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MoreCoffee

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Change doesnt come at all.
The sooner we all accept progressives cannot win the battle against God - the better they will sleep at night.
Uh huh :p

So progressive revelation is out! Throw it away!!! ;)

So development of doctrine is out! Throw it away!!! ;)

No progress for us Catholics! Back we say! Back to the ancient world! Back to Platonic philosophy! Back to Aristotle as the measure of all things! :p:p:p

<many chuckles and an outright laugh or two>
:):) ;);) :D:D :p:p
 
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Erose

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I think it should be noted that no one thinks that the whole LCWR is tainted, there is no doubt that there are many good faithful nuns whose convents are still members of the LCWR. What the Vatican and many Catholics who keep up with what is going on in their Church are concerned with is the few who are tainting the whole.

We have all seen in the news these 'nuns' come out and contradict the teachings of the Church on abortion, gay-marriage, women priest, etc. So to think that these nuns are all Mother Teresa's that can do no wrong expresses either a total lack of knowledge on the situation or an sign of encouragement for those going out there attacking their own Church's teachings.

Should I assume that Fantine and Morecoffee supports the fringe nuns in these positions?
 
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MoreCoffee

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...

Should I assume that Fantine and Morecoffee supports the fringe nuns in these positions?
I do not support any positions. I think well of nuns who work for the betterment of the lot of elderly, infirm, poor, lonely, homeless, oppressed people. That's what I've stated repeatedly.

As for the theological glitches in some books or statements or interviews made by a few nuns, I think those are matters for the nuns involved and their ordinary, and if need be the Vatican can be involved if it wishes. Nobody should be denied natural justice. If any accusation is made then let it be dealt with fairly and properly in church courts and elsewhere. But please, let no OBOB person set self up as judge.

Be patient, let the processes work at their own pace, and pray for the good graces of the nuns and bishops and the Vatican. Stop the incendiary rhetoric in OBOB.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Uh huh :p

So progressive revelation is out! Throw it away!!! ;)

So development of doctrine is out! Throw it away!!! ;)

No progress for us Catholics! Back we say! Back to the ancient world! Back to Platonic philosophy! Back to Aristotle as the measure of all things! :p:p:p

<many chuckles and an outright laugh or two>
:):) ;);) :D:D :p:p
:doh:

The sounds of satan whispering to Eve - about change. ;)

God is constant - so are His Laws. He doesnt cater to our dictates - we cater to His.
Hope you grasp that sometime.

Doctrines do not change.

DISCIPLINES change - like priests being married or not. Doctrines dont change.

And before you think to suggest it - limbo was never a doctrine. Just so ya know.
 
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Erose

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I do not support any positions. I think well of nuns who work for the betterment of the lot of elderly, infirm, poor, lonely, homeless, oppressed people. That's what I've stated repeatedly.
Yeah but you have constantly repeated more than that and have expressed through your attempted ridicule of other posters an impression of protecting the nuns who have committed and advocate heretical positions and have done so in the public sphere.

As for the theological glitches in some books or statements or interviews made by a few nuns, I think those are matters for the nuns involved and their ordinary, and if need be the Vatican can be involved if it wishes. Nobody should be denied natural justice.
Well you finally got something right on this, there is a need for the Vatican to get involve because the nuns advocating heresy publicly are the leaders. So stop ridiculing the Vatican for doing its job.

If any accusation is made then let it be dealt with fairly and properly in church courts and elsewhere. But please, let no OBOB person set self up as judge.
for someone who likes to judge the Vatican for doing its job, it looks silly for you to accuse someone else of judging.

Be patient, let the processes work at their own pace, and pray for the good graces of the nuns and bishops and the Vatican. Stop the incendiary rhetoric in OBOB.
All I can say here is take your own advice and don't just assume the Vatican is wrong here.

One other point that needs to be made here is that the Vatican has already passed judgement. That part is already done the only thing left here is for the leadership LCWR to either do what the Vatican has told them or be disobedient and ignor the Vatican. The issue of the leadership of LCWR being in the wrong has already been determined.
 
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benedictaoo

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More gossip, gossip, gossip....

And so many men joining in the gossip, when we were always taught that gossip was a woman's province.

Maybe men just like to gossip when it involves trashing women.

Oh please.. you can't really look at any of those nuns and and call them "women" in that sense anyway. That's what cracks me up about feminist groups, femininity is no where to be found. There's nothing feminine about any of them. They look and act like a bunch of men and unattractive ones at that.

The Vatican would not have stepped in and admonished this bunch of nuns if all the claims against them were gossip.

This is where I trust the Church because this is bigger then them, the men, even they can't screw this up, even though I know they probably tried.

Its where you see the keys coming into play. Its the doctrines that are protected. This Church, THE Church will never ever teach us something that is false in the name of The Church.

These nuns were obviously teaching error to the point the deposit of faith was being jeopardized, compromised and in need of protection. THAT is exactly what the pope's job is, to transmit, protect, enforce the faith.

I know you want change, Fantine but *T*ruth does not change and no, we didn't get it wrong either for 2000 years. It is what it is.

I know you want progressiveness and women to be able to be men and choose and gays to get married and all that but as particular matters of the faith that Jesus taught us, these things is not what will save our souls. These things is what will make us happy while were here. What does it profit you to have the world and lose your soul? Not a whole lot...

So you and Silvo don't really love these people if you are willing to make it all about this life and not eternity. Its either you don't really love them because you are willing to sacrfice their souls for a little comfort in this world or you don't really believe in the after life... which is it?
 
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Fantine

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Oh please.. you can't really look at any of those nuns and and call them "women" in that sense anyway. That's what cracks me up about feminist groups, femininity is no where to be found. There's nothing feminine about any of them. They look and act like a bunch of men and unattractive ones at that.

If you wore a habit from the time you were a young teen and then changed to lay dress, you would still adopt the modest, low-maintenance style of someone who was dedicating her life to God. Short, easy-to-style hair. No makeup. Modest clothing in subtle colors. What you call "looking like a bunch of men" is because they do not focus on their outward appearance and the latest styles.

The Vatican would not have stepped in and admonished this bunch of nuns if all the claims against them were gossip.

It appears as if they admonished an organization for something that happened in the past that no longer takes place--organizational support of women's ordination. The LCWR has said that it never supported women's ordination after an official position was taken.

Other than that, they admonished them for individual statements by individual sisters who were not elected leadership members. Considering what a woeful job the male clergy did in preventing its members from molesting children, I am shocked that they would try to hold the LCWR responsible for mere "statements" by its members, which, as we all know, pale next to the crimes and misdemeanors of pedophiles.

I took two semesters of theology in college--in the late 1960's. The blessing I received was that the friar who taught them loved life. He was a positive, affirming, grateful person. In other words, he was truly holy. I don't remember much else other than that he was a model of real Christianity--but that, obviously, was the most important lesson. But my friends who have taken theology say that, on higher levels, it is a tableaux for big ideas. It is not a narrow, constricted, stranglehold designed to prevent people from thinking (which is why I've never wanted to study it) but a mind-expanding exercise.

And, since most of the sisters at this level of leadership have probably studied theology on the graduate level, then I imagine a speaker like Barbara Marx Hubbard would be a good fit.


This is where I trust the Church because this is bigger then them, the men, even they can't screw this up, even though I know they probably tried.

Its where you see the keys coming into play. Its the doctrines that are protected. This Church, THE Church will never ever teach us something that is false in the name of The Church.

These nuns were obviously teaching error to the point the deposit of faith was being jeopardized, compromised and in need of protection. THAT is exactly what the pope's job is, to transmit, protect, enforce the faith.

I know you want change, Fantine but *T*ruth does not change and no, we didn't get it wrong either for 2000 years. It is what it is.

Respectfully, I think that's a gross exaggeration fueled by media hysteria.

I know you want progressiveness and women to be able to be men and choose and gays to get married and all that but as particular matters of the faith that Jesus taught us, these things is not what will save our souls. These things is what will make us happy while were here. What does it profit you to have the world and lose your soul? Not a whole lot...

I certainly don't want women to be able to be men. I think that the sexes are complementary. That is why when organizations are led exclusively by one sex they are unbalanced. We need the insights and talents and gifts of ALL our people in a complex, rapidly changing world.

I don't subscribe to the paint-by-number course for getting to heaven, that's true. I think we learn something from every experience, and that every experience can bring us to sanctity. I don't look at gay relationships as being "all bad." I think, "What happens in the other 23 hours and 40 minutes of the day? Do they love one another unconditionally? Do they support one another emotionally? Do they communicate well?" We all learn about God through the unconditional love of other people, if we are lucky, and so a gay couple may actually lead one another towards God. When I see people with skewed views of God, "smiting" and "coming with a sword" I pray that they will find some love in their lives.


So you and Silvo don't really love these people if you are willing to make it all about this life and not eternity. Its either you don't really love them because you are willing to sacrfice their souls for a little comfort in this world or you don't really believe in the after life... which is it?

I think that we can find the kingdom of heaven on earth when we are mindful that God lives within each of us and in everyone we meet. Of course we need to love them, because God lives within them. We need to show them that they can be an immense power for good. And heaven is just a continuation of that experience on a different level.

I don't think that heaven is something we "earn" but rather something we "realize" by living in God's presence each moment of our lives.
 
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benedictaoo

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Well fantine all that is fine and well but its not theologically correct and you and Silvo is what proves the Vatican right in so much that they had to be admonished and cut loose from the gang because these beliefs and ideals you, Silvo, and the nuns both have are frankly, anti Christian. You says its gossip but if they teach the things y'all say on here, its not gossip, its heresy. Sorry. They are pro humanism, boarding on the agnostic and "all paths lead to heaven" hippy dipy nonsense of paganism... sorry but I gotta call it like I see it.

Respectfully, I think that's a gross exaggeration fueled by media hysteria.
This is really crazy... the Catholic Church from from day one, the office of the pope were given keys to not be able to be wrong even if they wanted to be. So if, speaking officially as the pope, Peter's successor who has these keys says its heterodox, heresy then we can take that check to the bank and cash it because its good.

this is the crux and all that really matters at the end of the day. Its how we separate fact from fiction.
 
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Fantine

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What I am saying, Bene, is that a report came out listing minor concerns with the LCWR.

If you remember the story of Chicken Little, the Vatican "dropped a raindrop from the sky."

Which was followed by all of you Chicken Littles running around screaming, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."

It's a raindrop. Get over it.

In terms of our other differences, I see life in a wholistic way. I am not sanctioning homosexual activity. I am saying that where real love exists, the two parties may be led to God. Obviously that's why gay people have entered ministry in some of the more progressive religious denominations.

And some gay people might be led to the Catholic God (if they are not turned off to the Catholic God by Catholic gay-bashers.)

Every experience in life we have can either bring us closer to God or turn us away from God, and there are no "mistakes" if we learn the lessons we are supposed to learn.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Regardless of support, the Vatican has the final say. Which is good. It's what they signed up for & promised to obey when they took their vows.
Sort of a dangerous attitude, if the disconnect between the Vatican and the wider church becomes too great, people have been known to take their bat and ball and go start their own church.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Pope Benedict addressed that when he said that maybe we need a "smaller, purer Church." It's not the Vatican that is out of touch, it's the flock.
True true.

The flock - the ppl have it in their heads they run the show - they the tail - wag the dog.
Purer is good. I mean - just saying one is Catholic - doesnt guarantee anything.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Oh cool, some folk want a smaller purer church and go start a new one for themselves! I think that is how Protestantism started. Maybe that's what you think we need?
Was pretty much Luther's exact thesis wasn't it?

...and contraceptives.
 
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Vasallus

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Oh cool, some folk want a smaller purer church and go start a new one for themselves! I think that is how Protestantism started. Maybe that's what you think we need?
That is not how Protestantism started. And I am not advocating going anywhere. You've done a fairly crappy job of twisting my words. I advocate paying attention to Rome, unlike some others on this board. I advocate obeying the Vicar of Christ, not promoting my own agenda. I believe I said the Vatican is not the problem. Did you have trouble understanding?
 
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MoreCoffee

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A smaller purer church means somebody is going somewhere, either the self proclaimed pure and holy will go and make their own church or the self proclaimed pure and holy will kick out everybody else. For the former all it takes is a decision to vote with your feet. For the latter the pure and holy would need to be the majority. They wouldn't be too small then would they?
 
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