Weep Over Jerusalem?

[jdbear]

Hammster said,
What threat? It looks like a promise to me.

Fine...Jesus promises not to do something He can't do anyway. How silly should we get with this?

Hammster said,
So everything David said in that Psalm, concerning his enemies, came to pass? Is that your argument?

My argument is that David knows God better than you do. As for when names are removed, the Bible doesn't say, therefore unknown.

 

[Hammster]

Fine...Jesus promises not to do something He can't do anyway. How silly should we get with this?

So it's your unsubstantiated assumption that Jesus is ALSO saying that those who don't overcome WILL be blotted out? Or is it something else? The verse NEVER says that names will be blotted out.

My argument is that David knows God better than you do. As for when names are removed, the Bible doesn't say, therefore unknown.

Or if they were ever in there in the first place.

 

[guuila]

No, because Bob was born elect as all humans are. and even though his ultimate end of casting salvation away is known by God, he still had the pick.

Where does the Bible teach all humans are born elect?

Fine. Bob couldn't have been saved and I'll have the stroke instead of you.

So you admit some folks are created for hell. Finally.

 

[guuila]

So it's your unsubstantiated assumption that Jesus is ALSO saying that those who don't overcome WILL be blotted out? Or is it something else? The verse NEVER says that names will be blotted out.

That would be called denying the antecedent. Seems our synergist brethren need to study that fallacy.

 

[AndOne]

Just a quick comment - I'm not so sure that the term "book of life" has spiritual ramifications as much as it does physical ones. When David asks God to have his enemies' name blotted from the Book Of Life he is asking Him to kill his enemies. Likewise when Jesus promises those who overcome to not strike their names from the Book Of Life it is another way of stating that they will not die physical death - or be to be raised from the dead.

I would say its a figure of speech for "living."

 

[Hammster]

Just a quick comment - I'm not so sure that the term "book of life" has spiritual ramifications as much as it does physical ones. When David asks God to have his enemies' name blotted from the Book Of Life he is asking Him to kill his enemies. Likewise when Jesus promises those who overcome to not strike their names from the Book Of Life it is another way of stating that they will not die physical death - or be to be raised from the dead.

I would say its a figure of speech for "living."

In the context of the Psalm, it would make sense.

 

[jdbear]

Hammster said,
So it's your unsubstantiated assumption that Jesus is ALSO saying that those who don't overcome WILL be blotted out?...

He's flat out saying it.

Hammster said,
...The verse NEVER says that names will be blotted out.

You have Him saying, "I will not blot your name out, because I can't." That He mentions it at all means He can.

Hammster said,
Or if they were ever in there in the first place.

If they weren't, His words would be meaningless.

 

[jdbear]

griff said,
Where does the Bible teach all humans are born elect?

We've been on this street before...the sinners who haven't sinned, right?

 

[jdbear]

Behe's Boy said,
Just a quick comment - I'm not so sure that the term "book of life" has spiritual ramifications as much as it does physical ones. When David asks God to have his enemies' name blotted from the Book Of Life he is asking Him to kill his enemies. Likewise when Jesus promises those who overcome to not strike their names from the Book Of Life it is another way of stating that they will not die physical death - or be to be raised from the dead.
I would say its a figure of speech for "living."

Re.20:15 & 22:19 refute the idea that Christ and David were simply referring to physical life. Regardless, the act of blotting is most certainly future, which means the idea that people are already damned or damned from birth isn't true.

 

[Hammster]

He's flat out saying it.
You have Him saying, "I will not blot your name out, because I can't." That He mentions it at all means He can.

Or...it is Jesus letting His people know that their salvation is secured.

If they weren't, His words would be meaningless.

No they aren't. But let's pretend that you're correct. Should we really use David as an example of how to pray? Remember, he knew God better than you. So should we ask God to damn our enemies to eternal torment? Is it really a good idea to ask God to send those who are against us to Hell?

 

[Hammster]

Re.20:15 & 22:19 refute the idea that Christ and David were simply referring to physical life. Regardless, the act of blotting is most certainly future, which means the idea that people are already damned or damned from birth isn't true.

Your Open Theism tendencies are slipping through the cracks.

 

[guuila]

We've been on this street before...the sinners who haven't sinned, right?

Huh? I don't think I've been on that road buddy.

 

[Jack Terrence]

What is the point of evangelism ?

Peter indicated that means by which the Elect come into salvation is also chosen. That means is preaching.

"God chose that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear."

The Gentiles who believed had been ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

 

[guuila]

What was the point of the fall then ?

Not sure how that's related...

What is the point of evangelism ?

To bring the elect to faith and repentance.

 

[Hammster]

Would not matter if they did not hear as they were already elect.

Also original sin is a pointless concept if it would have no effect as everyone were already saved or condemned.

Election isn't salvation. Learn it. Love it.

 

[Hammster]

So are the elect not saved ?

Elected to salvation.

 

[jdbear]

Hammster said,
Or...it is Jesus letting His people know that their salvation is secured.

It is Jesus letting His people know their salvation is secured if they truly believe. All of the Lords admonitions to the churches are linked to this truth:
"...repent...or else I will..." Re.2:5
"Because thou hast...I also will.." Re.3:10

Hammster said,
No they aren't. But let's pretend that you're correct. Should we really use David as an example of how to pray? Remember, he knew God better than you. So should we ask God to damn our enemies to eternal torment? Is it really a good idea to ask God to send those who are against us to Hell?

David wasn't asking God to send those who are against him or us to hell. The psalm is about those who despise Jesus, not His followers. Eternal torment is another matter we disagree on.

Hammster said,
Your Open Theism tendencies are slipping through the cracks.

Just don't add to or take from the text of Revelation, or you'll find out the hard way there are no cracks.

 

[Hammster]

And the non elect ?

They aren't (hence non-elect).

 

[jdbear]

griff said,
Huh? I don't think I've been on that road buddy.

Guess I have you mixed in with a former dead baby disagreement....apologies.

 

[cygnusx1]

You're right. Another poster explained away Jesus feelings by quoting from Gill and I assumed people who believe Gods desire is to destroy do so from Gills platform. Apologies.....

Apologies accepted , my view is the same as BOT , the Son of God reflects God entirely , the picture is one found even in the OT of a God with emotions , He maybe unchanging in essense and in Purpose but He created emotions and feels , empathises with us .
Christ weeping over Jerusalem is none other than God made manifest .

He was willing , but they were not ......