God?

Now you are saying Jesus would have an accurate concept of God, which means Christianity is right and Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Bahai, etc are all wrong and have an inaccurate concept of God! Which is it?

Ken - you dismissed what this woman had to say. It deserves your attention! She tells you the Truth:

Originally Posted by zaksmummy
My point remains the same though - people do not believe because of signs and wonders because although miracles are nice they are also fleeting - they believe because they seek God and he gives them a revelation of himself
This is the way it works. (Yes, I recognize you don't see it that way from where you are now. I've been through

(reply) If I dismissed her it is probably because she was talking about miracles, signs and wonders, which is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a voice from the sky clearing up all the misunderstandings everyone has about God; something totally different.

Ken

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

The statements that are plain as day, all of which you missed completely. Listening is a lost art?

Ken-1122 said:
(reply) I have no idea what you are talking about; you obviously arent going to answer my question, lets just move on

Intellectual dishonesty. The question has been answered repeatedly. In plain english!

Ken-1122 said:
(reply) are you contradicting what you previously said? Before you said:

Why do you presume our concept of G-d is accurate in this country? Why do you assume whomever else you may be referring to, has an inaccurate concept of God?

Now you are saying Jesus would have an accurate concept of God, which means Christianity is right and Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Bahai, etc are all wrong and have an inaccurate concept of God! Which is it?

No contradiction. You merely painted a false dichotomy.

Ken-1122 said:
Ken - you dismissed what this woman had to say. It deserves your attention! She tells you the Truth:

Originally Posted by zaksmummy
My point remains the same though - people do not believe because of signs and wonders because although miracles are nice they are also fleeting - they believe because they seek God and he gives them a revelation of himself
This is the way it works. (Yes, I recognize you don't see it that way from where you are now. I've been through

(reply) If I dismissed her it is probably because she was talking about miracles, signs and wonders, which is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a voice from the sky clearing up all the misunderstandings everyone has about God; something totally different.

Ken

You're talking about miracles, signs, and wonders. She's talking about ... (wait for it) ... miracles, signs, and wonders.

That would be, you know, NOT a valid reason to dismiss what she's saying

Ken-1122 · Aug 30, 2011

drich0150 said:
Ken-1122 said:

christian (little c) I will use to describe the condition that Christ in Mt 7 describes: Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven...

Christianity (Large C) I will use to describe the Bride of Christ, The Church or the assembly of believers. That Christ and John also identifies as welcome into our Father's rest

The difference being is that some believers/christians only believe in the mechanics of belief or the works of faith used to justify themselves. I have also identified this condition as one believing in the faith of their fathers. This is often what gets passed down, just one or two generations outside of the truly faithful Christian. This condition of religiousness in not unique to christianity. is what corrupted the Pharisees and the church of the dark ages, it is also what most atheists and or non believers identify as the church now. you all seem to be able to pick up on this common thread of hypocrisy that christianity shares with the the Pharisees.
This in of itself can be a tremendous burden for a new believer to bear. sometimes one finds himself in a situation having to choose between your father and His faith, and God or the discrepancies found in the bible that invalidates some if not all what your father believed. Then it can come down to who or what do you love more? Your God or your father and his Idea of god.
Many Many do not choose God when faced with that choice.

That said, No one is born a Christian nor does any one inherit salvation. What you also must understand is that their isn't a minimum requirement of works one must do. We must simply be faithful to what we have been given. If that means church on every Sunday, opportunity for works in the community then that is what that individual is responsible for. However for someone woman living under a harsh Muslim state is not able to know God as the Christian, then she too is also responsible for whatever it is she has been given. We are told that we will be judged according to what we have been entrusted with. Not some arbitrary line in the sand some pope or well meaning church leader has dictated.

We all have our burdens to bear no one gets a free ride. but at the same time you will only be asked: What did you do with your knowledge of Christ. were you faithful to what you were given?

What most are finding is not God. i have studied alot of the other religions for some time. All offer a sense of spirituality. what differers is what or to whom this spirituality centers on. For the most part this spirituality centers on a combination of themselves/enlightenment, community/Karma or the deity of God. Christianity is different in that it is not an expression of man that work out a sense of spirituality. It is God's effort or plan to reunite with those of us who want to be with Him. What truly separates the Christian from the rest of the pack is that None of the activities of a Christian, earn him the right to be with God. Our activities are an expression of our Love to God.

That is how things are supposed to work in Christianity as the bible describes it. However their are many who manifest a faith under the headlines of christianity that would more closely resemble one of the other faiths you listed. This is what that entitlement or growing up in our father's faiths looks like if left unchecked for a few generations.

For example, We have many who follow a prosperity doctrines that dictate or centers on the idea that God wants for you what you want for yourself. If you want something bad enough all you have to do is name that item with 100% faith and it shall be yours. They also believe that they can bend God's will if they simply show Him enough faith to match their own.

We also have many believers who Work out their beliefs and keep account of their good deeds verses their bad, as a way to tally their worthiness of Heaven.

Then we have those who worship the bible and God so intently that they forsake all others.

Many people search for God. The problem is that when they think they find them they try and mold Him in their image forsaking what He has said about Himself.

A voice from Heaven unless it was directed to everyone individually would only serve as fuel to whatever it is we already believe about God. That is why i said their would be wars amongst the body of believers.

Click to expand...

You answered a whole lotta questions and made a whole lotta points. But you neglected to answer the one question I asked you; Allow me to ask you again:

Would you agree that a person born in a country like the USA where Christianity is the dominant religion, would have more chances of becoming a Christian with a capital C (as you put it) than a person who is born in Iraq and spends his entire life never exposed to Christianity?

A simply yes or no will surfice

Ken

Ken-1122 · Aug 30, 2011

docpotter said:
" reply) Christians lack credibility. A voice from the sky does not.
Christians cant reach everybody on earth, a voice from the sky can "

Obviously Christians have reached you right ? So really why not let God worry about all the other people that you feel have not got the message : )

Because according to your bible, they are going to hell and I don't think that is right

K

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Because according to your bible, they are going to hell and I don't think that is right

K

Ever hear of a strawman?

docpotter · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Because according to your bible, they are going to hell and I don't think that is right

K

Well Ken , you do not think that is right . You also think God should do a shout out to all humanity saying Here I Am !! The thing is Ken, you are essentially saying I am smarter then God. I have better plan than God . I would do it this way. I wouldn't have a hell .

This is exactly what Satan did . He caused a mutiny in Heaven , taking 1/3 of all the angels with him. He said I can do it better then God , my ways are better , I am better.

Ken-1122 · Aug 30, 2011

Razontherock (quote) No contradiction. You merely painted a false dichotomy.

(reply) So do you believe Christian God is the true God and all the others are wrong? Is this your opinion or not.

(quote) You're talking about miracles, signs, and wonders. She's talking about ... (wait for it) ... miracles, signs, and wonders.
That would be, you know, NOT a valid reason to dismiss what she's saying

(reply) Actually I did not dismiss what she said; my reply is on the same page she posted. Go back and read it.

K

razeontherock · Aug 30, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
So do you believe Christian God is the true God and all the others are wrong? Is this your opinion or not.

"There is no G-d but the Lord." And He has spoken to our species in all times and in all places. Just because another's customs are different does not mean they are condemned. No part of Christianity is sitting around deciding membership like it was some exclusive Country Club.

Ken-1122 said:
Actually I did not dismiss what she said; my reply is on the same page she posted. Go back and read it.

I did read it. That's called dismissal. Callous dismissal. As in, you never considered what she said.

You'd want to do that now, if you really want answers.

docpotter · Aug 30, 2011

" (reply) So do you believe Christian God is the true God and all the others are wrong? Is this your opinion or not. "

YES

Iakobos · Aug 31, 2011

yeh, i'm hearing you OP. If sooo much is at stake then why wouldn't God give people a heads up? You could say it's our responsibility to seek Him out, but not everyone gets an appearance! So instead we are left with millions of people telling us they know the Truth. Spreading confusion and fear like a plague. Everyone acting as though they are right, and if your gullible enough you eat it right up.

Too many religions say their God/gods are True ones and christianity doesn't have a monopoly on "Holy Scripture." So i can't see how it is really that outrages to wonder what on earth is going on and who the heck is actually right, if anyone!

Not to mention how divisive it is when people start getting all superior, pushing their beliefs on everyone as if they KNOW the TRUTH. Faith knows nothing!

How can you be friends with someone who nods their head to the notion of "You, your family, your friends are all going to burn in hell, FOREVER! That what happens if you don't follow my faith, you deserve it!!!"

You can smile and act all nice but inside you support such sick, twisted and horrific beliefs. How can you live with yourself? seriously? I mean, even if i thought you were an arrogant, self-righteous know-it-all. I still wouldn't nod at the notion of you suffering for an eternity. Maybe i'm just crazy and it's normal to think of your neighbour as disposable trash.

Bottom line, i find it completely absurd that God will condemn you for an eternity based on the faith you chose. I find it very disturbing that others also support this notion.

Matariki · Aug 31, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Not unless he wanted to. Now why he would do such a ridicules thing, I have no idea.

Well, you asked the question.
I have no idea either and yes, it would be a ridiculous. That's why he doesn't.

Not after proof of his existence has been established

What proof do you require? Scientific proof? If thats the case, there's something you need to know. God can't be proven nor disproven by the means of natural philosophy. God exists outside of nature, he's supernatural. A creator doesn't need to be directly (or physically) connected with their creation in order to prove that it was made by them.

Because your written word has no more credibility with someone else than someone else’s written word has with you! Is the written word of the Koran or the Vedas good enough for you?

The Koran and Vedas are readily available; are they miracles as well?

I never said they weren't. I'm a Christian that believes that everything happens for a reason, if God wanted them to exist then they have existed for a reason. I would go as far as saying this is devine proof of freedom of choice. The law of Moses (Tawrat) is featured in the Koran just as it is in the bible, which proves a point of origin. As for the Vedas, unfortunately I lack the knowledge to voice an opinion on it and it would be wrong for me to do so until I have read and analyzed it. The credibility is based on faith first and foremost followed by the history and foundation on which its written on.

No more impressive than the survival of various other unsubstantiated ancient holy texts!

Which are you referring to? No more impressive? I would say as equally if not more impressing that other texts outside of the bible if not true have survived. God could of cleared such texts from existence. But God, unlike man, does not fear the choices that humanity makes or decides upon, on ultimately what they regard to be the truth.

But our senses and evidence is what effects our heart and our ability to submit.

What effects the choices we make is based upon what influences us.

If it be God, then evidence that man can conjure up is worthless in comparison to his intervention. If it be evidence and what we can feel naturally, then trying to see God based on those circumstances would be like looking through the wrong end of the telescope. You can't downsize God and he will not reveal himself to those that seek to use him. Given half the chance most of humanity, if not all, would seek to abuse his authority.

He didn’t in the Old Testament either; yet he was performing miracles on the regular! If he is the same God today that he was yesterday, why can’t he do what he did yesterday?

God is the same, yesterday and today, but here's the catch, we aren't. If he were preforming miracles on a daily basis sooner or later they would become commonplace, without meaning and without glory.

Hakan101 · Aug 31, 2011

Iakobos said:
yeh, i'm hearing you OP. If sooo much is at stake then why wouldn't God give people a heads up? You could say it's our responsibility to seek Him out, but not everyone gets an appearance! So instead we are left with millions of people telling us they know the Truth. Spreading confusion and fear like a plague. Everyone acting as though they are right, and if your gullible enough you eat it right up.

Too many religions say their God/gods are True ones and christianity doesn't have a monopoly on "Holy Scripture." So i can't see how it is really that outrages to wonder what on earth is going on and who the heck is actually right, if anyone!

Not to mention how divisive it is when people start getting all superior, pushing their beliefs on everyone as if they KNOW the TRUTH. Faith knows nothing!

How can you be friends with someone who nods their head to the notion of "You, your family, your friends are all going to burn in hell, FOREVER! That what happens if you don't follow my faith, you deserve it!!!"

You can smile and act all nice but inside you support such sick, twisted and horrific beliefs. How can you live with yourself? seriously? I mean, even if i thought you were an arrogant, self-righteous know-it-all. I still wouldn't nod at the notion of you suffering for an eternity. Maybe i'm just crazy and it's normal to think of your neighbour as disposable trash.

Bottom line, i find it completely absurd that God will condemn you for an eternity based on the faith you chose. I find it very disturbing that others also support this notion.

Troll much?

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