'We're with you, Sisters'...

[Virgil the Roman]

Sort of a dangerous attitude, if the disconnect between the Vatican and the wider church becomes too great, people have been known to take their bat and ball and go start their own church.

I believe they call that, schism and heresy. Both of which, if one is not contrite and remains impenitent, to perdition and to Hell.

Sorry, but unless one wants to follow in the footsteps of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Arius, or others, I would think that one would wish to avoid such an act of rebellion . . .

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe they call that, schism and heresy. Both of which, if one is not contrite and remains impenitent, [lead] to perdition and to Hell.

Sorry, but unless one wants to follow in the footsteps of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Arius, or others, I would think that one would wish to avoid such an act of rebellion . . .

Then this smaller and purer church is not a call for mass excommunications and expulsions and nor is it a call for mass schism where the self assessed pure exit the church and found one (or more) of their own. So if it is not the one nor the other then it must be something else. Perhaps a call to more Christ like living as well as more deep appreciation of the faith professed by the church?

 

[Fantine]

If Pope Benedict were to draw a line in the sand and excommunicate all those he believed were non-compliant, there would still be a very large church. It would be a church primarily of Catholics from the third world...I don't know whether you all would consider them compliant because when people are primarily concerned with survival issues they're not really focused on or aware of the finer legalities of canon law. I understand that some keep the pictures or statues of their ancestors on the altar by Jesus and Mary. On Día de los Muertos in my town little altars are set up in the Catholic schools with pictures of the kids' deceased grand and great-grandparents.

But let's focus on the people you think should be excommunicated. Pope Benedict could do that, of course, sell the artwork in the Vatican, move in to a smaller place, fire 90% of the Swiss Guards, give up a lot of mission work.

The West finances the Church. And westerners aren't the kinds of people the Church is used to ministering to. They're educated (whether you say they're 'poorly catechized' or not). They're used to living in democracies. They have access to vast amounts of information through technology. They grew up with psychology. I think most grew up with the belief that mankind is basically good.

And the Church just doesn't know how to deal with them.

It's sort of as if they spent 2000 years raising puppies and all of a sudden they have millions of cats and they're feeding them dog chow and taking them for walks instead of letting them use litter boxes.

The ones who stay Catholic are the ones who realize how to deal with all this and teach themselves to use litter boxes and do some fishing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
The West finances the Church. And westerners aren't the kinds of people the Church is used to ministering to. They're educated (whether you say they're 'poorly catechized' or not). They're used to living in democracies. They have access to vast amounts of information through technology. They grew up with psychology. I think most grew up with the belief that mankind is basically good.

And the Church just doesn't know how to deal with them.
...

The pope and a lot of the curia are from the west; they know perfectly well how we think, what we've grown up with, and how to minister in wealthy well educated cultures with democratic governments.

What causes difficulties for the curia is that people in every culture will listen to them but not necessarily obey them. The curia, like any other group of men (and/or women) who want to govern must show just cause for their decisions or else risk eventual rejection. It is one of the Holy Spirit's counterbalances to the inclination to exercise power OVER others instead of sharing it WITH them.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I believe they call that, schism and heresy. Both of which, if one is not contrite and remains impenitent, to perdition and to Hell.

Sorry, but unless one wants to follow in the footsteps of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Arius, or others, I would think that one would wish to avoid such an act of rebellion . . .

And Peter Damian and the Bogomils and the Orthodox churches etc etc. Yes, them.

Now, you can call them names and blast thunder and brimstone language at them all you like, but the fact is, the sheep can only be pushed so far from where they want to go. And when the Church is doing things that the body seriously disagrees with, there will be schism and heresy. Now you can talk aboiut purity and the holiness of following Rome, or whatever, but the fact remains, that there are like a billion Catholics, we are an inherently populist church, and if the church's standards are set for particularly unpopular values, people will leave. You can make the rules such that all church members are to live like an ascetic monk, thats fine, but if you do so, be prepared for a huge number of people to leave the church. Its no good telling people they SHOULD follow Rome, no matter what, because blind obedience, for better or worse, is not considered a virtue anymore.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

The pope and a lot of the curia are from the west; they know perfectly well how we think, what we've grown up with, and how to minister in wealthy well educated cultures with democratic governments.

What causes difficulties for the curia is that people in every culture will listen to them but not necessarily obey them. The curia, like any other group of men (and/or women) who want to govern must show just cause for their decisions or else risk eventual rejection. It is one of the Holy Spirit's counterbalances to the inclination to exercise power OVER others instead of sharing it WITH them.

And, just my opinion here, but by the time someone rises tro the curia, let alone the Papacy, that person's going to be pretty thoroughly institutionalised. I'm sure the Pope is a lovely guy and all, and holy to boot, but seriously, how much genuine understanding of the issues affecting so many of his congregants can he really have?

Other churches that allow their priests to marry still have this problem, but decidedly less so. I went to school with the daughter of the guy who is now one of Australia's Anglican bishops, he was just a parish priest at the time though, and I spent several holidays with them. And frankly, I have to say if I were having serious emotional issues or crises of faith, I rather suspect I would be more comfortable talking to him about it than George Pell, the Australian Cardinal. I just think his background and experience leaves him a little closer to his flock. Maybe thats just me.

 

[Erose]

If Pope Benedict were to draw a line in the sand and excommunicate all those he believed were non-compliant, there would still be a very large church. It would be a church primarily of Catholics from the third world...I don't know whether you all would consider them compliant because when people are primarily concerned with survival issues they're not really focused on or aware of the finer legalities of canon law. I understand that some keep the pictures or statues of their ancestors on the altar by Jesus and Mary. On Día de los Muertos in my town little altars are set up in the Catholic schools with pictures of the kids' deceased grand and great-grandparents.

But let's focus on the people you think should be excommunicated. Pope Benedict could do that, of course, sell the artwork in the Vatican, move in to a smaller place, fire 90% of the Swiss Guards, give up a lot of mission work.

The West finances the Church. And westerners aren't the kinds of people the Church is used to ministering to. They're educated (whether you say they're 'poorly catechized' or not). They're used to living in democracies. They have access to vast amounts of information through technology. They grew up with psychology. I think most grew up with the belief that mankind is basically good.

And the Church just doesn't know how to deal with them.

It's sort of as if they spent 2000 years raising puppies and all of a sudden they have millions of cats and they're feeding them dog chow and taking them for walks instead of letting them use litter boxes.

The ones who stay Catholic are the ones who realize how to deal with all this and teach themselves to use litter boxes and do some fishing.

You know that very little in this post makes sense.

 

[Erose]

Sort of a dangerous attitude, if the disconnect between the Vatican and the wider church becomes too great, people have been known to take their bat and ball and go start their own church.

Dangerous attitude? The only Catholics that there seems to be a disconnect between them and the Vatican are Progressives and Traditionalists. Both of which are diminishing minorities in the Church.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The Church is called to save souls, BB. Sorry, but I hate to break it to ya, but she doesn't dogmatise or adopt Progressivism as teaching. If some folks are so out there or liberal that they'd rather follow their own progressive or neocon political views that run against the Church (even though Divine Church belief takes precedence is greater than mere politics and the like), that's on their heads. As for the rest of us, we'll conform our politics, ethics, and beliefs to what God's Holy Roman Catholic Church, through which the Holy Ghost infallibly speaks, says is Truth and what is error or heresy. Truth is decided via popular vote; nay, it is revealed by the Holy Ghost because God speaks the Truth and it is so; for God cannot lie and is all-knowing --- and cannot be deceived.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Dangerous attitude? The only Catholics that there seems to be a disconnect between them and the Vatican are Progressives and Traditionalists. Both of which are diminishing minorities in the Church.

Sorry, progressives and traditionalists... isn't everybody pretty much one or the other? What other options are there?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

The Church is called to save souls, BB. Sorry, but I hate to break it to ya, but she doesn't dogmatise or adopt Progressivism as teaching. If some folks are so out there or liberal that they'd rather follow their own progressive or neocon political views that run against the Church (even though Divine Church belief takes precedence is greater than mere politics and the like), that's on their heads. As for the rest of us, we'll conform our politics, ethics, and beliefs to what God's Holy Roman Catholic Church, through which the Holy Ghost infallibly speaks, says is Truth and what is error or heresy. Truth is decided via popular vote; nay, it is revealed by the Holy Ghost because God speaks the Truth and it is so; for God cannot lie and is all-knowing --- and cannot be deceived.

Hey, no need to say sorry. I'm just telling you that if you want a hardline dogmatic church, thats fine. Just be prepared for a lot of people leaving. You can probably scare a few dissenters into meek acceptance with all the talk of divine guidance and all, but not all of 'em. And if you're happy for the church to become increasingly less relevent in the mainstream, until only a few dyed in the wool, Catholics above-all-else people remain, thats a perfectly valid position. Just don't demand absolute strict adherence to outdated social/scientific positions on one hand, and complain about falling church attendance or priest/nun/monk recruitment on the other.

ETA: And don't act as if the church has never made concessions and adjustments in line with shifting social values before, either.

 

[Fantine]

You know that very little in this post makes sense.

Thanks for letting me know it doesn't make sense to you; nevertheless, other responders to the post appeared to understand it easily.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Sorry, progressives and traditionalists... isn't everybody pretty much one or the other? What other options are there?

Pretty much and some Neocons/'Neocatholics' as I've heard some phrase the 'others' . . .

 

[Erose]

Sorry, progressives and traditionalists... isn't everybody pretty much one or the other? What other options are there?

Let's see off the top of my head, orthodox, evangelical, charismatic, cultural, conservative, and I am sure I am missing some other group.

Orthodox is mine, with a slight mix of evangelical and charismatic.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Pretty much and some Neocons/'Neocatholics' as I've heard some phrase the 'others' . . .

The actual philosophy of genuine neocons is pretty antithetical to Catholics, but what does it mean in this context?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Let's see off the top of my head, orthodox, evangelical, charismatic, cultural, conservative, and I am sure I am missing some other group.

Orthodox is mine, with a slight mix of evangelical and charismatic.

...O...kay...

 

[Erose]

...O...kay...

You really believe traditionalist and progressives make up the full membership of the Church?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

You really believe traditionalist and progressives make up the full membership of the Church?

Pretty much. I acknowledge that we may understand the terms differently. All the groups you listed I would have said were sub groups of either traditionalist or progressive groups.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If people leave the Church, God's laws and teachings because they disagree with God - it's on them.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

If people leave the Church, God's laws and teachings because they disagree with God - it's on them.

And as I said, the thinly veiled threat stuff will probably keep a few in line, lots more it won't though. Now if you're happy for the church to lose any semblence of relevence it has in the modern world so you and your core of "pure Catholics" can go off and have your own little thing somewhere, thats perfectly valid. Just don't complain about declining church numbers. The church can either remain a populist force while making concessions and adjustments, or it can shrink to a tiny "my way or the highway" [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Can't have it both ways.