Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

[armothe]

Originally posted by JesusServant
Yes.  Preterists have to believe this.  As if Jesus would have the nazis murder so many innocent Jews in His Kingdom.  BAH!

You might want to quote scripture to help prove your point about there being no murder in His kingdom.

-A

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by armothe
You might want to quote scripture to help prove your point about there being no murder in His kingdom.

-A

Unless you don't understand that murder presents a situation where death is involved and death is conquered in His Kingdom, so uh... of course there is no murder in His Kingdom.  Satan would like you to blame God and think that God is a slave driver and all bad things are punishment from God (including death), but Satan is a liar my friend.

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by JesusServant
Unless you don't understand that murder presents a situation where death is involved and death is conquered in His Kingdom, so uh... of course there is no murder in His Kingdom.  Satan would like you to blame God and think that God is a slave driver and all bad things are punishment from God (including death), but Satan is a liar my friend.

Once again, you forgot to quote scripture.

Fact is the Bible never claims there is no murder in the New Jerusalem. Just admit you can't prove this with scripture.

I'm sure you believe in spiritual death, right? This is exactly the type of death Christ conquered when he established, and subsequently completed His kingdom in 70AD.

-A

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by armothe
Once again, you forgot to quote scripture.

Fact is the Bible never claims there is no murder in the New Jerusalem. Just admit you can't prove this with scripture.

I'm sure you believe in spiritual death, right? This is exactly the type of death Christ conquered when he established, and subsequently completed His kingdom in 70AD.

-A

No, I don't believe in spiritual death. 

Can't prove it with scripture???

(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I'm thinking murder requires death, but I'm not very bright either so... who knows?

 

[JesusServant]

Oopsie daisy waisy-poo double post

(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Sorry posted that scripture again...

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by JesusServant
No, I don't believe in spiritual death.

 

Really? And what was the point of Christ dying on the Cross?

What happens to those who do not accept Him as their Savior?

 

Originally posted by JesusServant
Can't prove it with scripture???

(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I'm thinking murder requires death, but I'm not very bright either so... who knows?

Scripture proves there will be no death in the New Kingdom. It speaks nothing of murder, manslaughter, suicide........Why? Because the "death" it speaks of is spiritual.

You believe there is no "pain" (physical) in the New Kingdom? What happens when I step too close to a fire? How will I know I'm too close?Pain (while sometimes annoying) is essential to our lives. Do you suggest we won't have a nervous system in our glorified bodies?

You believe there is no more "crying" (physical) in the New Kingdom? What about tears of joy? Will we even have tear ducts in our new and glorified bodies?

Between you and Joj, you should come up with a list of how things work in the New Kingdom. I'd be interested in reading your synopsis.

-A





 

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by armothe
  Really? And what was the point of Christ dying on the Cross?

So that we could be redeemed back to God and forgiven for our sins in this life and be offered once again the promise of eternal life.

What happens to those who do not accept Him as their Savior?

We sleep (death is referred to as sleep over 50 times in the New Testament) until Judgment Day when we will be judged and either accepted into the Kingdom of God (if our names are found in the Book of Life) or thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Scripture proves there will be no death in the New Kingdom. It speaks nothing of murder, manslaughter, suicide........Why? Because the "death" it speaks of is spiritual.

Sorry, wrong.  Now you must give scripture that proves the spirit can die.  When your flesh dies it goes back to the earth in which it came and the soul (breath of God) goes back to God.  We will be asleep until judgment when the redeemed will be given a new transfigured/glorified body in the twinkling of an eye.

You believe there is no "pain" (physical) in the New Kingdom? What happens when I step too close to a fire? How will I know I'm too close?Pain (while sometimes annoying) is essential to our lives. Do you suggest we won't have a nervous system in our glorified bodies?

There will be no pain, I think it's pretty simple.  Both mental and physical.  Why will we need fire?  The light of the Glory of God will be our light and I'm certain we won't be cold.

You believe there is no more "crying" (physical) in the New Kingdom? What about tears of joy? Will we even have tear ducts in our new and glorified bodies?

I would believe it without any false doctrine changing my mind.  It doesn't say anything about tear ducts, why can't you let go of your old body?  Just because you don't know what it will be like doesn't mean it cannot be.  All things are possible with God and if He can do away with all negative aspects that we deal with now I believe that He will and I believe on this promise I pray that you will believe Him too one day.  Don't limit what God is capable of, I assure you we wouldn't believe it if any prophet wrote what the New Kingdom will be like word for word and every detail because there probably aren't words to describe it to date.

Between you and Joj, you should come up with a list of how things work in the New Kingdom. I'd be interested in reading your synopsis.

While this is meant as cutting and sarcastic, I will still love you as a brother in Christ.  You are in a different place in your walk with Christ and will hopefully see things more clearly one day.  I may not be right about everything in the Bible, nor is any one man I would assume but I'm pretty sure what death, tears, mourning, crying and pain are and I'll be real sure when they pass away.  Why?  Because God has shown me what these things are by experience not by reading a book and therefor I can describe them.  Once I have experienced the splendor of the Kingdom of God (if I'm deemed worthy) then I will be able to describe it as well.

I gave you the scripture you said I couldn't give, then you resort to using no scriptures whatsoever to support your claim that death is alive and well in the Kingdom of God.

God bless you!

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Joj
"4) Forgiveness of sins is an everlasting reality thanks to Christ's work on the cross."

Only for those who have put their faith in what was done for us at the cross.

So you are suggesting that at some future time, forgiveness of sins will be an everlasting reality for those who don't put their faith in what was done on the cross?

Interesting view.

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by JesusServant
I gave you the scripture you said I couldn't give, then you resort to using no scriptures whatsoever to support your claim that death is alive and well in the Kingdom of God.
Now you must give scripture that proves the spirit can die.

John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Still don't believe in Spiritual Death verses Spiritual life?

Hello? This is the whole concept of Salvation here. If you believe the message of Christ - that He was sent to die for man's sins - you are saved! You have eternal life! You are a Christian!
If you do not....you remain dead...spiritually.....and remain a non-Christian.

Non-Christian = Spiritually dead
Christian = Spiritually alive

In Christ's Kingdom (Salvation) we have spiritual life!
If you remain outside His kingdom you are spiritually dead!

Unless......do you believe that by believing in Christ's Gospel we have everlasting PHYSICAL life?

Originally posted by JesusServant
I will still love you as a brother in Christ. 

I think that is great and I can reciprocate the feelings, but since you don't believe in spiritual death verses spiritual life, I am having trouble coming to grips as to whether you understand what Christ's sacrifice was all about....which obviously effects our brothership in Christ Jesus.

-A

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Joj
"Actually, it is you who claims it is not a metaphore, not me."

WHAT??? Earlier you said those passages were speaking metaphoricly. Then you go on to ask......"How is the "Child playing on the snake pit" NOT a Christian????"

Joj, I'll go slow this time, and break it down for ya.

1) you claim the Child/snake is NOT metaphore but literal, physical reality to be found ONLY in the new Heavens and earth.

2)You claim only Christ believers will exist in the New Heavens and earth.

3 You claim the Child playing safely on the snake pit is not a Christ believer.

Please reconcile this contradiction.

"Your theology insists that Jews have extra requirements above and beyond faith in Christ for them to achieve salvation."

They don't have seperate requirments today. ALL men, Jew and Gentile are saved through faith in what Christ did for us without any works.

But your theology insists that one day in the future, Jews will again have extra requirements above and beyond belief in Jesus, and in fact will be required to  offer blood animal sacrifices for atonement directly to Jesus Christ Himself.

Again, I reject that notion of "Backwards redemption" outright. 

BTW, as you pointed out, In Biblical times, Jews who were Christ believers were required to follow the Law.
As I asked before, at what point were they absolved of that requirement? As far as I can assertain, You claim it was sometime AFTER the cross, but have offered no termination point.

Curious indeed.

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by JesusServant
There will be no pain, I think it's pretty simple.  Both mental and physical.  Why will we need fire?  The light of the Glory of God will be our light and I'm certain we won't be cold.

Oh, okay...so now there is no fire either.

Originally posted by JesusServant
It doesn't say anything about tear ducts, why can't you let go of your old body?

Okay, if we don't/can't cry, what is the need for tear ducts? I'm making a logical assumption here.
 

Originally posted by JesusServant
Just because you don't know what it will be like doesn't mean it cannot be.  All things are possible with God and if He can do away with all negative aspects that we deal with now

Oh, that's right. God is going to reverse nature entirely from the way he originally created it.

Get rid of the Sun because its no longer needed.
If the Sun is gone, what will the earth orbit?
Is there a need for gravity anymore? Centripetal force?
Remove the nervous system from our bodies so we don't feel pain.
Remove the digestive system from our bodies because we can't eat (Eating involves killing).
Wipe out all physical evil because Christ's sacrifice is not enough to overcome sin/evil.

Perhaps it sounds sarcastic, but I am merely questioning how all of this will work if we interpret it physically. I mean, if you are so sure these are physical attributes of the New Kingdom, perhaps you could ponder how these things will work, and shed some light on the subject.

-A

 

[parousia70]

Good point about the tear ducts armothe, I never thought of that before.
Surely the futurist must admit that we will have tear ducts if he believes our spirits get re united with our physical bodies.

Christ's resurrection Body had tear ducts. It was the same body He died in after all.

The "tears of Joy" thing was great too..never thought of that either!
The futurist insists that God won't allow tears of Joy in the New H&E!


quite the quandry

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by JesusServant
So that we could be redeemed back to God and  Just because you don't know what it will be like doesn't mean it cannot be.  All things are possible with God and if He can do away with all negative aspects that we deal with now I believe that He will and I believe on this promise I pray that you will believe Him too one day.  Don't limit what God is capable of,

I'm amazed by this futurist reaoning every time I come across it!

Try as he might to keep it "physical",when pressed for details the futurist must admit and profess that the 2nd coming, and all subsequent events, can only be understood and explained by their spiritual nature. ie: "with God, anything is possible".

In reality, it is the futurist that is limiting God capabilities by claiming God can not accomplish the defeat of sin and suffering spiritually, that as long as sin exists, He/we can have no victory over it.

How they explain Sin and suffering existing forever in the Lake of Fire, if Sin can not exist at all for God and the elect to be victorious, continues to baffle me however.

 

[Joj]

Okay, so let me get this straight.

1) Christ comes back - but you won't be here when he does.

Correct. Before Christ comes back to earth He comes for His Church and meets us in the sir. From that point on were are to forever be with the Lord

2) Christ does away with all sin,evil, and death on earth - but does not destroy the old earth.

Correct. He comes back and reigns here for 1000 years before there is the new earth.

3) Christ then changes the nature of the animal kingdom (and plant kingdom?) so they are tame.

Correct again, (I dont recall anything about all the plants being tamed though). Good question, maybe venus fly traps will cease to eat flies.

"So, what...will the animals and plants live forever, just as humans do?"

Check out the scriptures, I think they say there will be no more death if I recall. See what you can come up with contrary to that.

"- What do we eat, what do the animals eat? We can't eat animals, or plants because we'd have to slaughter them."

Well God did say He would provide for all needs in His kingdom. Ever here of mannah?

-" Do we even need to eat?"

Not sure, but probably can. Ever hear of the marriage supper of the Lamb?
- Why then are animals and plants even around?

"- If I step on an ant will it die?"

Not according to scripture. Do you have any that contradict NO MORE DEATH?

"Please, educate me on how this New Kingdom on earth will work. Please be specific."

I think you would believe the bible more than me. Why dont you consult it and save us both time. Just look up kingdom in your concordance and read all about it. It really is quite interesting.

" Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”

Correct, it is out of Heaven. Kingdom of Heaven would be better translated OUT OF HEAVEN.

"The Jews expected the Messiah to come and be a physical king who would rule over them on the earth. Obviously they were wrong."

Correct again, they expected a Powerfull mighty king who would put His enemies under His foot, rule with a rod of iron like the ot prophets testified.
They were not wrong, they just didnt know Gods plan A. The cross, it was hid from them.

"What makes you think Christ will change His mind and come back to earth to be our physical king?"

I dont think He will come back to be our King. He is our saviour. It was Israel, Abrahams seed that were promised a King and a Kingdom. The body of Christ is seated in the heavenlies. We do not inherit the earth. Our hope is eternal in the heavenlies.

Are you ever gonna answer my questions as often as I answer yours?


His......Joj

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by parousia70
I'm amazed by this futurist reaoning every time I come across it!

Try as he might to keep it "physical",when pressed for details the futurist must admit and profess that the 2nd coming, and all subsequent events, can only be understood and explained by their spiritual nature. ie: "with God, anything is possible".

In reality, it is the futurist that is limiting God capabilities by claiming God can not accomplish the defeat of sin and suffering spiritually, that as long as sin exists, He/we can have no victory over it.

How they explain Sin and suffering existing forever in the Lake of Fire, if Sin can not exist at all for God and the elect to be victorious, continues to baffle me however.

What is your point?  I can see you are baffled, but other than that, I don't see your point.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by JesusServant
What is your point?  I can see you are baffled, but other than that, I don't see your point.

LOL,

I guess my point is that the futurist goes through great pains to avoid resting his theology on the 'spiritual' nature of it's fulfillment, only to rely on the 'spiritual' argument himself when pressed for 'physical'details.

extremely inconsistant.

(BTW, I wasn't laughing at you, I know how sensitive you can be to the LOL)

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by armothe
Oh, okay...so now there is no fire either.



Okay, if we don't/can't cry, what is the need for tear ducts? I'm making a logical assumption here.
 


Oh, that's right. God is going to reverse nature entirely from the way he originally created it.

Get rid of the Sun because its no longer needed.
If the Sun is gone, what will the earth orbit?
Is there a need for gravity anymore? Centripetal force?
Remove the nervous system from our bodies so we don't feel pain.
Remove the digestive system from our bodies because we can't eat (Eating involves killing).
Wipe out all physical evil because Christ's sacrifice is not enough to overcome sin/evil.

Read your Bible.  Jesus ate bread, to show he still had physical form, but I'm sure he didn't have to eat.

Perhaps it sounds sarcastic, but I am merely questioning how all of this will work if we interpret it physically. I mean, if you are so sure these are physical attributes of the New Kingdom, perhaps you could ponder how these things will work, and shed some light on the subject.

-A

I have nothing to prove to you my friend.

Have you even read Revelation armothe?

(Revelation 21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Is it so far fetched to not need the sun?  I believe that we're more flesh than spirit now, but we'll be more spirit than flesh then, this is JUST MY BELIEF nothing biblical persay.

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by parousia70
LOL,

I guess my point is that the futurist goes through great pains to avoid resting his theology on the 'spiritual' nature of it's fulfillment, only to rely on the 'spiritual' argument himself when pressed for 'physical'details.

extremely inconsistant.

(BTW, I wasn't laughing at you, I know how sensitive you can be to the LOL)

Well, you are pretty pious parousia, it's expected that you laugh at people.  So what, I am sensitive.  I cry when I see people suffering, I get upset when people laugh at me when I speak out for my beliefs.  I'm soooo terrible.

 

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by JesusServant
Yes.  Preterists have to believe this.  As if Jesus would have the nazis murder so many innocent Jews in His Kingdom.  BAH!

So, are you saying God was incapable of stopping the Nazis from murdering the Jews even if HE wanted to?

Last I checked, everything that happens on earth, only happens because God allows it to. If you have information to the contrary, I'd be glad to examine it.

Your theology seems to hold that murderers will not exist on the New Heavens and earth, however scripture confirms they in fact do, residing just outside the gates of the new Jerusalem. (Revelation 22:15)

Last I checked, in order to be a murderer, you have to actually murder.

 

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by JesusServant
Well, you are pretty pious parousia, it's expected that you laugh at people.  So what, I am sensitive.  I cry when I see people suffering, I get upset when people laugh at me when I speak out for my beliefs.  I'm soooo terrible.

 

Well, I can't really help it if, even after I make absolutely clear that I am not attacking you personally by the use of LOL, that you choose to take offence anyway. I can see you want to blame me, but I will not be held responsible for your personal choice.

It appears you are suggesting that I do not get upset when I see people suffering. That I never cry, that I don't have any empathy. What did I ever say to give you that impression?

Are you saying you never laugh?

Are you saying laughter is somehow evil, or to be avoided by the good Christian?

BTW, did you care to comment on the meat of my post?

You asked what my point was, and I attempted to clarify it for you. Did I?

BTW, Happy Birthday!