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were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by celtic_crusader, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    I wasnt quoting you, I summarized that as your message, post # 13 I guess.
    are you saying the 70 weeks is over or not?
     
  2. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Yes.

    I believe Jesus Christ and the ministry and works that He fulfilled completed Daniel 9:24-27, the 70 weeks.

    I think of it this way. If I throw a rock in the middle of a pond, did the rock hit the water? Yes.

    The water that is at the edge land, doesn't realize it yet, but the rock already hit the water. It may take some time for the edge that is at the land to realize it, but nevertheless, the rock hit the water.

    Jesus is seated on the throne.

    Looking at the world in the natural it doesn't look like it, yet nevertheless, Jesus is sitting on the throne reigning over all His creation. He will continue to reign until all His enemies are made a footstool.

    I Corinthians 15:25 - For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

    Jesus is Lord and reigning right now.

    The world doesn't see that yet (and sometimes the natural world doesn't express it), but in time they all will be subjected and put under His feet.

    Remember the rock and the water. Yes it hit the water. The edge of the water where the land meets doesn't realize it yet, because the waves haven't reached the edge, nevertheless the rock hit the water.

    The work of the cross (the rock) is finished and complete and spans across all time. The waves have yet to reach every part of the natural world (including time), but in the spiritual world, it is complete. He is seated (meaning finished) and we are seated with Him, now.

    Of course, that is if we have entered into the kingdom of God.
     
  3. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    If you believe that the 70 weeks are fulfilled then you contradict yourself by believing that Rev.13(dan 7) & Rev. 12(dan 8 & 9) have not yet occurred.
     
  4. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    I have never mentioned anything about Revelation 12 or 13.

    By your post, I see that you are linking Daniel 7 with Revelation 13 and Daniel 8 & 9 with Revelation 12.

    Would you care to expound to us why you link them?

    I only expounded on 4 verses of Daniel (9:24-27), which you did not or could not correct.

    I expounded a little on Hebrews 10, Matthew 23 & 24 and Luke 17 which you did not or could not correct.

    I expounded on the connection between Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15, and Luke 21:10 and you never even commented or corrected on that.

    Have you read Daniel 9:24-27 for yourself and asked Jesus if He fulfilled those verses? He was the subject of them.

    Tell me why you disagree that the 70 weeks are not fulfilled in Daniel. The 70 weeks are not in Revelation.

    Daniel 8 is most certainly fulfilled. It spoke of the kingdom of Greece which is loooong gone. Daniel 9 I already shared with you.

    I told you i'm still studying Daniel 7 so I can't comment with any certainty yet.

    Are you confusing me with someone else? I don't understand you.
     
  5. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    ok, if you believe that the 69 weeks have been fulfilled then the 70th week approaches=7 year tribulation.
    If you believe that the 70 weeks are fullfilled, then where does the 7 year trib come from?
    I didnt respond to the other matters because it would cloud this issue/ thread topic.
    In other words, people who believe in the 7 year trib believe that it is the 70th week of daniel.

    where do you get the 7 year trib from?
     
  6. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Debbie,

    The reason why I posted what I posted is b/c it doesn't matter what type of futurists you are (pre, mid, post), whether you realize it or not, you have assumed there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel and you have shot the last week of the 70 weeks into a future to expect and called it "the tribulation" or "the Great Tribulation".

    That is my point. It's an unscriptural and unfounded assumption that is sensantional at best.

    Where do you get a 7 year trib from? Maybe you don't realize it like I did not realize it.

    I was pre and post for most of my life. Until I realized that every futurists puts a gap in the 70th week. I never knew that until I ran across it studying different futurists interpretations. Then when I went to the Bible, I could not find a gap in the 70 weeks. Futurists call this unknown amount of time gap, the church age. But none of them, for me, could support with scripture a gap of anykind at any moment in the 70 weeks.

    We have been spoon fed for so long through preaching, teaching, movies, and books that we don't take the time to study for ourselves to see if these things are true. And the ingorant masses who don't know any better will continue to eat the slop given to them (remaining ignorant) until they learn to make their own good food (study for themselves).
     
  7. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    jbenjesus, I understand what you are saying, but you did not say where you got the idea of a 7 year trib.I thought before that you said you were not a preterist. So if you don't believe revelation has been fulfilled, please explain what part of revelation you don't think has been fulfilled?
    I cannot see how you can believe revelation has not yet been fullfilled, and still maintain daniel's 70th week was fullfilled.
    please explain.
    Daniel's last prophecy was written 536 years before Christ was born.
    Dan. 9:24 says that 70 weeks(490 Jewish years) remain "to finish the transgression, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up prophecy".
    So I already see a gap from 536 years before Christ was born, & only 490 years being left to anoint Christ.
    Do you think all prophecy has been sealed up? Including the other chptrs of Daniel?
    "to finish the transgression" of Israel is referring to Israel's history. OBviously, Israel's history is still unfolding today. Are we living today in "everlasting righteousness"?
    The next verse,25, says that 69 weeks are used up "unto the Messiah".
    Verse 26 refers to the sanctuary being destroyed. Are you sure the SANCTUARY was destroyed on 70 AD? WAs there a flood?
    Verse 27 says a 7year(1week) covenant was made with Israel, and broken 3.5 years into the contract. Did this happen in 70ad?
    Verse 27 also says"even until the consummation". SO the weddiing feast of the Lamb(2nd coming) is not consummation?
    verse 25 states 69 weeks are used up. Verse 27 states one week remains in Israel's history & it begins with a 1 week(7 year) contract.(dan.8:13 & 11).
    WHat part of rev has not yet been fullfilled?
     
  8. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    My responses and comments are in blue.

     
  9. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Jbenjesus... Thankyou for responding, here's the problem:
    I understand revelation much better than Daniel. Whereas you understand Daniel much better than Revelation.
    I am trying to understand Daniel better. You have helped me thus far.ty. This is where I get the flood:
    Dan. 9 :26- "... the Messiah shall be cut off, buit not for HImself:and the PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY;AND THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A FLOOD, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
    Was the sanctuary destroyed in 70 ad by the Messiah's people with a flood?
     
  10. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    I believe "a flood" is figurative speech meaning the city and the sanctuary will be swamped or overwhelmed when destroyed.

    The Roman army did that by surrounding the city for 3 1/2 years (coincidence?) causing the city to suffer famine, pestilence, sword and fire (all talked about in Ezekiel).

    They suffered famine because they could not get food from outside the city into the city. They suffered pestilence because so many people were dying from the famine (starvation) that they could not bury them outside the city. It was even recorded that mothers ate their children, which was prophesied by Jesus to happen. Bodies were piled up in the streets and even into the temple. Sword because the Romans during their final seige strike mowed down the inhabitants of the city with their sword and finally fire, b/c they burned that city and the temple down. So much so that the gold of the temple was said to melt and pour into the cracks of the streets.
     
  11. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    So your answer is "NO" the Messiah's people did not destroy their own temple with a flood in 70 AD.
    In fact, The sanctuary was destroyed ,but not by a flood & not by the people of the prince of the Messiah, but by the people of ANOTHER" PRINCE.that shall come" I believe you said "THE ROMANS".
    THerefore, even if you take the flood as being figurative, you cannot deny that the next verse, dan 9:27 is referring to the prince who destroyed the sanctuary. "and he shall confirm the covenant..."= the prince of the people who destroyed the temple with a figurative flood.
     
  12. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    I already explained this. I know you are a post-trib proponent so I got an excerpt from a post-trib proponent that explains what I have explained to you:

    I hope this helps.
     
  13. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Thanks for all your work benjesus. yes I am aware that the promise of Abraham's is for all Christians. I agree that Jesus sealed up Daniel's part of the vision concerning everlasting righteousness and an end of sins, and He was anointed.
    lol. Dont be mad, but Dan9 :27 to me is in direct correlation to Dan. 8:11-13. Do you agree?
     
  14. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To me, Daniel 9:27 does not at all correlate with Daniel 8:11-13. The 70 weeks went beyond the kingdom of Greece into the 4th kingdom, Rome.

    In verse 8, chapter 8, it says,

    The goat was figurative representation of the kingdom of Greece (the third kingdom). The great horn that was broken was representative of the king of Greece, more specifically, Alexander the Great.

    The "four notable ones" are the 4 generals that reigned over the kingdom of Greece when Alexander died. These four divided up the kingdom into 4 pieces. Out of one of these four, came a little horn. A ruler rose up out of the divided 4 piece kingdom of Greece.

    Verse 9, chapter 10-14 (for the meaning read verse 15-27 which explains this vision that Daniel sees) says,

    This "little horn" in history is know as Antiochus Epiphanes IV. He caused the daily sacrifice to cease in the temple. He desescrated the temple by entering it and sacrificing swine on the altar and erecting a statue of Zeus. He told the Jews not to worship their own God, but his. He also decreed that they should not sacrifice anymore. This caused the Jewish uprising known as the Maccabean revolt.

    After Antiochus Epiphanes IV issued the decree and stopped the sacrifices, 2300 days later, one of the sons of Maccabeaus (forgot his name), who started the revolt, cleansed the temple and initiated sacrifices to the Holy One of Israel, again.

    It truly is amazing at how precise and detail the Lord was in His prophecies and their coming to pass.
     
  15. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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  16. Kjam22

    Kjam22 New Member

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    This argument always comes down to the use of a pronoun. Daniel 9......Some would believe that verse 26 speaks of a prince that will come and his people would destroy the city and the sanctuary. And that he will make a covenant with many for one week. And somehow this he is suppose to be the messiah.... even though the previous text is about the prince that comes and destroys the city.

    The bible tells me that Christ's covenant is everlasting. It is eternal, that He will never leave me. I'm not sure how some reconcile this with the covenant in Daniel 9 27 that is clearly a covenant for one week. Messiah's covenant is not for one week.
     
  17. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    God's time is different than man's. When God gives us a time, his time is:1week=7jewish years=360 days. But Amen anyway. yes the scripture is obviously talking about the prince that should have destroyed the sanctuary, not the Messiah.
     
  18. Kjam22

    Kjam22 New Member

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    I agree.... and I understand the Jewish calendar. I know a lady who calculates by the jewish calendar and a little bit of astrology that 69 and 1/2 weeks allegedly comes out to exactly passover in 33AD. And on and on. She makes a very compelling argument and can spew out all of the math etc......... But these people all miss the simple fact that the Messiah's covenant is eternal. It has no end. So regardless of how facts, figures, and history are interperated............ we know that the covenant at the end of Daniel 9 is not the Messiah's.
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Nor was the sanctuary destroyed by the Jews with a flood.(previous verse).
     
  20. Kjam22

    Kjam22 New Member

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    I guess that depends on the meaning of the word "flood". :)
     
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