Were the Nephilim to blame? Were they evil?

[DamianWarS]

Because it impacts what people think of the veracity of the rest of the bible

It negatively impacts how we approach the Bible by limiting our ability to understand the text because we are fixated on the wrong parts.

The earth is corrupted fully and the nephilim show the culmination of this point. In baptism our old self goes under the waters and dies, what emerges is our new self in Christ. 1 Peter 3:21 reveals this metaphor in the flood so we know it is true. So we can use baptism as a framework of the account to understand it. In baptism what dies is our old self a product of sin, not a product God. The nephilim is creation distorted and an anti-creation not of God. They die in the flood as our old self dies in baptism.

Nothing is revealed about the nephilim in the literal sense but when we read this account it's all we can talk about. Why not focus on the framework revealed through scripture rather than layering myth onto myth.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

I am confused a great deal about this because it has rarely been talked about in the 47 years I've attended church. It is in Genesis 6 where the title is The corruption of mankind. This is the only part of the Bible that I know of where it speaks about the Nephilim (children fathered by an angel); for reference I'm using NASB version of the Bible (Genesis 6:1-7).

To summarize, it says that the sons of God found the daughters of men beautiful. In verse 4 it says, The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

This is where my questions come in to play. My first question is this:

1. Were the Nephilim evil?

The only thing I can find that speaks of their character, is in the verse above where it says they were "men of renown." It says they were also mighty. But nowhere can I find anything that says they were evil. Neither "might" or "renown" seems to make reference to evil in these verses. If they were evil, were they born that way? It wouldn't be the child's fault that their father was an angel. My next question is 2 parts:

2. Did God view the Nephilim different from other humans? Were they born evil?

From what I can gather, the Nephilim still had a human soul. While they were mighty and renown...the Bible gives no reference to them having angelic powers or abilities. Did God give them the same chances to repent of their sins as He did with regular humans? If they were still human, I would have to say yes.

However, it was only after the Nephilim were born that God says in verse 5, Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

I know that God is just and His judgement is true. I found 2 references stating that the angels who fathered them were the ones that fell with Lucifer. I might be wrong in my interpretation, and I hate thinking it, but this makes me think that the Nephilim were evil. I hate that thought because it wouldn't have been the child's fault to be born from a fallen angel.

So in the end, I am curious to know how did God judge them when they died? Did He view them differently than regular humans? Were they born evil?

Always interpret a verse in its overall context. The previous chapters show Adam's lineage through Cain through Lamech and Seth through Enoch to Noah. The two lines (unbelieving through Cain [daughters] and believing through Seth [son]) merged at verse 4 so that all of mankind was corrupted. I don't know who the Nephilim were unless they were ancestors of Goliath and the other Philistine giants.

 

[Sorn]

It negatively impacts how we approach the Bible by limiting our ability to understand the text because we are fixated on the wrong parts.

Nothing is revealed about the nephilim in the literal sense but when we read this account it's all we can talk about. Why not focus on the framework revealed through scripture rather than layering myth onto myth.

Well for one reason, because its there. Why do people climb mountains, because they are there.
This thread is about the Nephilim, (its not my thread either) if you want to start a thread about the framework revealed by the nephilin stories, you'd be free to do so.

 

[Dreamdweller]

the Bible doesn't give any more information than what you posted, but the book of Enoch breaks it all down and answers those questions. The book of Enoch explains how the Nephilim were the offspring between fallen angels and human women. They were evil because their primordial origin was from the fallen angels. When they perished in the flood, their souls remained disembodied on the earth as demons. They didn't go to God like humans because they did not come from God. It also explains how they were smarter than average humans but that smartness was used for evil purposes and they ruled over humans. They were smarter as well as larger. They taught men how to do evil things. That was the reason for the flood. The earth was corrupted by them.

The part I struggle with is that God doesn't allow any being to be born evil. No being (whether human or angel) comes into creation without God's blessing. God allowed the Nephilim to be born...meaning God created their souls. It's hard to think that He created them evil. The angels may have been evil, but that shouldn't automatically transfer to the child, especially since their mothers' were human. The Nephilim never asked to be born from a fallen angel. It was never their fault.

Knowing all that I know, I have to believe they had same chance that regular humans had when it came to salvation.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well for one reason, because its there. Why do people climb mountains, because they are there.
This thread is about the Nephilim, (its not my thread either) if you want to start a thread about the framework revealed by the nephilin stories, you'd be free to do so.

A physical mountain has a physical purpose. An oral account written at least 1500 years after the fact needs to be approached from all angles to understand what mountain needs to be climbed.

The thread topic may be relevant. The nephilim represent the corruption of man and are not of God. God did not look down at the nephilim and say as he did his creation "it is good" because the nephilim are not from God and they are a distortion of his creation.

Since we know the flood is a baptism metaphor in that framework the role the nephilim play is the corrupted sinful nature that needs to die through the waters. If we look at this in a literal vacuum the nephilim are sin incarnate and the last straw that causes God to judge man and send a flood.

In this sense the nephilim are to blame and are evil, they are the irredeemable blemish of the corruption of humanity and need to be fully removed.

 

[Jipsah]

Its too late to decide you want to have a serious diologue regarding your view of this book. I`m not interested now.

Well, bye.

 

[Sorn]

The part I struggle with is that God doesn't allow any being to be born evil. No being (whether human or angel) comes into creation without God's blessing. God allowed the Nephilim to be born...meaning God created their souls. It's hard to think that He created them evil. The angels may have been evil, but that shouldn't automatically transfer to the child, especially since their mothers' were human. The Nephilim never asked to be born from a fallen angel. It was never their fault.

Knowing all that I know, I have to believe they had same chance that regular humans had when it came to salvation.

We don't know how souls are created. Is it an active act of God in each case, or is it some automatic spiritual process, perhaps a byproduct of something having life or some as yet unknown and unsuspected basic property of the laws of this universe - that God created??

 

[Sorn]

A physical mountain has a physical purpose. A oral account written at least 1500 years after the fact needs to be approached from all angles to understand what mountain needs to be climbed.

The thread topic may be relevant. The nephilim represent the corruption of man and are not of God. God did not look down at the nephilim and say as he did his creation "it is good" because the nephilim are not from God and they are a distortion of his creation.

Since we know the flood is a baptism metaphor in that framework the role the nephilim play is the corrupted sinful nature that needs to die through the waters. If we look at this in a literal vacuum the nephilim are sin incarnate and the last straw that causes God to judge man and send a flood.

In this sense the nephilim are to blame and are evil, they are the irredeemable blemish of the corruption of humanity and need to be fully removed.

Strictly speaking its 'a physical mountain has a physical effect'. Using 'purpose' implies it was put there deliberately.

 

[Skye1300]

The part I struggle with is that God doesn't allow any being to be born evil. No being (whether human or angel) comes into creation without God's blessing. God allowed the Nephilim to be born...meaning God created their souls. It's hard to think that He created them evil. The angels may have been evil, but that shouldn't automatically transfer to the child, especially since their mothers' were human. The Nephilim never asked to be born from a fallen angel. It was never their fault.

Knowing all that I know, I have to believe they had same chance that regular humans had when it came to salvation.

That's exactly the reason why God destroyed them and was very displeased with the union. He doesn't allow beings to be born evil and the fallen angels found a way to make that happen.
We don't exactly know the method in which they were created. Maybe the fallen angels learned how to duplicate or clone their own soul to put in the offspring or maybe they found a way to split their soul to put in the offspring.
But however they did it, they found a way around God's natural law. Those beings did not have the breath of life from God. Just like how it's the sperm that determines the sex of the child, maybe among the male fallen angels it's their seed that determines the soul condition. I've heard some people say that among humans it's the male seed that carries the sin nature. Maybe the male seed from fallen angels determines their evilness. We don't know how they did it exactly, we just know it was done and God was not pleased and destroyed the whole world because of it.
That's why I think the same spirit behind what the fallen angels did is behind homosexuality and gender reassignment issues going on today. People going through great lengths like artificial hormones and surgery to be something different than what God made them to be. Which is why God also destroyed Soddam and Gamorrah. It's like a duplication of the fallen angels on a smaller scale.

 

[DamianWarS]

Strictly speaking its 'a physical mountain has a physical effect'. Using 'purpose' implies it was put there deliberately.

I believe in purpose

 

[BPPLEE]

I am confused a great deal about this because it has rarely been talked about in the 47 years I've attended church. It is in Genesis 6 where the title is The corruption of mankind. This is the only part of the Bible that I know of where it speaks about the Nephilim (children fathered by an angel); for reference I'm using NASB version of the Bible (Genesis 6:1-7).

To summarize, it says that the sons of God found the daughters of men beautiful. In verse 4 it says, The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

This is where my questions come in to play. My first question is this:

1. Were the Nephilim evil?

The only thing I can find that speaks of their character, is in the verse above where it says they were "men of renown." It says they were also mighty. But nowhere can I find anything that says they were evil. Neither "might" or "renown" seems to make reference to evil in these verses. If they were evil, were they born that way? It wouldn't be the child's fault that their father was an angel. My next question is 2 parts:

2. Did God view the Nephilim different from other humans? Were they born evil?

From what I can gather, the Nephilim still had a human soul. While they were mighty and renown...the Bible gives no reference to them having angelic powers or abilities. Did God give them the same chances to repent of their sins as He did with regular humans? If they were still human, I would have to say yes.

However, it was only after the Nephilim were born that God says in verse 5, Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

I know that God is just and His judgement is true. I found 2 references stating that the angels who fathered them were the ones that fell with Lucifer. I might be wrong in my interpretation, and I hate thinking it, but this makes me think that the Nephilim were evil. I hate that thought because it wouldn't have been the child's fault to be born from a fallen angel.

So in the end, I am curious to know how did God judge them when they died? Did He view them differently than regular humans? Were they born evil?

Some people say they were not eligible for Heaven when they died they became what we know as demons or unclean spirits. No doubt they were evil. Some also say this was a plan of Satan to corrupt the human bloodline so the messiah could not come. Notice the verse that says Noah was perfect in his generations

 

[BPPLEE]

A physical mountain has a physical purpose. An oral account written at least 1500 years after the fact needs to be approached from all angles to understand what mountain needs to be climbed.

The thread topic may be relevant. The nephilim represent the corruption of man and are not of God. God did not look down at the nephilim and say as he did his creation "it is good" because the nephilim are not from God and they are a distortion of his creation.

Since we know the flood is a baptism metaphor in that framework the role the nephilim play is the corrupted sinful nature that needs to die through the waters. If we look at this in a literal vacuum the nephilim are sin incarnate and the last straw that causes God to judge man and send a flood.

In this sense the nephilim are to blame and are evil, they are the irredeemable blemish of the corruption of humanity and need to be fully removed.

There were giants after the flood as well. It says again after that. So it happened again Jude mentions what happened to these fallen angels and that is why it stopped

 

[DamianWarS]

There were giants after the flood as well. It says again after that. So it happened again Jude mentions what happened to these fallen angels and that is why it stopped

Post-flood references to the nephilim such as Num 13:33 may be a misnomer and used as a reference back to the accounts of nephilim because of their size but not because of their blood line. This is actually a more sensible way of looking at the text but when we say fallen angels continually come to earth and interbreed with humans creating a super species then this is getting into very large back stories the text doesn't support and I think is irresponsible. Keeping it simple is always the best approach.

 

[BPPLEE]

Post-flood references to the nephilim such as Num 13:33 may be a misnomer and used as a reference back to the accounts of nephilim because of their size but not because of their blood line. This is actually a more sensible way of looking at the text but when we say fallen angels continually come to earth and interbreed with humans creating a super species then this is getting into very large back stories the text doesn't support and I think is irresponsible. Keeping it simple is always the best approach.

Jde 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[DamianWarS]

Jde 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

that wouldn't account for repeated offenses of before and after the flood. Jude tells us an offense was committed and then a subsequent punishment for the offense. There is no record of angels repeating the offense as Gen 6 details. The rise of the Nephilim prompted the flood so we see God taking action from cause and effect (the Nephilim are the effect). So why would he not also take action against the offenders (the cause)?

Post-flood Nephilim is in name only and there are no backstories so we shouldn't be jumping to fallen angels interbreeding with humans as our de-facto conclusion which would be irrational. If the ancient accounts of the Nephilim are associated with evil then any abnormally large person who is an enemy could be called this disparagingly. The account really doesn't suggest otherwise.

 

[BPPLEE]

that wouldn't account for repeated offenses of before and after the flood. Jude tells us an offense was committed and then a subsequent punishment for the offense. There is no record otf angels repeating the offense as Gen 6 details. The rise of the Nephilim prompted the flood so we see God taking action from cause and effect (the Nephilim are the effect). So why would he not also take action against the offenders (the cause)?

Post-flood Nephilim is in name only and there are no backstories so we shouldn't be jumping to fallen angels interbreeding with humans as our de-facto conclusion which would be irrational. If the ancient accounts of the Nephilim are associated with evil then any abnormally large person who is an enemy could be called this disparagingly. The account really doesn't suggest otherwise.

There is Goliath and his brothers and other accounts of giants after the flood. In Genesis 6 it says and again after that.

 

[DamianWarS]

There is Goliath and his brothers and other accounts of giants after the flood. In Genesis 6 it says and again after that.

sure, but it just doesn't say Goliath and his brothers are the spawn of fallen angels.

 

[BPPLEE]

sure, but it just doesn't say Goliath and his brothers are the spawn of fallen angels.

How do you explain them and Og?

 

[ChetSinger]

sure, but it just doesn't say Goliath and his brothers are the spawn of fallen angels.

That's true, the text doesn't come out and say that. But when the conquest began, some of the population of Canaan was devoted to destruction, some was to be put to forced labor, and others were merely to be driven out.

Here's a blog post (the author is a scholar) that identifies the clans containing giants as the ones to be exterminated.

The Giant Clans and the Conquest - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com)​

Why were the giants singled out for destruction? If the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 is true, they represented a continuing danger to humanity. The rest of the population could be kicked out or forced into slavery, but the giants had to go.

Related to this, afaik the early Jews and Christians all held to the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6. Only later, sometime around Augustine, did the human interpretations begin. For example, the 1st century Jewish historian Josephus included the angelic interpretation in his book Antiquities of the Jews.

 

[DamianWarS]

How do you explain them and Og?

the word Nephilim is used in 2 spots in the bible. The original Gen 6 account and also in Number 13:33. no where else is that word used and in terms of Goliath his height is mentioned but no one calls him of the Nephilim.

The Number 13:33 refers to the post-flood people Fathered by Anak and his descendants are called the Anakim such as referenced in early Deuteronomy in 1:28, 2:10,11,21, 9:2 and also in Joshua 11:21, 14:12,15. In the final reference, (Jos 14:15) Arba is referred to as "greatest man among the Anakites" and in 15:13 Arba is revealed as the "forefather of Anak". So it would seem among the giant tribe of the Anakim Arba was the greatest. There is no reference however to a fallen angel bloodline that caused giant-like traits and the word "giant" doesn't even use except in the Num 13:33 reference calling them Nephilim which is translated sometimes as giant.

so how did they get so big? Goliath was something like 9'6" tall and that indeed is a tall man. Guinness has a 8'11" man as the tallest and I assume since Goliath was a chosen champion he was one of the tallest of his kind. But in the end I don't know how they got so tall and I don't think the text tells us that nor should we jump to conclusions that it was from fallen angels.