Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Arcoe]

It's all groups of people. Jews and Gentiles, bond or free, rich or poor, male or female.

But not all individuals inclusively.

So, you also believe there are groups of people who are not in unbelief.

 

[cygnusx1]

If God didn't create hell for man then are you saying he created it for someone else and thought it was a pretty handy thing to have so decided at a later point to put man in too?

Because, Arcoe, THAT'S open theism.

Don't thank me; it was a pleasure. I felt that if you couldn't work it out for yourself then a helping hand might be welcome.

yeh its just a coincidence .... *tongue in cheek*

like arguing "show me a text that says God made the trees for Noahs ark , but i wont hold my breathe , see gotcha , now what else can i play "

 

[Arcoe]

yeh its just a coincidence .... *tongue in cheek*

like arguing "show me a text that says God made the trees for Noahs ark , but i wont hold my breathe , see gotcha , now what else can i play "

You can play 'Mary Had A Little Lamb' on your toes.

So, you are one of those who can't produce one single passage which states God created hell for mankind, but yet take jabs at me when I can show you for whom God created hell.

It must be fun making things up to confirm your own beliefs.

 

[Jack Terrence]

So, you are one of those who can't produce one single passage which states God created hell for mankind

Jesus said that it was created for the devil "and his messengers."

The word "angelos" primarily means "messenger" whether spirit beings or human beings.

 

[cygnusx1]

You can play 'Mary Had A Little Lamb' on your toes.

So, you are one of those who can't produce one single passage which states God created hell for mankind, but yet take jabs at me when I can show you for whom God created hell.

It must be fun making things up to confirm your own beliefs.

You still haven't produced the passage which proves God made trees for Noah's ark ..... You can draw conclusions as do I , but a passage indicating the trees were meant for the ark ? I'm waiting

 

[jdbear]

hamster said,
All people, or all groups of people? Context matters.

" I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid..." RO.11:11 All people.

"...to provoke them... (individually) "and might save some of them" (single).

What does the unbelief of Jews have to do with your belief Hammster?

 

[Hammster]

Then you must say it is only groups of people in unbelief.

Why must I say that. What's in the passage that would force me to say that?

Do you believe there are groups of people who are not in unbelief?

Yeah. They are called...wait for it....believers.

Then how do you say it is only groups of people upon whom He has mercy? Context, I tell you, context.

Because if He had mercy on everyone, then all would be saved.

 

[Hammster]

" I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid..." RO.11:11 All people.

"...to provoke them... (individually) "and might save some of them" (single).

What does the unbelief of Jews have to do with your belief Hammster?

So "they" in verse 11 refers to every single Jew?

 

[cygnusx1]

Tim Keller gave an interesting illustration once. It concerned slaves in America. During slavery, if a black man was in town, he had to do what whitey told him, even if they weren't his master.

After slavery was abolished, and a black man never had to listen to whitey again, there was still a tendency to do so because of past habits and conditioning.

I think there's a similarity there. Our old natures are still present. Our new natures are also present. I'm not denying the effects of sin I our members. I'm not saying that we can't be deceived, even in ourselves. But I know that there have been times when I've sinned, and done so with great desire. Every time? I can't say because I know there are sins I'm not aware of. But if my sinning was beyond my control, then there would be no need for the father to discipline us.

Sorry Hammster , I didn't see this post , must have turned a page .

How are we to conclude the condition of a Christian ?

Is a Christian a person with two minds , two wills and two persons ?

If willingness is always present if we sin then why do we chose to sin ? Habit may answer it in part , but it shouldn't be the habit of Christians to sin should it ?

Are sins committed unawares done willingly ? Yet we still acknowledge these as sins.

Maybe the answer is to see the act of sin as always against a Christians will , Romans 7 and Galatians

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would" Gal 5:17

These texts seem to say as much , but the act of neglecting to prevent sin is where we make the decision ..... After that its either uphill or downhill , the will is dictated or lead .


When you say you sinned with great desire , who hasn't , is the truth the believers will had been taken captive and the lust of the flesh has taken over , or does the believers will direct and decide the flesh ?

Have we two distinct wills ?

Or is our will one , Paul said he could do nothing against the truth , John said that which is born of God cannot sin , Paul said the flesh opposes the spirit stopping us from doing what we desire , ie, to please God .

Thanks for your time brother .

 

[Jack Terrence]

You still haven't produced the passage which proves God made trees for Noah's ark ..... You can draw conclusions as do I , but a passage indicating the trees were meant for the ark ? I'm waiting

You know I am on your side. But why didn't you just provide the scripture which Arcoe had asked for? It was easy enough.

 

[Jack Terrence]

But I know that there have been times when I've sinned, and done so with great desire.

That desire did not come from YOU. It came from the flesh inwhich you reside, though it may seem the desire came from you because of your union with the flesh.

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the kowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin."

I must therefore conclude that I sin from weakness or else I cannot be saved. Christ's intercession as our high priest speaks to our weaknesses.

 

[cygnusx1]

You know I am on your side. But why didn't you just provide the scripture which Arcoe had asked for? It was easy enough.

Because my point is that we often deduce things from scripture that are not seen by the proof texting method , how often does proof texting conclude a point in contention anyway ?..... Have a listen to Al Martin , I left a link , he mentions the Russelite being opposed by a Christian each proof texting and missing the wider more stable view , proof texting seems only to work where two are open not where two are opposed.

Besides let him go find the asked for scripture !

 

[Hammster]

Sorry Hammster , I didn't see this post , must have turned a page .

How are we to conclude the condition of a Christian ?

Is a Christian a person with two minds , two wills and two persons ?

If willingness is always present if we sin then why do we chose to sin ? Habit may answer it in part , but it shouldn't be the habit of Christians to sin should it ?

Are sins committed unawares done willingly ? Yet we still acknowledge these as sins.

Maybe the answer is to see the act of sin as always against a Christians will , Romans 7 and Galatians seem to say as much , but the act of neglecting to prevent sin is where we make the decision ..... After that its either uphill or downhill , the will is dictated or lead .


When you say you sinned with great desire , who hasn't , is the truth the believers will had been taken captive and the lust of the flesh has taken over , or does the believers will direct and decide the flesh ?

Have we two distinct wills ?

Or is our will one , Paul said he could do nothing against the truth , John said that which is born of God cannot sin , Paul said the flesh opposes the spirit stopping us from doing what we desire , ie, to please God .

Thanks for your time brother .

Could the issue come down to the difference between desire and will? Yes, we desire to be perfect and holy. But we really like to sin. We are still prideful folk that would rather, at times, look to satisfy our fleshly desires than to keep our eyes on our Father.

I think that it comes down to faith. Yes, we are believers. But the reality is that what we believe in is somewhat abstract. We don't actually see God even though we know He's real. We do, however, see those things around us that tempt us. So when Paul says "I but not I" he's saying "yeah, I sinned, wretched man that I am. But it's because of this sinful flesh I'm still stuck with. The sinful flesh is mine, and I make no excuse. I just offer it up as a reason for my sin. I, who will deliver me?"

Then Paul tells us that there's no condemnation for those in Christ. Even though we are stuck with this flesh, we aren't condemned because of it. And someday we will be free of it.

Just a thought. I know what you are getting at with your view. But I'm just not convinced that it's an argument that best describes the situation.

 

[Hammster]

That desire did not come from YOU. It came from the flesh inwhich you reside, though it may seem the desire came from you because of your union with the flesh.

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the kowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin."

I must therefore conclude that I sin from weakness or else I cannot be saved. Christ's intercession as our high priest speaks to our weaknesses.

I don't think yanking a verse out of context from Hebrews is the best way to prove your point.

 

[cygnusx1]

Could the issue come down to the difference between desire and will? Yes, we desire to be perfect and holy. But we really like to sin. We are still prideful folk that would rather, at times, look to satisfy our fleshly desires than to keep our eyes on our Father.

I think that it comes down to faith. Yes, we are believers. But the reality is that what we believe in is somewhat abstract. We don't actually see God even though we know He's real. We do, however, see those things around us that tempt us. So when Paul says "I but not I" he's saying "yeah, I sinned, wretched man that I am. But it's because of this sinful flesh I'm still stuck with. The sinful flesh is mine, and I make no excuse. I just offer it up as a reason for my sin. I, who will deliver me?"

Then Paul tells us that there's no condemnation for those in Christ. Even though we are stuck with this flesh, we aren't condemned because of it. And someday we will be free of it.

Just a thought. I know what you are getting at with your view. But I'm just not convinced that it's an argument that best describes the situation.

Fine so , using Paul's own words about his will specifically , could you describe your experience , the idea is to fit your exp to scripture not scripture to exp if that makes sense , thanks bro .

Eg , When I am willing I cannot do , and when I am unwilling I sin.... Something along those lines , because I have yet to see anyone , besides Paul , speak that way

Btw Paul doesn't simply say "I yet not I " , he says but sin which dwelt in me ..... So he isn't saying I did it but I didn't do it unwillingly .... He sticks the blame on sin rather than on his will !

 

[Hammster]

Fine so , using Paul's own words about his will specifically , could you describe your experience , the idea is to fit your exp to scripture not scripture to exp if that makes sense , thanks bro .

Eg , When I am willing I cannot do , and when I am unwilling I sin.... Something along those lines , because I have yet to see anyone , besides Paul , speak that way

Let me ask this instead, just to make sure we aren't talking past each other. When Paul talks of the flesh, is he talking about his old nature, or something else?

 

[cygnusx1]

Let me ask this instead, just to make sure we aren't talking past each other. When Paul talks of the flesh, is he talking about his old nature, or something else?

His old nature which resides in the body , even though elsewhere Paul says we , all believers have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires .... At least our identity in Christ teaches this even if the fact remains we need to demonstrate it , ie , by mortification.....

 

[Hammster]

His old nature which resides in the body , even though elsewhere Paul says we , all believers have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires .... At least our identity in Christ teaches this even if the fact remains we need to demonstrate it , ie , by mortification.....

Thanks. I'm only up right now because of a three month old. I'm going back to bed. I'll address this at a later time.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks. I'm only up right now because of a three month old. I'm going back to bed. I'll address this at a later time.

Sweet dreams bro !

Think on this though , if a Christian is divided he cannot stand.

 

[guuila]

The Bible says who He created hell for. I am sorry you want to add to what is revealed. This is called pseudo theism, or man-made theism.

Isn't that what you do with John 10? Jesus said he laid down his life for his sheep, but you add goats to it. I guess you're guilty of pseudo theism, or man-made theism.