What’s the worst that can happen?

[docpotter]

This is a question I have heard many times in my life Ken , and I will try my best to answer it for you , but I will not get into a heated debate ok : )

God created us all with a " free will " , he doesn't want robots , he wants seekers. If He came down today and showed himself to everyone this would end the whole idea of faith, and seeking the creator . And that day will come , and at that point it will be too late to say I believe in God now ! He loves people that have faith and diligently look to find him.

God will in fact show himself to you or to anyone out there who simply seeks to find him. Jesus says " He who seeks me shall find me " I cannot tell you how true this is , and was in my life. He also says " Knock and the door shall be opened " . Your talking about the Author of life , Creator of all things , he wants US to seek HIM ! : )

 

[Ken-1122]

We have not been given full access of the knowledge of the existence of God so that we are able to live or express ourselves in accordance of our true natures. so that when we are judged their is no doubt in our minds to the righteousness of the judgment we will receive. If God removes all doubt in our minds about the existence of Himself then our actions will more so reflect our fear of Hell rather than who we really are and our thoughts/feelings towards God.. Which in turn will make this life pointless.

(reply) When you say "we have not been given full access to the knowledge of the existence of God" Who is this "WE" that you are refering to? Christians? or people who worship other Gods?
If you are referring to Christians; especially the ones who claim to have an ongoing personal relationship with God, they claim this knowledge already!
If you are referring to those of other religions, especially those who never heard of this God; I would argue that these people need this knowledge so they can make an informed decision to serve the correct God or not. anything less is unfair!

K

 

[Ken-1122]

According to Jewish tradition, He did, about 3500 years ago.

God offerered the Law to all the nations and they heard in their own language. Only Israel accepted the Law.

Threre is no proof that there is any truth to that tradition. If it were done today, with today's technology, there would be a permanent record of the event and no reasonable person would dare deny it

So again, what's the worse that can happen if he did it today?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

This is a question I have heard many times in my life Ken , and I will try my best to answer it for you , but I will not get into a heated debate ok : )

God created us all with a " free will " , he doesn't want robots , he wants seekers. If He came down today and showed himself to everyone this would end the whole idea of faith, and seeking the creator ........ He loves people that have faith and diligently look to find him.

I've heard this response many times in my life, and this response is extremely flawed for the following reasons:

* Proof of God will in no way turn anybody into a robot; otherwise everyone in Heaven will be robots
*Proof of God will in no way take away someone's freewill because they can still reject him in light of proof. All it does is allow them to make an informed decision; especially those who are born in an area of the world where they never heard of this God; they only heard of the false God that their parents worship.

But as you said before, I understand you don't want to get into a debate, and I respect that. Thanks for your reply

Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) When you say "we have not been given full access to the knowledge of the existence of God" Who is this "WE" that you are referring to? Christians? or people who worship other Gods?
If you are referring to Christians; especially the ones who claim to have an ongoing personal relationship with God, they claim this knowledge already!
If you are referring to those of other religions, especially those who never heard of this God; I would argue that these people need this knowledge so they can make an informed decision to serve the correct God or not. anything less is unfair!

K

"We" meaning Human Kind are not born with this intrinsic knowledge. We have to seek Him out and or decide what to do with the knowledge of God when we come across it.

 

[Ken-1122]

"We" meaning Human Kind are not born with this intrinsic knowledge. We have to seek Him out and or decide what to do with the knowledge of God when we come across it.

Well an audible voice comming from the sky is a good way of comming across it.

Do you really believe you christians are the only ones who seek God out? Don't you realize people of other religions do it as well? And they are just as sincere, humble and honest in their efforts as you guys?

The only difference between them and you guys is you guys are born in a country where Christianity is dominate and they are born where a false God is dominant; thus you have an advantage that they don't have! Don't cha think a voice comming from the sky would even things up a bit? IMO that's the least he should do

Ken

 

[docpotter]

I am very fortunate I was born in a Christian nation , great point Ken , I hope others realize that as well

 

[razeontherock]

(reply) When you say "we have not been given full access to the knowledge of the existence of God" Who is this "WE" that you are refering to? Christians? or people who worship other Gods?
If you are referring to Christians; especially the ones who claim to have an ongoing personal relationship with God, they claim this knowledge already!

Nope. You need to learn what we say, rather than putting (ill-fitting) words in our mouths.

If you are referring to those of other religions, especially those who never heard of this God; I would argue that these people need this knowledge so they can make an informed decision to serve the correct God or not. anything less is unfair!

K

And here you have unwittingly stumbled upon (at least partial) meaning of one of Jesus' harder sayings:

Luke 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"

FUN FACT: like most of Jesus' harder sayings, He is quoting the book of Enoch here. Since you're asking mostly about general knowledge, why do you suppose He would do that?

 

[razeontherock]

Do you really believe you christians are the only ones who seek God out? Don't you realize people of other religions do it as well? And they are just as sincere, humble and honest in their efforts as you guys?

The only difference between them and you guys is you guys are born in a country where Christianity is dominate and they are born where a false God is dominant;

Why do you presume our concept of G-d is accurate in this country? Why do you assume whomever else you may be referring to, has an inaccurate concept of God? I think G-d will Judge based on Faithfulness to what we have been exposed to. Scratch that, I'm sure of it.

 

[razeontherock]

According to Jewish tradition, He did, about 3500 years ago.

God offerered the Law to all the nations and they heard in their own language. Only Israel accepted the Law.

The OP challenged this Tradition, but I also hope you provide more detail about what that tradition is. I've never heard this before!

 

[zaksmummy]

Zaksmummy (quote) “God has already done this - twice
The first time was on Mt Sinai when he gave the people of Israel the Ten commandments, and the second time was at the feast of pentecost when the disciples went to the temple speaking in the languages of the visitors who had come to worship God in Jerusalem.

(reply) On Mt Sinai only Moses witnessed God, and he did believe. On the day of Pentecost, the disciples believed as well. Because everyone in your examples who witnessed God believed, your argument fails

Ken

The Targums (Jewish Aramaic Amplified Bible) says that on Mt Sinai God spoke the words of the ten commandments in tongues of fire which entered every person who was assembled in the Israelite camp as they were spoken. The key here is who were the people that were there? The answers is "a mixed multitude" - that is the children of Israel, yes, but also a large number of Egyptians who had left with them. Not all of them believed, but they had seen the power of God over the Pharaoh and wanted to leave Egypt.

My point remains the same though - people do not believe because of signs and wonders because although miracles are nice they are also fleeting - they believe because they seek God and he gives them a revelation of himself.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The OP challenged this Tradition, but I also hope you provide more detail about what that tradition is. I've never heard this before!

From the Jewish Encyclopedia article, Nations and Languages, the Seventy:

The word of God was pronounced on Mount Sinai in seventy languages (Shab. 88a; Ex. R. v.; comp. Acts ii. 5). The Torah was written in seventy languages in order that the nations should not be able to plead ignorance as their excuse for rejecting it (Tosef., Soṭah, viii.). Among the seventy languages the most noble is Hebrew, for in it was pronounced the creative word of God (Gen. R. xviii., xxxi.; Yalḳ., Gen. 52). The Jewish law required that every member of the Sanhedrin should have sufficient knowledge of the seventy languages to be able to do without an interpreter (Sanh. 17a; comp. Meg. 73b; Men. 65a).

Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - NATIONS AND LANGUAGES, THE SEVENTY:

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. You need to learn what we say, rather than putting (ill-fitting) words in our mouths.



And here you have unwittingly stumbled upon (at least partial) meaning of one of Jesus' harder sayings:

Luke 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"

FUN FACT: like most of Jesus' harder sayings, He is quoting the book of Enoch here. Since you're asking mostly about general knowledge, why do you suppose He would do that?

Thus far all you've done is tell me I've gotten it wrong. How aobut answering my question! Who is this "we" you were refering to?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Why do you presume our concept of G-d is accurate in this country? Why do you assume whomever else you may be referring to, has an inaccurate concept of God? I think G-d will Judge based on Faithfulness to what we have been exposed to. Scratch that, I'm sure of it.

Do you remember who you are talking to? I don't believe any God concept is accurate; they are all wrong. But I was not talking to you when I made that reply; I was talking to someone else who believes the Christian God is the one and only true God and all the other God's people worship are false. that's why I responded the way I did

K

 

[Ken-1122]

The Targums (Jewish Aramaic Amplified Bible) says that on Mt Sinai God spoke the words of the ten commandments in tongues of fire which entered every person who was assembled in the Israelite camp as they were spoken. The key here is who were the people that were there? The answers is "a mixed multitude" - that is the children of Israel, yes, but also a large number of Egyptians who had left with them. Not all of them believed, but they had seen the power of God over the Pharaoh and wanted to leave Egypt.

My point remains the same though - people do not believe because of signs and wonders because although miracles are nice they are also fleeting - they believe because they seek God and he gives them a revelation of himself.

I'm not familiar with what the Jewish Aramiac amplified Bible says; so I can't refute you on that, but any book that says a voice comming from the sky claiming to be God and clearing up all the misunderstandings people have of him will not cause anybody to convert, that book is plain wrong.
Look at how many people converted when somebody thought they saw the image of the virgin mary on the potato! If heaven rejoices over one lost soul, what do you think Heaven will do if millions convert?
A voice from the sky may not convince everybody you gotta admit, it will convert most

Ken

 

[elman]

I've heard this response many times in my life, and this response is extremely flawed for the following reasons:

* Proof of God will in no way turn anybody into a robot; otherwise everyone in Heaven will be robots
*Proof of God will in no way take away someone's freewill because they can still reject him in light of proof. All it does is allow them to make an informed decision; especially those who are born in an area of the world where they never heard of this God; they only heard of the false God that their parents worship.

But as you said before, I understand you don't want to get into a debate, and I respect that. Thanks for your reply

Ken

You seem to think it is a fact that proof of God's existence would not effect our ability to freely chose to be loving beings. I think not only is that not a fact but in fact proof of God's existence would effect our ability to become loving beings. It seems very reasonable to me that being in the presence of power that can speak the universe into existence would instill a fear that would effect how I make choices.

 

[Ken-1122]

You seem to think it is a fact that proof of God's existence would not effect our ability to freely chose to be loving beings. I think not only is that not a fact but in fact proof of God's existence would effect our ability to become loving beings. It seems very reasonable to me that being in the presence of power that can speak the universe into existence would instill a fear that would effect how I make choices.

What about the possibility of Hell punishment, or the reward of Heaven? do you think the existence of those places would have an effect on how you make your choices? Do they take away from your free will?

Ken

 

[bling]

A voice comming from the sky will not prevent people from being humble

K

Anyone can be humble, but we all seem to need help to be humble. The humility we need is not that of being amased by a voice from the ski, but being humbled by depending on the mercy of God.

 

[drich0150]

Well an audible voice coming from the sky is a good way of coming across it.

which would in turn destabilize the Faith based "religion" that he has set up.

Do you really believe you christians are the only ones who seek God out?

No.

Don't you realize people of other religions do it as well?

yes.

And they are just as sincere, humble and honest in their efforts as you guys?

Indeed.

The only difference between them and you guys is you guys are born in a country where Christianity is dominate and they are born where a false God is dominant; thus you have an advantage that they don't have!

Actually no, i disagree. Being born a "Christian" is often times what destroys a persons chance of establishing their own faith. Many many times, those who grow in in the faith of their fathers blur the lines between true worship and the mindless act of religious practice. "Not all those who comes to me saying Lord, Lord will I know."

We all have our crosses to bear and will be judged accordingly. Calling yourself a "Christian" does not make you one. In turn not knowing what to call yourself does not disqualify you from finding the atonement offered by Christ.

Don't cha think a voice coming from the sky would even things up a bit? IMO that's the least he should do

What if "His" values were focused on our Faithfulness and our efforts to find Him? What if the important thing is an all encompassing effort to find God and then once you have found Him share God with those in whom you love? If this is what God wants, then "A voice from the sky" Identifying one religion, on it's best day would find the same level of corruption the Pharisees knew. If God left "us" unchecked then wars would have to be fought to determine which brand of "christianity" reigned. None of which is consistent with how or what He has established in His new covenant.

As it is the righteously redeemed will find their reward, and those who are evil with find what they seek. "Christianity" is not a title we give to ourselves. (Even if it were God is not a respecter of the titles we give ourselves.) It is a condition of forgiveness and redemption bestowed upon the Righteous followers of God, who are faithful to what they have been given. what ever that may look like.

Look at the parable of the talents/bags of gold.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “Being born a "Christian" is often times what destroys a persons chance of establishing their own faith. Many many times, those who grow in in the faith of their fathers blur the lines between true worship and the mindless act of religious practice


(reply) But being born in an environment where Christianity is dominant gives you more chances of becoming a good Christian than a person born in say…. Iraq who is born in a Muslim environment and isn’t even allowed to hear about Christianity; agree?

(quote) “What if "His" values were focused on our Faithfulness and our efforts to find Him? What if the important thing is an all encompassing effort to find God and then once you have found Him share God with those in whom you love?”

(reply) the problem is, most of the people who find him, find him in another religion than Christianity! They are finding Vinishu, Allah, Shiva, etc and not your Jesus
A voice from the sky will clear all that up don’t cha think?

Ken