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were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by celtic_crusader, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Why does everyone believe that denial was talking about the antichrist in Daniel 9???


    I can’t see it at all???

    I only see a prophesy about the coming of the messiah and that desolations are determined for Israel as a result of roman attack in 70 AD.

    Let me go through this and I would apreasiante any one that is willing to show me were the anti Christ is in this scripture???


    Daniel 9

    22
    And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
    23
    At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
    24
    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    THIS SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT ISREAL IN THIS TIME WERE SUPPOSED TO STOP THERE SIN AND RECEIVE THE MASSIAH AND ANOINT HIM AS KING AND THIS WAS THE TIME FROM THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY UNTIL THE COMING OF JESUS.
    25
    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troubles times.

    THE TIME OF RESTORATION FOR ISREAL BEFORE JESUS CAME.
    26
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    AFTER 3 AND A HALF YRS JESUS SHALL BE CUT OF FOR HIS PEOPLES SAKE (CRUSIFIED). AND THEN THE PEOPLE OF ROME (CEASAR= PRINCE) SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY AND DESALATIONS ARE DETERMINED FOR JERUSELUM.
    THIS ALL HAPPENED AS IT SAYS IN 70 AD.
    27
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    SO, JESUS WILL CONFIRM THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR 7 YRS AND IN THE MIDST OF THE 7 YRS (3 AND A HALF YRS) THROUGH HIM BECOMING THE SACRAFICE ON THE CROSS, THE DAYLY SACRAFICE AND OLD TESTAMENT OBLATIONS CEASED.AND BECAUSE OF THE TERRABLE SIN OF HIS PEOPLE (BECAUSE THEY CRUSIFIED THERE OWN KING) HE SHALL MAKE THEM DESALATE. EVEN UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE . THE LAST 3 AND A HALF YEARS , JESUS ESTABLISHED HIS KINGDOM THROUGH HIS APOSTLES.


    This is all straight forward to me, no one taught me what it means, it’s just that it simply reads like that and fits into history accordingly.

    So, why does everyone think that everything in the bible is for the future????

    Please, could someone tell me how it is that people get an antichrist out of all this that is supposed to rise up and attack Jerusalem???? (IN THIS PROPHESY AT LEAST)

    Daniel seemed to be talking about Jesus the messiah and the desolation determent for Israel was for crucifying the most Holy. That all took place when rome destroyed the temple and jeruselum just as Daniel said. The jews were scattered into the whole world and now the end is near as isreal has come home again and that is a sign of the very end times of this age.

    celtic.
     
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  2. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    daniel says,"he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation". well that was rome and now that isreal has returned , the consumation of the earth is at hand. jesus will return and even bring more destruction through the consumation of this earth

    Isaiah 66
    15
    For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16
    For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    before this happens , , we will see the resurrection from the dead and then we will see the whole church taken up.

    Yet we are told that the rapture is next but it isn`t , the dead in christ will raise first.

    We earnestly wait for the manifestation of the sons of god. I wonder if the two wittnessess will come from this resurrection???

    the tribulation is also at hand but not as it apears to those believeing in prophetic fantisy.

    tell me, how can there be a one world ruler again when daniel says that after the roman empire that there will never be another world ruler again until the stone smites the statue and creates a mountain called the kingdom of god.
    so were is the room for a man to raise up and rule the world for 7 yrs.

    is this the only place in scripture that gives a 7 yr time period because this was talking about jesus setting his kingdom up not anti christ , in my opinion.???

    although the tribulation is determined , and the persucution of the saints is determained , all before jesus returnes and raises the dead.

    I could be wrong about some of these future punts but I doubt I am wrong concerning those prophesys that are past and not future.


    if history isn`t used to establish any pradictions it can`t posably have any acurasy unless god himself has given a prophetic work to someone.

    prophesy without history is indulging in fantisys in my opinion.

    prophesy and history are partners and are never seperated. that is what makes it so easy to spot false interpritations.


    celtic

    ps. why is the majority always wrong:D;)
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello celtic,
    Don't worry, you are right here, almost. It is talking about the messiah. It happened in the past, but it is also talking about the future. But it is so long. You don't do this on purpose do you?? LOL. It's too late to even think about this one now, maybe tomorrow. I really think that if you would learn just a little bit about prophecy, then you would probably end up teaching all of us, no joke. I'm really just a little nobody in this stuff, but you have what it really takes in your knowledge of history. Yeah, maybe the Lord did show me a little piece of the puzzle, but He would have a much better tool if you were willing to learn a little about prophecy. It would take me years to learn what you know in history, but you could learn prophecy in very little time. Your potential could be almost unlimited, and I would encourage you to take just one little step of faith, and let God use you in a mighty way.
     
  4. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    hey THUNDER,
    thanks for the compliments, (my head just swelled :cool: "pop")

    I am going to be extreamly busy over the next week or so , so I will be just reading , that will shorten my posts extreamly:D

    so , I am all ears. ya got me on a frenzy with this Eze 38 , give me some time with it , I will be hear , I will be quieter though. I am all ears.
    my tounge has stopped now;)

    I am a good listener. :D

    I want to spend some personal time on this Eze 38 but I can`t get of this stupid pc.

    see ya soon thunder.

    celtic crusader.
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    CC,

    I agree with RT, those long posts makes it difficult to form a comprehensive response... But a couple things don't add up. I can't find anywhere where the apostles taught for three and a half years. They spent the rest of their lives, (in some cases very short lives but in others a true lifetime) continuing the work of Jesus. That 3.5 years is just a vapor, conjured out of nothing. (just being blunt, not meaning to offend). Another problem is that the daily sacrifices did not end with Jesus's crucifixion, they continued for many years afterward. While the sacrifices may have been an exercise infutility, they were still performed.

    But this doesn't really answer your questions. Part of the problem is the different words used in different translations. In my NKJ version verse 27 begins 'THEN he shall...' rather than the wording you used 'AND he shall...'. 'THEN' implies that the 'he' is after Messiah is cut off, 'And' allows for a continuation of a previous verse prior to Messiah being cut off. In any event, I'll concede that it is nearly impossible to come up with Anti-christ based on these verses ALONE.

    Which brings up the answer to your second question (don't know if it was second or not but it appeared in one of your numerous long posts :) We must interpret bible prohecy in the way the bible intended it to be interpreted. For a good example of how prophecy is to be interpreted look at Matthew and the way he explains how Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Look in the OT prophecies that Matthew quotes and you'll find that Matt. wasn't too concerned about the original context, nor did he care if certain prophecies had already been fulfilled.
     
  6. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    hi willis,
    you bring up some interesting points , espesialy the long posts:D.

    I am tiered tonight but I will address this post soon.

    as short as I can;)

    thanks

    Celtic.
     
  7. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi Willis,
    This doesn’t offend me because you are right; it was a stab in the dark.

    This is why and were I was coming from.

    When I read the prophesy in Daniel, there are so many factors that point to Jesus that I "assume" the few parts I don’t understand.


    I figure (wether wrong or right I don’t know) that this had allotted about Jesus coming in it.

    Like;

    1. Ch 25 sets the scene for the messiah to come (which I think we agree on).


    2. Ch 26:
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (this has to be jesus being crucified after 3. 5 yrs.)

    3. The rest of the verse is exactly what happened to Jerusalem soon after messiah was cut of this happened in 70 ad. ;

    And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    This word “prince” I believe was referring to Titus of Rome who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Titus was like a prince to the emperor in 71 ad. He become emporor himself soon after. He was the prince hear for shore.

    4. 27
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

    Now we are talking about jesus again
    This seems like the covenant of the New Testament that Jesus preached and established and 3.5 yrs into establishing the covenant, he is crucified and the Curtin to the holy of holies was torn and other things.

    I get the impression that there was another 3.5 yrs were Jesus established the apostles and this new covenant.

    So I look were I can find it.

    First, it could be the time that Jesus kept intervening with the apostles before he left it to the Holy Ghost.

    Or maybe, it was the time until the persecution of the saints in Jerusalem.

    I don’t exactly know, and I don’t think it was there whole life preaching but more the time of god establishing the apostles and the new covenant.

    I get the impression that the daily sacrifice seised that day that Jesus died because he became god’s sacrifice for sin. So, therefore the daily sacrifice of the old covenant was done away with because Jesus just established a new one were he was the sacrifice. wether people still did it or not was irrelevant because god had done away with it after jesus crusifixion.

    5. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Well, "he" would have to be jesus since he walked out of the temple after fighting with the religious leaders and claiming that they wouldn’t see him again until they said,"blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord."

    He said at the same time," your house is left unto you, "DESOLATE". Then he turns to his disciples and says,"I tell you, not one stone will stand apon another in this place. He said,” this generation will not pass till this is fulfilled.

    It was Jesus that decreed all of this and then he used Rome to bring the punishment and they braught desolation to the Jews and scattered them until the consummation.

    The Hebrew has returned to Israel for the last time and it is a sign of the end of this age.
    It is the time of the consummation coming up.

    So in the end Willis, this all reads pretty straight to me. There is no hidden meaning??

    The use of other bibles, more modern, would make it look like it is an antichrist because that is what allot of people believe it means so why not rewright it to say what you want it to say.

    Maybe a good going over in Hebrew would help matteres? D

    I am only reading what it says. It couldn’t be talking about anyone else but it is another perfectly précis prophesy of the messiah to me. Ohh , except the 3.5 yrs after jesus rose.:D

    Got any Ideas???


    I hope I didn`t over do it again :)

    Celtic crusader.
     
  8. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    People more informed than myself explain it this way: That Daniel's 70 weeks are the total history fullfillment of Israel.
    They claim that 69 of those weeks have been fullfilled, and one week (7 of our years) remains.
    After the 62 "7's" the first 69 of these weeks of years is totaled by 69x7=483. A lunar, Jewish calendar is 360 days, which is what is left after 69 weeks. Thay claim that to the day, they have figured out that 69 of those weeks have already been fulfilled.
    There is one 7 year period left of Daniel's 70th week for Israel's history to be fullfilled before "everlasting righteousness". (Dan. 9:24) Otherwise, we are living in everlasting righteousness now & all prophecy has been fulfilled.(Which is what preterists believe).
     
  9. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi Debbie,
    The 69-week fulfilment was the 483 yrs from the Babylonian release from captivity until the coming of messiah.

    This was fulfilled.

    But I think they miss it terribly in the next bit?? I have heard this too Debbie??




    I believe that the next week, the 70th week was Jesus the messiah who came to set down the covenant.

    It would be obvious to say 69 weeks till messiah and the one week of messiah establishing the new covenant of his kingdom.

    Jesus came in the 70th week and he was righteous and we are saved and made righteous through jesus, he set up his righteous kingdom and john the Baptist baptised to repentance to prepare the way for jesus the righteous king who defeated Satan and brought in everlasting righteousness for those that receive jesus..

    Half way through this week Jesus was cut off.

    Those that received jesus the messiah were reconciled for there iniquity and he brought in everlasting righteousness and an end of sins for those that received jesus and jesus fulfilled the prophets and the law and sealed up the vision.


    The John the baptist anointed the most Holy. The Jewish religious leaders wouldn’t anoint him but the apostles followed and established this anointing..


    It seems pretty clear to me that the 70th week come straight after the 69th week as history shows.

    I believe it is all in the past and a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the bible is always talking about the future???

    But not always!!

    The thing is though, there defiantly isn’t anything about the antichrist in this scripture as far as I can see.

    Can you see what I mean hear Debbie or do you think I might have it wrong???

    Thanks

    Celtic.
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hi celtic,
    Jesus was cut off, right at the end of the 69 weeks. Israel rejected her Messiah. Then God turned His back on Israel, and looked on the gentiles (non-jews). This started the age of grace, that we are in now. When the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, then God will once again turn His attention towards Israel. This will be the last 7 years, that is known as Jacobs trouble, and we christians call it the tribulation. When Jesus came the fist time, He came as the suffering servant, but when He comes the second time, He will come as Messiah, or King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
     
  11. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Hmmm... in chapter 9, the "antichrist" is being spoken of indirectly, it seems. Now, in chapter 11; he is described more in depth, as a God of arms, (military) who will take the daily sacrifice away and place the abomination that maketh desolate. (using my own intuition, I believe this to be a devastating bomb-although I hope I am wrong. Keep your eyes on Jerusalem)
    We are told that this king shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above all; and do holds with a strange God, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: (?) and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
    Much to be looked into here; with Jerusalem in the state that it is in, and the surrounding countries and their religions. It is worrisome. We are told that there are many antichrists; even in the day of the disciples, they were going out into the world. But this one, shall enter peacefully, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries; and become strong with a small amount of people.
    Is there anyone yet, like this in the world? Soup
     
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Celtic, I understand what you are saying, but either you are off by one week or I am. The reason I know you are off by one week, being the "70"th week, is because I know that we are not living in "everlasting righteous". YOu think we are.
    You think the 2nd coming occurred in 70 ad.
    if you don't think it occurred in 70 ad & you still await HIs return, then what prophecy isn't used up? Then why is it ok for Christ's 2nd return to occur so far after his 1000 year reign if you allow no time between the 69th & 70 week?
    NO one bought a literal loaf of bread with a spiritual mark of the beast. NOne of preterism makes any sense to me. sorry.
    Rolling thunder gave you a good explanation.
    WE are not living in heaven now.
    There is one more 7 year daniel period (1 week) to fullfill ISrael's history. preterism is like reincarnation with salvation thrown in. I'm refusing the upcoming spiritual mark & making my own bread.
    But actually I believe it's a literal mark.
     
  13. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    I had a discussion with a brother about the apparent “gap” in the 70 weeks. I would like to share what I said to this person.

    Discussing the "gap" theory:

    Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Since we realize and agree that God is speaking with Daniel we understand that “Upon thy people” is referring to the Jews. “Upon thy holy city” is referring to Jerusalem. I believe we can agree that the rest said was confirmed and fulfilled by Jesus Messiah.

    Daniel 9:25 - Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    These 70 weeks started from the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. From that point to Messiah the Prince is a total of 69 weeks (described as seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks). On this I think we agree.

    Daniel 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    We know that Jesus did not destroy the city and the sanctuary (well He actually did using the Roman empire), so He is not the prince referred to in this verse. History tells us that the prince that was said to “shall come” was the Roman Emperor Vespasian (the prince of Rome), his son Titus brought about this destruction in 70 A.D. as representative of the prince of Rome. But this, “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;” is a side note and is not the subject of these verses. The main subject was and is Messiah.

    Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Was not Jesus earthly ministry confirming His covenant with Jews, which lasted 3 ½ years? And after His death, burial, ascension and the pouring out of His Spirit at Pentecost, didn’t He confirm His New Covenant with the Gentiles as well? That’s a total of a week of confirming the covenant with many. From the baptism of Jesus to His ascension was approximately 3 ½ years. From His ascension to the stoning of Stephen was another 3 ½ years.

    In the midst of the week can also be translated in the half of the week (3 ½ years). We know Jesus was crucified 3 ½ years into his earthly ministry. That’s why the sacrifice and the oblation were caused to cease, at least in God’s eyes. No more were the blood of goats and rams needed to cover His people year by year. He paid the ultimate sacrifice and no other sacrifice was/is needed.

    Ephesians 5:2 - And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    Hebrews 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


    Notice this phrase, “He hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” Go back to Daniel 9:24 and it uses the phrase “to make an end of sins.” This undoubtedly was showing that the revelation Daniel was being given was being brought to pass by Jesus according to the book of Hebrews.

    Hebrews 10:4,5 - For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


    The “first” refers to the Old Covenant and the “second” refers to the New Covenant in His blood.

    Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

    Hebrews 10:12 - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


    Christ's sacrifice was completely sufficient, and that He will not start accepting sacrifices again from the Jews. If God does start accepting sacrifices of sheep, goats, and rams then that is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient for all men’s sins (and that contradicts what He says in Hebrews) and therefore, He is not truly the Messiah.

    Continued next thread...
     
  14. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Christian
    Now it may be considered popularly in “Christendom” that this is the “Great Tribulation” to expect in the future, but your scriptures don’t support a gap theory. The only reason many of “Christianity” believe this to be in the future is because they believe there is some sort of gap, not mentioned by God, between the 69th and 70th week. This gap has been growing for centuries and centuries. To date, this gap is now over 1960+ years and counting with no scripture supporting this ever growing number.

    It’s possible and a reasonable expectation to believe that there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week, just like there wasn’t a gap in any of the previous weeks. Now if that be true, and I believe it is, should we not have to reinterpret Daniel, Matthew 23-25, Luke 9 and 21, Mark 8 and 13? Let’s not even get into Revelation because if we don’t understand the foundation of the prophecies that preceded it, we’re bound to jump to all the wrong conclusions.

    I respond by saying the scriptures do not leave us with another view to accept. It doesn’t tell us to expect a gap.

    If you meant you believe the 70 weeks are specifically designated to the Jews, then I agree, more specifically Jerusalem.

    You still have not accounted for the “gap” scripturally. Your still assuming it’s there simply because that is what someone, not the scriptures, must have taught you. The scriptures don’t speak of a “gap” in the 70 weeks. The “gap” and the “church age” are not in the scriptures. Then again, neither is the word “Bible”, but I hope you understand my point.

    Agreed, however, what you might fail to realize (and I say this respectfully) is that the tribulation and judgement spoken of against the Jews by the prophets in the Old Covenant and Jesus Himself was fulfilled to a “T” according to the words they spoke. (I will try to introduce you to the scriptures later.)

    We must at this point define a Jew, scripturally. God was not just the God of Israel. He was God, the Father of all creation, and that includes all men. It was only the nation of Israel (in the Old Covenant) that acknowledged this and would not bow before any other gods (compared to other nations). God’s plan has always been to redeem his creation (referring to all mankind). Not just this race or that race. Anyone (from Adam to today), who would humble himself and pray and seek His face would find Him and be answered, not just a natural Jew. Notice not even Abraham was a Jew. He was a foreigner/stranger. It has always been those that come to Him in faith will be answered. Repent to be made righteous by the blood of Jesus is for all men, not just for natural Israel.

    That is your belief, but show me scriptures that point to this prince of Daniel 9:26 to be antichrist? This description of a prince coming to destroy the city and the sanctuary was a prophecy given by Jesus, which I will show you a little later. (*** - Look for this at the end)

    I think you misunderstood me when I was simply trying to give you historical information regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I was simply stating that Rome destroyed Jerusalem. The 10th Emperor (or prince – scripturally speaking) of Rome was Vespasian. His army general happened to be his son Titus that led the siege against Jerusalem. I was not trying to link scriptural significance with the son Titus and the Emperor (prince).

    For example, when King David committed adultery with Bathsheba there was a war going on. David was not at the site of the battle. He was in his castle (per say). Israel won that war/battle. We could also say that King David won that battle. His army represented him and the kingdom of Israel. So when Titus won the war against the Jews, we could say, and we do, that Rome desolated the city (Jerusalem) and the temple (holy sanctuary).

    Again, someone must have taught you to interpret the scriptures that way by what you said. Someone (or maybe movies) taught you to expect this to happen, because scripture doesn’t say “he” will make a covenant with Israel. It says, “He empowers a covenant with many for a week”, not a covenant with Israel, but with many. It never says in that scripture that he will break his covenant and attack. None of these words are used, except “he”. It says “he” will cause the sacrifice and the oblations to cease. That’s it. To interpret more by adding to this is not wise to gain understanding.

    Regarding Daniel 7:25, I have to get you references, but I will try to tell you off the top of my head. Vespasian was the 10th Emperor of Rome. If my memory serves me correct Nero was the 6th Emperor that persecuted Christians heavily (historically). One of the previous five emperors fulfilled this verse in Daniel 7:25 {I'm still seeking the Truth regarding this though}. To give you an idea (scripturally) of what I’m trying to convey here read Apocalypse 17:10:

    “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

    John, the apostle, wrote this during the reign of the 6th king for he says, “one is” meaning one is presently reigning now.

    Regarding Daniel 12:7, Apocalypse 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5 I will only say this: The siege of Jerusalem that left it completely desolated (including the temple – sanctuary) lasted “For a season, seasons, and an half…” 3 ½ years or 1260 days, and I don’t believe we can brush this off and say its coincidence.

    It’s very easy to try and make current events prophetic. Let me simply say this: Man has been doing that for centuries and have said, “Oh, this is when it’s happening! Because…” and they have all been found to be wrong. Because of this track record therefore, I say, we cannot interpret scripture using current events. Let’s interpret scripture with scripture. Interpreting scripture through current events is slanted according to the paradigm we have made in our mind of what we have come to expect.

    Example: “They” said that when Israel reformed in 1948 that within 40 years (because that is considered one generation scripturally) the tribulation was to come and these prophecies that we think are future were supposed to happen. It didn’t. Then they changed it and said by 1998, for a myriad of reasons. The date keeps on changing and the years keep on counting. This is like building a house on sinking sand. Let’s find the Rock!

    Absolutely, because the gospel message of the kingdom, preached from Pentecost and throughout Acts to this very day, is unchanged. However, it should not be preached out of a fear that He’s coming back, but rather we are His instruments (kings and priests), His body, in which He is using to reconcile the world to Himself through the evangelism we see in Acts.
     
  15. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Christian
    Luke 17:26-36 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Jesus gives two examples of what the days of the Son of Man shall be like. He used Noah and Lot. Judgment was brought about by the flood to destroy all of the wicked, unrepentant of the world. Noah and his family were not destroyed, but they entered the ark, and were LEFT BEHIND on earth.

    Lot went out from Sodom and the judgment destroyed Sodom. But Lot was LEFT BEHIND on earth, as well. Yet many in Christianity use this verse to say that this is what the rapture will be like. Yet they conveniently put aside the fact that Noah and Lot were actually LEFT BEHIND, not taken away.

    Luke 17:32-33 - Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    Lot’s wife turned into salt for looking back. Jesus said remember her and don’t even think of keeping your possessions, but go and flee to the mountains.

    Matthew 24:16-18 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    He spoke this to the Jews and said this applies to your generation.

    Matthew 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


    Is there any question that “This generation” refers to the people He was speaking to presently? Since this is true, a biblical generation is 40 years. He spoke this in the years between 30-33 A.D. You add forty years you get 70-73 A.D. We can’t put this aside as a coincidence either.

    Luke 17:34-36 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Look at the words used in this scripture: one shall be taken, the other shall be left. Noah and Lot were never taken. The unrepentant wicked were taken by the judgment that befell them. Noah and Lot were left (LEFT BEHIND). That’s scripturally interpreting what the verse said and not allowing it to say what we want it to say.

    ***Lastly:
    Parallel passages sometimes give a better, bigger picture of what was said and conveyed.

    It doesn't say what is the abomination that makes desolate in Daniel.

    Daniel 12:11 - And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    It doesn’t tell us in Matthew, either, what is the abomination of desolation.

    Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    But in Luke…

    Luke 21:20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    When Jerusalem is encompassed with armies, then they would know that the desolation is about to happen, the desolation of the city and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26). Rome surrounded Jerusalem for 3 ½ years causing the inhabitants of the walled city, Jerusalem, to suffer famine, pestilence, sword and fire (look in Ezekiel for that prophetic fulfillment). Historically, we know the end result in 70 A.D. This is becoming far too coincidental that the words that Jesus and the prophets spoke have come to pass, vividly.

    Wow, I know this is long. I hope you have the patience to read, study and consider (like a Berean) what has been presented.
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    jbenjesus, I have read studied, etc. I agree that the last week of Daniel COULD have been fulfilled up to the day of Pentecost.


    But the destruction of Jesusalem you speak of was 70 yrs AFTER PENTECOST. There's a gap there. The 70 weeks were already used up.You are not counting the destruction as part of the 70 weeks.
    ANy of us could be off a week. If I concede that the 70 weeks are used up, and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD according to Dan.9, then that still leaves the 2nd coming to occur, the mark of the beast, the 1000 year reign, etc. as far as unfullfilled prophecy goes.
    NOw if you say that these things also have occurred, you are obviously mistaken. Although I can concede that Daniel 9 may have been fullfilled, I can still see clearly that the other prophecy mentioned above has not. Saying Christ already returned in 70 Ad & ruled until 1070 is ludicrous. The mark being a "spiritual mark" changes the meaning of "buying & selling" altogether. Preterists are better at making past events concur with their misinterpretation as well. Premillenialists are not alone in making events fit their interpretation.
     
  17. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Wow, thank you jbenjesus.

    I hear allot of stuff concerning prophesy and I get confused at were people get there Ideas from.

    From a historical point of view the bible and its prophecies are extremely clear to me.

    I try to tell Christians how I simply read what it says from a historical point of view by I always end up overwhelmed by popular opinion even though it is wrong.

    I was just about to concede to popular opinion again and you saved me, thank you for your learner accounts.

    Yea, I read it all, it was great reading. But, what is a Berean??? :D

    Debbie, you just spent the time to tell me that I was wrong and why I shouldn’t think all the prophesies are past (which I don’t, I agree with you, there is much to come), and then you hear jben and his historical education and you concede to the fact that I was most likely right about this prophesy and then you go on to say that the mark of the beast isn’t past though. Do you need another history lesson Debbie? I can tell you one thing, you shouldn’t be to shore of what they have told you is the truth of bible prophesy.


    jben,
    just when I was starting to think that I must have been getting it all wrong, I was on the verge of relooking into something that made no sense at all. that now you have shown me that what I see is actually as simple as it is, I don’t need to see why others think it is this and that because now I am 100 % shore I know what these scriptures mean.

    Thank you again

    Could you comment on these statements I am about to make to THUNDER???


    Hi THUNDER,
    I actually agree with this thunder (except the 7 yrs), I still personally see the great tribulation ahead and the great and trouble day of the lord to follow, I see the catching away before the great and trouble day of the lord and after the great tribulation and I see a 1000 yrs of peace that jesus will bring with him after the GTD of the lord.

    I then see Satan loosed and the great army of Gog and then I see the great JUDGMENT of all the living and the dead. And then there will be a new heaven and earth created was we would dwell on earth in paradise.

    So, I still see allot to come. I see that the European tribes will rise up with the pope and bring in the tribulation and Rome will burn.

    This is all future prophesy to me, wether I am right or wrong, I just want to make the point that I don’t think every thing was in the past.

    EZE 38 is still to come in my opinion.

    But denial ch 9 is completely fulfilled, no doubt about that now. Thanks to the support of jben, I now see that I am not alone in what I see so clearly.


    What I don’t see though and I would appreciate someone showing me, without using denial ch 9;

    Were do Christians get a figure of 7 yrs for the antichrist????

    I need to know because the Vatican papacy reign is so obviously the anti Christ of scripture and it has been in place since the falling away of the Roman Empire. 1500 yrs at least and fulfils so much of bible prophesy that to not see it is to miss most all of bible prophesies ability to understand things.

    So, the question for all is;

    Were do Christians get a figure of 7 yrs for the antichrist????(without using Daniel ch 9 to do it)?????

    Please ,why does the whole Christian church believe in a 7 yr Tribulation and antichrist reign?????????????


    Thanks

    celtic
     
  18. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
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    Christian
    Hi Celtic,

    Berean's were people that were considered more noble than Thessalonicans because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true.

    Acts 17:10,11 - And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    By the way, be softer on Debbie. We're all not there yet. I sure am not, but concerning prophecy, this is simply where I am.

    I was pre-trib most all my life b/c I didn't study the word and I believed whatever was popular. When I did search the scriptures for myself, I saw more evidence for a post-trib view. However, I had questions in that view and I kept searching.

    I don't question at all Jesus' return for His body, to present to Himself a glorious bride. What I question is the idea of a tribulation that predates that event. Some say 3.5 years and others say 7 years and call one tribulation and the other great tribulation.

    In my searching, during my post-trib stage, I found out that to believe in the in pre-mid or post you must believe there is a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. Now I don't understand all of Daniel or Revelation, but I could not support any type of belief that there is a gap which shoots the 70th week of Daniel into the future. This is a futurists assumption which I cannot and have not been able to support.

    I see the contrary and so for this period of time I have left pre-mid-post trib altogether. The Church has suffered tribulation from its birth to today. The greatest sin committed is crucifying the Lord of Glory. The Jews did that with Rome as it's accomplice. Rome, to me, was the beast that the Jerusalem rode on and they suffered the greatest tribulation. The destruction in 70 AD brought famine, pestilence, sword and fire and destroyed the temple just as Jesus prophesied would happen to them for their rejection of Him in Matthew 20-25. I don't understand all of it, but I know Jesus spoke those scriptures to the Jews of Jerusalem and said all these things will come upon THIS GENERATION. I know scripturally, a generation is considered 40 years.

    Jesus historically died between 30-33 AD. The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem happened within 40 years. I think Debbie did her math wrong b/c I don't know where she got 70 years from Pentecost. It was definitely within 40 years.

    To Debbie:

    Daniel 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    This is what I said about "the people of the prince":
    This part of the prophecy is a result of the Messiah being cut off.

    The only thing that is supposed to happen within the 70 weeks are these 6 things (not the destruction of the city and the sanctuary):

    Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Jesus Christ fulfilled these to a "T" whether we understand it or not. The prophecy is regarding Messiah and the fulfillment of His Covenant to His people.

    This Daniel chapter 9 really preaches about Christ and the cross.

    To Celtic again:

    As to the 2 questions about "the antichrist", check out the thread entitled "The Antichrist" or something like that in the prophecy area. I thought I made some valid scriptural points there, but no one seemed to have heard. They kept wanting to be led in there "diS pENSATIONALIST " viewpoint that they could not think "outside the box", which really is looking at scripture to define and determine for us the meanings of it's own terms.

    To you Celtic, I cannot recommend anyone more highly right now concerning prophecy than brother Michael F. Blume. He's a pastor in Cananda and God has really given him insight and revelation in understanding Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation by using scripture to identify and understand other terms in scripture.

    His whole ministry is a blessing because his greatest burden is that you would know Him (Jesus) more and more.

    His prophecy section can be found and read for free at this address entitled Prophecy. If for some reason the link here doesn't work, it's at http://mikeblume.com/prophecy1.htm .

    The whole site is found here entitled That I May Know Him or use http://mikeblume.com.
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    Sometimes people cannot see what you really mean if you don;t word it properly, thus leaving you misunderstood. I am not flopping back & forth in my views as one thought, I remain open to the fact that the 69 weeks could be used up, or the 70 weeks could be used up. I can agree to both because I don't know for SURE. They only way to come to a conclusion is to remain open to all scripture concerning it.
    BUt, the day of pentecost was shortly after Christ's ascension. It was posted that 69 weeks were used up at that point. It was posted that what occured in 70 A.D. was fulfilling the last, 70th, week. There is a gap then from Pentecost to 70 A.D., & if your theory as posted ,is that there should be no gaps, then you are contradicting your own theory. What does it matter if it is 70 year gap, 40 yr gap, or 2000 yr gap? I am not criticizing, flopping, or being closed minded.
    I have never met anyone who believed that the 70 weeks were fullfilled, while at the same time believing the trib was a future event. Thank you for telling me to take another history lesson celtic crusader.
    People get the idea of another 7yr period from daniel & rev. If you believe that the 70th week has been fulfilled, then it amazes me how one can believe rev 13(dan7), or rev 12 (dan9). So I see contradiction in believing the 70th week has been fulfilled, but yet the trib has not.
     
  20. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Debbie,

    For me, do me a favor, and quote where I said this so I can fix it or maybe it was misunderstood in my explanation.

    I will reiterate, in case it was glanced over.

    To Debbie:

    Daniel 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    This part of the prophecy is a result of the Messiah being cut off. It is a side note and not the main subject of the text of Daniel 9:24-27. Because Messiah was rejected & crucified by Jerusalem (the Jews), a judgment would be brought on that city and sanctuary that the prince (the king - Caesar was claimed as the king by the religious leaders who said, "we have no king, but Caesar") of the people will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    Many futurists say that antichrist is being talked about in verse 27. I don't see antichrist being talked about at all in the whole entire chapter. Again, the subject of those verses is not about antichrist. It's about Messiah and what He would accomplish for His people within 70 weeks (490 years) from the decree to rebuild the temple by Cyrus.

    The only thing that is supposed to happen within the 70 weeks are these 6 things (not the destruction of the city and the sanctuary) :

    Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Jesus Christ fulfilled these to a "T" whether we understand it or not. The prophecy is regarding Messiah and the fulfillment of His Covenant to His people.

    This Daniel chapter 9 really preaches about Christ and the cross.

    If I remember correctly, the day of pentecost was 10 days after Christ's ascension, 50 days from His death. The 69 weeks were from the decree to rebuild the temple to the presentation of Jesus as the Messiah to Israel at His baptism by John the Baptist. Jesus ministered for 3 1/2 years (middle of the final week) before He was cut off (crucified). And 3 1/2 years after that Stephen was stoned to death which caused the gospel to be spread from Jerusalem to the rest of the world.

    This to me fulfills the scripture saying He will confirm the covenan with many, from verse 27. He did so through the His gospel.

    I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
     
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