Robert Hall, in his essay, "The Ascension of Isaiah: Community Situation, Date, and Place in Early Christianity", points to John 3:13, which says, "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." He also notes how John 6:46 says, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."
Robert Hall contrasts these verses in John's Gospel with how John's Revelation describes John ascending to heaven, and how the Ascension of Isaiah describes Isaiah's visions of ascending to heaven and apparently seeing God the Father.
In Chapter 6 of the Ascension of Isaiah, a glorious angel tells Isaiah, "Thou wilt see how a greater also than I am will speak courteously and peaceably with thee. And His Father also who is greater thou wilt see; for this purpose have I been sent from the seventh heaven in order to explain all these things unto thee." Later in Chapter 9 of the Ascension of Isaiah, the angel says, "This is the Most High of the high ones, dwelling in the holy world, and resting in His holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit through the lips of the righteous 'the Father of the Lord.'
Hall notes that in the Ascension of Isaiah, Satan complains that Isaiah says he saw God (as noted in Isaiah 6), despite Moses' claim that No man can see God and live. Hall proposes that the author of the Ascension is using this debate as a way to defend claims of divine visions by the author's group. He concludes:
There are two basic questions that I want to ask:
(Question 1) Does John 3:13 contradict believers making divine, heavenly ascents?
In other words, what do you make of John 3:13 ("No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven..."), since Eljiah's journey, the Book of Revelation, and Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, seem to describe believers making such ascents? Elijah rode a chariot up into the sky, and Paul in an epistle wrote that he knew a man who ascended to the Third Heaven. Many scholars connect the author of Revelation, who ascended in his book, with John the Evangelist. Even if they are different Johns, they would seem like part of the same Christian group.
The Russian theologian explains that the original of John 3:13 ended "the Son of Man, who is in Heaven", based on the manuscripts. And Augustine explains that since Christ ascended into heaven, the verse implies that believers (like John in the Revelation and Paul's acquaintance) ascend with Christ, since they are considered His body: "After taking notice of this lack of knowledge in a person, who, on the strength of his magisterial station, set himself above others, and blaming the unbelief of such men, our Lord says, that if such as these do not believe, others will: No one has ascended into heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven. This may be rendered: The spiritual birth shall be of such sort, as that men from being earthly shall become heavenly: which will not be possible, except they are made members of Me; so that he who ascends, becomes one with Him who descended. Our Lord accounts His body, i.e. His Church, as Himself."(quoted in Aquinas' Golden Chain commentary on John 3:13).
(Question 2) Does John 6:46 contradict believers having seen God the Father, like in the Ascension of Isaiah?
It seems that rhetoric about no one seeing God needs to have exceptions, since John 1 said no one but Jesus saw God, but then says later in 1 John 4:12: "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us." And later, in John 14:9-10, Jesus explains that actually someone can see the Father by seeing Jesus: "Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? "
I also considered the possibility that John 6:46 could just mean that no one else saw the Father in his ultimate divine substance. Also, perhaps "seeing" the Father in this case refers to seeing "Him" in the metaphorical sense of "understanding" Him. But this does not seem very likely, because many people have somewhat understood aspects of God, like His love.
In Genesis, Abraham met God in the form of three angels, apparently referring to the Trinity.
Like Abraham, perhaps Moses and the elders on Mount Sinai also saw God in a sense, since they saw his feet. The Russian theologian Lopuhin comments on the verse in Exodus about Moses seeing God:
Here is the passage in Ascension of Isaiah, when Isaiah is being wrongly accused to the king about his visions:
More specifically while there are OT visions of God, John 6:46 specifically limits those who saw God the Father. The Ascension of Isaiah apparently portrays Isaiah seeing God, because In Asc. Isaiah Chp. 7, an angel tells Isaiah that he will see the Lord's Father:
So the Ascension of Isaiah might not be talking about seeing the Father in the way that John 6:46 means.
I raised this question about John 3 & 6 on the Monachos Forum before that forum closed.
Phoebe K. replied:
Kosta wrote:
Robert Hall contrasts these verses in John's Gospel with how John's Revelation describes John ascending to heaven, and how the Ascension of Isaiah describes Isaiah's visions of ascending to heaven and apparently seeing God the Father.
In Chapter 6 of the Ascension of Isaiah, a glorious angel tells Isaiah, "Thou wilt see how a greater also than I am will speak courteously and peaceably with thee. And His Father also who is greater thou wilt see; for this purpose have I been sent from the seventh heaven in order to explain all these things unto thee." Later in Chapter 9 of the Ascension of Isaiah, the angel says, "This is the Most High of the high ones, dwelling in the holy world, and resting in His holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit through the lips of the righteous 'the Father of the Lord.'
Hall notes that in the Ascension of Isaiah, Satan complains that Isaiah says he saw God (as noted in Isaiah 6), despite Moses' claim that No man can see God and live. Hall proposes that the author of the Ascension is using this debate as a way to defend claims of divine visions by the author's group. He concludes:
Many scholars think that the Ascension of Isaiah is a Docetic/Gnostic text, albeit with some orthodox Christian editing. If so, one need not reconcile the views of John's Gospel and the Ascension of Isaiah, as differences would be expected. Still, it is worth understanding John's Gospel on the topic.The author writes the Ascension of Isaiah as a member of this early Christian prophetic school seeking to persuade a recalcitrant church to accept the all important doctrine of the descent and ascent of the Beloved.
(The Ascension of Isaiah: Community Situation, Date, and Place in Early Christianity on JSTOR)
There are two basic questions that I want to ask:
(Question 1) Does John 3:13 contradict believers making divine, heavenly ascents?
In other words, what do you make of John 3:13 ("No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven..."), since Eljiah's journey, the Book of Revelation, and Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, seem to describe believers making such ascents? Elijah rode a chariot up into the sky, and Paul in an epistle wrote that he knew a man who ascended to the Third Heaven. Many scholars connect the author of Revelation, who ascended in his book, with John the Evangelist. Even if they are different Johns, they would seem like part of the same Christian group.
The Russian theologian explains that the original of John 3:13 ended "the Son of Man, who is in Heaven", based on the manuscripts. And Augustine explains that since Christ ascended into heaven, the verse implies that believers (like John in the Revelation and Paul's acquaintance) ascend with Christ, since they are considered His body: "After taking notice of this lack of knowledge in a person, who, on the strength of his magisterial station, set himself above others, and blaming the unbelief of such men, our Lord says, that if such as these do not believe, others will: No one has ascended into heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven. This may be rendered: The spiritual birth shall be of such sort, as that men from being earthly shall become heavenly: which will not be possible, except they are made members of Me; so that he who ascends, becomes one with Him who descended. Our Lord accounts His body, i.e. His Church, as Himself."(quoted in Aquinas' Golden Chain commentary on John 3:13).
(Question 2) Does John 6:46 contradict believers having seen God the Father, like in the Ascension of Isaiah?
It seems that rhetoric about no one seeing God needs to have exceptions, since John 1 said no one but Jesus saw God, but then says later in 1 John 4:12: "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us." And later, in John 14:9-10, Jesus explains that actually someone can see the Father by seeing Jesus: "Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? "
I also considered the possibility that John 6:46 could just mean that no one else saw the Father in his ultimate divine substance. Also, perhaps "seeing" the Father in this case refers to seeing "Him" in the metaphorical sense of "understanding" Him. But this does not seem very likely, because many people have somewhat understood aspects of God, like His love.
In Genesis, Abraham met God in the form of three angels, apparently referring to the Trinity.
Like Abraham, perhaps Moses and the elders on Mount Sinai also saw God in a sense, since they saw his feet. The Russian theologian Lopuhin comments on the verse in Exodus about Moses seeing God:
If one checks the verse in Exodus, it actually says that Moses, being a man, could not see God's "face". It doesn't specify that Moses couldn't see God at all. In fact, Exodus 24:10 talks about the elders visiting and seeing God: "and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself."As one not having the ability to see the Lord, Moses sees only the shining of the divine glory: "you see Me from behind".
Here is the passage in Ascension of Isaiah, when Isaiah is being wrongly accused to the king about his visions:
In Isaiah's case, perhaps the same distinction existed between ways to see God as in the Mount Sinai experience? ie. Isaiah was only seeing God like the elders did, but not His face in particular?8. And Isaiah himself has said: ‘I see more than Moses the prophet’.
9. But Moses said: ‘No man can see God and live’; and Isaiah has said: ‘I have seen God and behold I live’.
10. Know therefore, king, that he is lying.
More specifically while there are OT visions of God, John 6:46 specifically limits those who saw God the Father. The Ascension of Isaiah apparently portrays Isaiah seeing God, because In Asc. Isaiah Chp. 7, an angel tells Isaiah that he will see the Lord's Father:
In the account, in Chp. 9-10, Isaiah sees two glorious ones, whom I think are the Son (called here the "Lord) and Holy Spirit, in the 7th Heaven. Next, Isaiah glimpses the Father's glory but then is temporarily unable to see, although the righteous see His glory:“And you will see how a greater also than I am will speak courteously and peaceably with you.
And His Father also who is greater you will see; for for this purpose have I been sent from the seventh heaven in order to explain all these things unto you”
In Chapter 11, Isaiah recounts a vision that he has of Christ meeting the Father:9:37. And I saw the great glory, the eyes of my spirit being open, and I could not thereupon see, nor yet could the angel who was with me, nor all the angels whom I had seen worshipping my Lord.
9:38. But I saw the righteous beholding with great power the glory of that One.
9:39 And my Lord drew nigh to me and the angel of the Spirit and He said: “See how it is given to you to see
God, and on your account power is given to the angel who is with you”.
...
And all [praises] were being sent up to that Glorious One whose glory I could not behold.
...
And I heard the angel who conducted me and he said: “This is the Most High of the high ones, dwelling in the holy world, and resting in His holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit through the lips of the righteous the Father of the Lord”.
And I heard the voice of the Most High the Father of my Lord saying to my Lord Christ who will be called Jesus:
10:8. “Go forth and descend through all the heavens, and you will descend to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol you will descend, but to Haguel you will not go.
...
These commands I heard the Great Glory giving to) my Lord.
So whereas in Chapter 7 the guiding angel tells Isaiah that he will see the Father, the account only narrates him seeing the Father's glory for a moment and the righteous beholding His glory.And then I saw Him sit down on the right hand of that Great Glory whose glory I told you that I could not behold.
So the Ascension of Isaiah might not be talking about seeing the Father in the way that John 6:46 means.
I raised this question about John 3 & 6 on the Monachos Forum before that forum closed.
Phoebe K. replied:
You have managed to find one of the thorniest areas in Biblical studies where there is not current consensus. In principle the disagreement relies on the difference between the two principle tradition in the Old Testament, the El tradition which can be associated with First Temple Theology and to some extent the mystical side of the Jewish beliefs at the time of Christ; and the Yahweh tradition which was the belief of temple post the reforms of Joshua and especially the second Temple priesthood (think Sadducees of the Gospels).
The beliefs of the first temple are complex and contested there are no simple explanations and even as a academic in a related field I struggle to follow them (that is despite the beliefs being the basis in part of early ecclesiology which I specialise in). The possibility of seeing God is all bound up with beliefs around the resurrection and heavenly priesthood which is not well understood.
Part of the issue with understanding the hebrew texts especially the Prophecies is that the core we now have of the OT is relent on what was in use in Alexandria when the Septuagint was translated or the carefully edited texts which obscured the coming of Christ. Texts such as the fragments found in the Dead Sea scrolls shows the diversity of texts in circulation in the first century CE.
This is an area which is still being researched and in a few years the situation may be clearer, although it may never be fully understood.
(Phoebe K., 03 March 2019)
Kosta wrote:
I don't agree with Kosta's implication that Elijah didn't ascend to heaven. There are a lot of reasons why I think that the Hebrew story implies that he went to heaven, like how Elisha cried that Elijah left him and that people looked for Elijah but couldn't find him. So I don't read the story of Elijah's ascent to mean that he just took a trip through the air "as if" he had ascended to heaven.The only thing the OT visions witness is the pre-incarnate Christ. St. Theodore the Studite in his writings make this clear. It's also made clear in the Synodikon of Orthodoxy.
In the case of Elijah the Septuagint does not say he ascended into heaven, but it was "as if" he ascended into heaven.
(Kosta, 2019)
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