Weep Over Jerusalem?

[crimsonleaf]

Then how can you say good works are not essential to salvation? Even you say, if they are missing, they are not saved.

Good works are a sign of a saved soul, not a cause.

 

[jdbear]

griff said,
So why do you constantly pit the Bible against itself?

Example please.

 

[Hammster]

Then how can you say good works are not essential to salvation? Even you say, if they are missing, they are not saved.

Because they are the result of salvation. They don't contribute to it. Apparently you don't understand the tree/fruit analogy. The fruit on the tree is a result of a good tree. No fruit equals bad tree.

 

[guuila]

Example please.

This is what you do:

Debating Calvinism - The Sacred Sandwich

 

[guuila]

Because they are the result of salvation. They don't contribute to it. Apparently you don't understand the tree/fruit analogy. The fruit on the tree is a result of a good tree. No fruit equals bad tree.

Apparently some folks don't like to read what has been said over and over. Why are we still arguing about this? I haven't seen anyone once deny the necessity of good works, yet Arcoe insists that we do.

 

[Arcoe]

Good works are a sign of a saved soul, not a cause.

How can you separate salvation from good works? As you say, if no good works are in the life of a person, he isn't saved.

 

[guuila]

How can you separate salvation from good works? As you say, if no good works are in the life of a person, he isn't saved.

He didn't.

 

[Arcoe]

Because they are the result of salvation. They don't contribute to it. Apparently you don't understand the tree/fruit analogy. The fruit on the tree is a result of a good tree. No fruit equals bad tree.

You are attributing good works or fruit to salvation. That's all I've done. If no good works or fruit, no salvation. What is so hard about this?

 

[Arcoe]

Apparently some folks don't like to read what has been said over and over. Why are we still arguing about this? I haven't seen anyone once deny the necessity of good works, yet Arcoe insists that we do.

griff, even you say good works are a necessity of salvation. How do you separate the two? I will ask, can a person be saved without good works?

 

[Arcoe]

He didn't.

I will ask you again, can a person be saved without good works? If not, then you are going to have to admit, he can be saved with evil works.

 

[guuila]

griff, even you say good works are a necessity of salvation. How do you separate the two? I will ask, can a person be saved without good works?

Why would I separate them? Good works are a component of salvation. I've said this many times. It's like you're ignoring what we're telling you. "Salvation" is a multi-faceted package. It consists of election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc. Good works are a result of regeneration. If no good works exist, it's proof a person is not regenerate. Our justification is by faith alone, and the only kind of faith that results in justification is faith that comes from a regenerate heart. That's why it can be said that good works are the litmus test for true faith, because if there are no good works, a person has dead faith and is not regenerate.

Again, we are justified by faith and good works necessarily follow. A person cannot be saved without good works. Is that clear?

 

[guuila]

I will ask you again, can a person be saved without good works?

No.

If not, then you are going to have to admit, he can be saved with evil works.

That doesn't follow.

 

[Arcoe]

Why would I separate them? Good works are a component of salvation. I've said this many times. It's like you're ignoring what we're telling you. "Salvation" is a multi-faceted package. It consists of election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc. Good works are a result of regeneration. If no good works exist, it's proof a person is not regenerate. Our justification is by faith alone, and the only kind of faith that results in justification is faith that comes from a regenerate heart. That's why it can be said that good works are the litmus test for true faith, because if there are no good works, a person has dead faith and is not regenerate.

Again, we are justified by faith and good works necessarily follow. A person cannot be saved without good works. Is that clear?

That is very clear; you and I agree, a person cannot be saved without good works. As you say, it is part of the package.

 

[guuila]

That is very clear; you and I agree, a person cannot be saved without good works. As you say, it is part of the package.

Awesome.

 

[DArceri]

Why is it Calvinists continue to persist we do not have God working in and with us? I have never said anything I do, I do on my own. This is pretty much a Calvinist myth perpetuated to put synergism in a bad light.

. Well, I actually consider myself of the reformed group who does believe that God graced me with a saving faith to believe.... That being said, so, you will then agree, God is who brought you to faith and it is God who is producing the good works in you, it is not of yourself.

Not all branches in the vine produce fruit as Jesus declared in John 15. These are cut off and thrown into the fire. So how is it you believe all branches in the vine will produce fruit?

Correct. Only those branches that are of the flesh are cut off, right? He ends up pruning the vine to produce more fruit!!! (Jn 15:.2) It says already we are clean because of His word (Jn 15:3)

Here again, you make reference to man doing it all himself. Correct your view on this and this discussion will go a lot farther. Even if God 'moves' you to love, you must still actually love one another. You must act and actually do good works.

Hmmm...What do you mean, 'even if'? Do you not believe the Holy Spirit moves us? Or do you beleive we are saved BY good works, and not UNTO good works? There is a big difference being stated here.

Are not all roles for the purpose of salvation for the sinner? I don't think I've mentioned the OT law as having anything to do with sanctification or justification.

Well there are different uses of the law and that may also be where you collapse things. For the unsaved, the law condemns, for the believer, the law is our guideline to what pleases God. For those in Christ, the law only serves to convict, not condemn. (BTW, I didn't mention the OT law, you just did. But what I did hint at is to love God and neighbor is actually the law. For it is said to be the summation of the whole law, right?.)

I've mentioned a service on our part and forgiveness. Obedience and repentance are very much a part of the Gospel.

Yes, I was pretty clear to state that myself. But that being said, each has its own role in the salvation process. But it appears you can't discern what roles each play in our justification and in the sanctification process. But yes, faith, repentance, and obedience can only be motivated by the Gospel.

If you believe a person only needs to repent once, then yes, you would be correct in only one instance of justification. But we are admonished to repent even after conversion (see the churches in Revelation). If you consider repentance a work of righteousness, then Jesus consider it needful to the churches.

Although I agree with you that we are repenting daily since we sin daily, before we came to saving faith, the repentance for the foregivness of sins comes when God justifies us in a moment of time. It's a declaration. As stated in Jn 15, we are already clean. Since sanctification is a lifelong process where God is pruning us daily, how can it not produce a repentant heart if we are born of God? Thus, as you can see, if you collapse justification (a one time declaration) with the sanctification process (God santifying us), you will end up believing that your good works somehow contribute to you being justified.

Repentance, and turning to God, is for the remission (pardon, forgiveness, and payment) of our sins. This remission is the justification, or the declaration of not guilty for all who genuinely repent.

Yes.

This is where fruit comes into the picture also. John the Baptist said in Luke 3:8, "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance", and Paul said in Act 26:20, "...that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance".

I don't see how this refutes what I have been saying. Those that are born of God, bear fruit.

What would you consider fruits or deeds appropriate to repentance? And if you notice, it is the person himself who is active in performing deeds, or bearing fruit, and not acted upon passively.

Well, you can't recieve any of Christ's gifts without recieving Christ Himself. And if you are united to Christ, then you will naturally repent and produce the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

You are attributing good works or fruit to salvation. That's all I've done. If no good works or fruit, no salvation. What is so hard about this?

You said good works are essential to salvation. Essential to salvation is different than a result of salvation.

 

[Arcoe]

You said good works are essential to salvation. Essential to salvation is different than a result of salvation.

Do you, like griff, think they are a necesity to salvation? Do you also believe, as griff and I do, a person cannot be saved without good works?

 

[Hammster]

Do you, like griff, think they are a necesity to salvation? Do you also believe, as griff and I do, a person cannot be saved without good works?

Be saved as in I need work to achieve salvation? No.

Be saved as in a person who is saved will do good works? Yes.

 

[Arcoe]

. Well, I actually consider myself of the reformed group who does believe that God graced me with a saving faith to believe.... That being said, so, you will then agree, God is who brought you to faith and it is God who is producing the good works in you, it is not of yourself.

God has provided His word through which I am able to have faith. I believe it is God producing good works in me, but I also have my part in carrying out those good works. If I do not act upon and actually do the good works as of myself, they will not get done.

The fig tree Jesus cursed, was God not producing fruit in it? Do you not think God gave it everything it needed to produce fruit? If so, then why was it not producing fruit as expected? Could it possibly be the fault of the tree, or do you consign fault to God for it not producing fruit?

Correct. Only those branches that are of the flesh are cut off, right? He ends up pruning the vine to produce more fruit!!! (Jn 15:.2) It says already we are clean because of His word (Jn 15:3)

Do you consider the branches cut off as being saved? If not, how did a man living in the flesh ever get united to the vine? He prunes those who are already producing fruit, so they may bear more fruit.

Hmmm ...

What do you mean, 'even if'? Do you not believe the Holy Spirit moves us? Or do you beleive we are saved BY good works, and not UNTO good works? There is a big difference being stated here.

Okay, 'when' God moves you to love, you still must actually do it. How is that?

What difference is there? Do you believe a man who has no good works is saved? There is only one other option: evil works. Do you believe those who do evil works are saved? If not, then you must believe it is those who do good works who are saved. There is no middle ground; it's either one or the other.

Well there are different uses of the law and that may also be where you collapse things. For the unsaved, the law condemns, for the believer, the law is our guideline to what pleases God. For those in Christ, the law only serves to convict, not condemn.

(BTW,

I didn't mention the OT law, you just did. But what I did hint at is to love God and neighbor is actually the law. For it is said to be the summation of the whole law, right?.)

Very true. The whole law hangs on those two.

Yes, I was pretty clear to state that myself. But that being said, each has its own role in the salvation process. But it appears you can't discern what roles each play in our justification and in the sanctification process. But yes, faith, repentance, and obedience can only be motivated by the Gospel.

Why do you think I cannot discern that repentance plays its role in justification, and obedience plays its role in sanctification? It's as clear as day to me.

Although I agree with you that we are repenting daily since we sin daily, before we came to saving faith, the repentance for the foregivness of sins comes when God justifies us in a moment of time. It's a declaration. As stated in Jn 15, we are already clean. Since sanctification is a lifelong process where God is pruning us daily, how can it not produce a repentant heart if we are born of God? Thus, as you can see, if you collapse justification (a one time declaration) with the sanctification process (God santifying us), you will end up believing that your good works somehow contribute to you being justified.

Then why did Jesus tell the churches in Revelation to repent, if they were already clean and justified? I've already shown you justification comes from repentance. Why do you think it's a one-time procedure? Who told you this? A man may be clean, but he still needs to wash his feet, or he has no part with Jesus.

What contributes to my justification is genuine, heart-felt repentance. For it is by repentance, I am remitted of my sins. I am sure Jesus knew this when He told the churches to repent.

I don't see how this refutes what I have been saying. Those that are born of God, bear fruit.

So tell me how those branches which do not bear fruit became united with the vine. Did they somehow become united to the vine by themselves?

Well, you can't recieve any of Christ's gifts without recieving Christ Himself. And if you are united to Christ, then you will naturally repent and produce the fruit of the Spirit.

Those branches 'united' to the vine (or to Christ), who are cut off and thrown into the fire, did not 'naturally' bear fruit, so I will have to disagree with your statement. It is those who are ready, willing, and able, from the Spirit, who bear fruit.

 

[Arcoe]

Be saved as in I need work to achieve salvation? No.

Be saved as in a person who is saved will do good works? Yes.

Thanks, but that did not answer my question. All it takes is a yes or no. Here it is again.

'Do you believe a person can be saved without good works?'

My answer is no, what is yours?