'We're with you, Sisters'...

[WarriorAngel]

And as I said, the thinly veiled threat stuff will probably keep a few in line, lots more it won't though. Now if you're happy for the church to lose any semblence of relevence it has in the modern world so you and your core of "pure Catholics" can go off and have your own little thing somewhere, thats perfectly valid. Just don't complain about declining church numbers. The church can either remain a populist force while making concessions and adjustments, or it can shrink to a tiny "my way or the highway" [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Can't have it both ways.

If truth is a threat - then so be it.

If someone leaves - it is ON them. Nobody else.

If obedience to God and His Church is that hard - no one is forcing anyone to stay.

But obedience is what it is.

The only threat in here - is the threat that if someone wont agree with the Church - they will have a temper tantrum, hold their breath til their blue = leave the Church.

God gave His laws. Like it or not - these are HIS laws. The Church upholds them and has for 2000 years and if you want to be faithful - while maintaining integrity [or to the choice of leaving] - look them up and find out Church writings and history.

No one has hidden the Church's stance - and they remain open and clear and concise.

And have been argued since the time of the Apostles who are now in the Bible.

The only real threat in any of this - is not preparing one's soul for obedience to God - Whose Church this is.

Running away - wont hurt the Church - and it changes nothing. The truth remains - as Christ promised - intact. And shall remain that way.
There is no debate.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Put another way - God doesnt need us, the Church doesnt need us. WE need God, we need His Church.

The tail doesnt wag the dog and never will.

Just because God loves us and the souls who willingly go to hell, doesnt mean GOD needs us. Dont make your ego your God. Humility is a prized virtue for a reason - and that is the definition of obedience. Humble before God and HIS Will, not ours.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

the Church doesnt need us.

If thats you're attitude, great. Nothing wrong with that. Just, as I keep saying, if that IS your attitude, don't act all shocked and affronted as church attendance drops and the church is regarded as more and more of an irrelevance to society at large.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...- God doesnt need us, the Church doesnt need us. ...

There can be no church without people. God didn't establish a church with no people in it. It is not God's intention to have an empty church. No matter how magnificent and aloof one wants to paint God the truth is that God loves his people, he died for the benefit of his people, he longs for his people. If one's religion has a god so aloof that he needs no people and want no people and doesn't really mind if no people love him and he ceases to love them then it is not Christianity.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

There can be no church without people. God didn't establish a church with no people in it. It is not God's intention to have an empty church. No matter how magnificent and aloof one wants to paint God the truth is that God loves his people, he died for the benefit of his people, he longs for his people. If one's religion has a god so aloof that he needs no people and want no people and doesn't really mind if no people love him and he ceases to love them then it is not Christianity.

Well, despite WA's insistence to the contrary, one can't help but wonder how the church will feel about "needing us" once the collection plate return drops bellow a certain level. Call me cynical.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Well, despite WA's insistence to the contrary, one can't help but wonder how the church will feel about "needing us" once the collection plate return drops bellow a certain level. Call me cynical.

In other words, change or die.

Yeah, the Church went through worst periods than this. I think it'll survive.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

In other words, change or die.

Well, change or get much smaller, certainly.

Yeah, the Church went through worst periods than this. I think it'll survive.

But in what form?

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Well, change or get much smaller, certainly.

And we know it ain't going to change.

But in what form?

Won't really matter. Either you're in or you're out.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

And we know it ain't going to change.

What makes you say that? Its changed before, what makes you think it won't change again?

Won't really matter. Either you're in or you're out.

Well, it rather does matter to me, as a Catholic who rather liks to imagine remaining one.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

What makes you say that? Its changed before, what makes you think it won't change again?

To allow abortions, contraceptives, same-sex marriages, sexual intercourse of any sort, bring in ideologies from other faiths/religions?

Really?

Well, it rather does matter to me, as a Catholic who rather liks to imagine remaining one.

As long as the Church bends to what you find to be convenient?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

To allow abortions, contraceptives, same-sex marriages, sexual intercourse of any sort, bring in ideologies from other faiths/religions?

Really?

Well, changes of similar magnitude have happend within the church before.

As long as the Church bends to what you find to be convenient?

Me? I'm happy with the church as it is, pretty much.

 

[benedictaoo]

What I am saying, Bene, is that a report came out listing minor concerns with the LCWR.

If you remember the story of Chicken Little, the Vatican "dropped a raindrop from the sky."

Which was followed by all of you Chicken Littles running around screaming, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."

It's a raindrop. Get over it.

In terms of our other differences, I see life in a wholistic way. I am not sanctioning homosexual activity. I am saying that where real love exists, the two parties may be led to God. Obviously that's why gay people have entered ministry in some of the more progressive religious denominations.

And some gay people might be led to the Catholic God (if they are not turned off to the Catholic God by Catholic gay-bashers.)

Every experience in life we have can either bring us closer to God or turn us away from God, and there are no "mistakes" if we learn the lessons we are supposed to learn.

And all I'm saying is your claims of gossip and sexistism fall apart when they (the V) actually do step in when it comes to teaching faith and morals.

What I'm saying is, that's the only thing they are guaranteed to do right and not screw up.

If you do not believe in their teaching authority and the keys then I guess you don't but this is an example of that. I don't care about what these others say, ranting on about rebellion and broken vows... oh who cares because it ain't about that. Its about teaching something theologically incorrect pertaining to faith and morals in the name of the Church.

Its not about gays being lead to the Church so lets teach that gay love and relationships are okay or that a women in crisis can have that abortion... face it Fantine, once they they have been led the gays will have to give up their relationships and lives and the women will all have to live with the fact that they killed their baby so what would be the point in leading them by condoning these very serious grave sins?

That to me seems very cruel that you would lead them down such a dark path like that.

I have no problem with gays and I have no problem with wanting to do something to help women in crisis situations. I do believe we have discrimination among our traditionalist Catholics who love to rant on about it and I do believe for them its all about the rules and lip service and ending a law and preventing a law and not at all about the people themselves... not about dealing with broken society and fixing that but these Nuns appear to me to be TEACHING as articles of the faith that we can alleviate this suffering through sin and we can't. We will no draw people to Christ like that.

Committing sin, and living in sin and being a sinner is one thing but TEACHING sin officially in the name of the Church is something entirely different and this is where the Nuns went wrong. The HS will step in and the pope would drop dead before the HS would ever let error be taught in the name of the Church like that. This is all anyone needs to know.... its that they were TEACHING this officially in the name of the Church, not because they were all sweet and nice to gays or abortionists.

 

[benedictaoo]

Sort of a dangerous attitude, if the disconnect between the Vatican and the wider church becomes too great, people have been known to take their bat and ball and go start their own church.

Well its not about the people making up their own stuff, its about what is objectively true.

If they do not want to follow what is objectively true then going off and doing their own thing is what they can certainly do. Its not like that has not been happening for a 1000 years anyway....

Theologically, the stuff these Nuns were teaching wasn't true and that is the long and short of it and the Church for 2000 years have always protect the teachings... to the point where they will have to cut people lose or allow them to walk away. They may do it in a effed up way sometimes but the teaching itself will always be protected.

If the Nuns supporters all want to go off and practice error then that's their choice, God given free willed choice, I certainly won't stop them.

But God gave us a Church that we can trust will teach (not always act like) but TEACH us the truth even if 90% of the time across the globe half of the members don't follow that truth themselves. Its all a matter of what do we TEACH?

The Church can not teach error. It just can't. They would all be stricken down and drop dead before that could happen.

 

[Erose]

Pretty much. I acknowledge that we may understand the terms differently. All the groups you listed I would have said were sub groups of either traditionalist or progressive groups.

Really? Where do you live in which the Church is as polarized as you think? But so I can understand where you are coming from can you define what you think these terms refer to?

 

[Erose]

Well, change or get much smaller, certainly.


But in what form?

Change to what? What do you think it needs to change to to survive? Should it go the way of the Anglicans?

 

[benedictaoo]

Sorry, progressives and traditionalists... isn't everybody pretty much one or the other? What other options are there?

How about someone is just normal? I'd like to consider myself a normal Catholic, one is is not obsessed with taditionalism or liberlism or man on the moonism... One who just wants to go to Church and follow what is in my life, what ever challenges and crosses I have in my own life, who would rather work on me and not everybody else.

But here's the deal... we can't have dozens of people teaching different stuff. I do firmly believe God gave us a way to know what exactly is true and that way is that God gave to the Church authority to teach. Not to act like but to teach and protect what is true.

So when stuff like this comes up and face it, it will always happen through the course of our exsistence, we have to have a way to be able to know who's teaching the truth.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well, change or get much smaller, certainly.


But in what form?

Seriously... the Catholic Church is never going to change its teachings on abortion and homosexual marriage or immoral sexual relationships of any and all kind. It literally can't because its not up to her... its not her teaching to change but God's.

So... if the Catholic Church has to be smaller, then so be it but it will never ever die and go away.

This is just what this is...

Does that make the human aspect of the Church perfect in all things? No.

Does that means the human aspect of the Church itself will not have to answer for running all those people off because the men with their bad behavior, lies and deceit, caused her to lose her credibility to teach morals? No.

It just means that no one on earth or under the earth can stop this train because its God's train... This Church is bigger then all of us including the men who run it.

 

[benedictaoo]

Really? Where do you live in which the Church is as polarized as you think? But so I can understand where you are coming from can you define what you think these terms refer to?

The Church members are very polarized and everyone is to blame because of the rhetoric that each one spews... the Trads with their junk and the Libs with theirs and the political Catholics with theirs...

Everybody needs to just stop it with all this division and polarizing. Worry about making your own selves holy... take this faith and practice it within your own lives and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well, despite WA's insistence to the contrary, one can't help but wonder how the church will feel about "needing us" once the collection plate return drops bellow a certain level. Call me cynical.

Let me see if I can bring some balance to this... the human aspect of this Church will take note and will freak out. Follow the money baby, that is how its always been... its always about the money and the men who run the Church from the top down are no exception. We will more then likely see parishes all over pushing the envelope and then we'll see some becoming more strick with the rules.

However, the Divine aspect of the Church will never get to the point of teaching officially these errors.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Well its not about the people making up their own stuff, its about what is objectively true.

As I tried to tell the others, see, you can SAY that, but if the bulk of the congregation go elsewhere, thats significant.

If they do not want to follow what is objectively true then going off and doing their own thing is what they can certainly do. Its not like that has not been happening for a 1000 years anyway....

Indeed. Question, obviously, is what is "objectively" true.

Theologically, the stuff these Nuns were teaching wasn't true and that is the long and short of it and the Church for 2000 years have always protect the teachings... to the point where they will have to cut people lose or allow them to walk away. They may do it in a effed up way sometimes but the teaching itself will always be protected.

If the Nuns supporters all want to go off and practice error then that's their choice, God given free willed choice, I certainly won't stop them.

But God gave us a Church that we can trust will teach (not always act like) but TEACH us the truth even if 90% of the time across the globe half of the members don't follow that truth themselves. Its all a matter of what do we TEACH?

The Church can not teach error. It just can't. They would all be stricken down and drop dead before that could happen.

Uhuh. So, geocentrism? The crusades?