Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Arcoe]

Yes, it could. I'm glad you finally understand.
Some of His disciples, yes.
God would never command me to do something that is a sin.

Which discipeS in particular?

I agree God never commands you to sin, but isn't it the Reformed belief that God determines ALL things, good and bad? Did He determine you sin? Or is this not really a Reformed belief? Is God's determination different than His commands?

If God doesn't command you to sin, how is it you sin with a new heart? Is this not something you will and desire?

Despite our efforts to educate you, you are still ignorant of what we believe. This post is proof positive.

Educate me? You keep giving conflicting beliefs, how is this educating anyone? At least be consistent. I believe you are ignorant of what you believe yourself. Your beliefs are tossed with the wind, just as whatever direction the wind blows on a certain day, your beliefs go in different directions on different days.

Either you believe God determines people to do good or evil, or you don't. Which is it today? Did you sin today because it was predestined by God before you were born?

 

[Hammster]

Which discipeS in particular?

Well, Judas for one. Not sure about the others, but there was a crowd wanting Pilate to crucify Him. Odd are that some were His disciples at some point.

I agree God never commands you to sin, but isn't it the Reformed belief that God determines ALL things, good and bad? Did He determine you sin? Or is this not really a Reformed belief? Is God's determination different than His commands?

He didn't need to determine that I sin. I'm a sinner. But He can either stop me from committing a particular son, or allow it. He's sovereign that way. And if He allows it, it's for a purpose.

If God doesn't command you to sin, how is it you sin with a new heart? Is this not something you will and desire?

The same way you sin with a new heart, assuming that you believe that those who are born again have new hearts.

Educate me? You keep giving conflicting beliefs, how is this educating anyone? At least be consistent. I believe you are ignorant of what you believe yourself. Your beliefs are tossed with the wind, just as whatever direction the wind blows on a certain day, your beliefs go in different directions on different days.

It's not my beliefs. It's your understanding. It's your picking sentences or posts out if context and trying to exploit them. Somehow, you think this is proper debate.

Either you believe God determines people to do good or evil, or you don't. Which is it today? Did you sin today because it was predestined by God before you were born?

I sinned today because I'm a sinner. God allowed whatever sins He wanted me to commit because it serves a greater purpose.

In a similar way, God allowed Pilate and Herod to crucify Christ. He could have stopped it (according to Jesus), but the crucifixion served a greater purpose.

 

[Skala]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7717935-24/#post62676087

bump for arcoe.

 

[Arcoe]

Well, Judas for one. Not sure about the others, but there was a crowd wanting Pilate to crucify Him. Odd are that some were His disciples at some point.
He didn't need to determine that I sin. I'm a sinner. But He can either stop me from committing a particular son, or allow it. He's sovereign that way. And if He allows it, it's for a purpose.
The same way you sin with a new heart, assuming that you believe that those who are born again have new hearts.
It's not my beliefs. It's your understanding. It's your picking sentences or posts out if context and trying to exploit them. Somehow, you think this is proper debate.

I sinned today because I'm a sinner. God allowed whatever sins He wanted me to commit because it serves a greater purpose.

In a similar way, God allowed Pilate and Herod to crucify Christ. He could have stopped it (according to Jesus), but the crucifixion served a greater purpose.

Here we go again. First God predestines sin, then He determines sin, and now He allows it. Predestine and allow are not quite the same. You have 'watered' down your belief so it doesn't look like God predestines child abuse. Well, I would too if I believed something like that.

By the way, if God allows you to abuse children, what purpose do you think it would serve? Was God's purpose to punish these 'sinful' children? I find this logic quite disturbing.

 

[Arcoe]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7717935-24/#post62676087

bump for arcoe.

Bump back.

 

[Hammster]

Here we go again. First God predestines sin, then He determines sin, and now He allows it. Predestine and allow are not quite the same. You have 'watered' down your belief so it doesn't look like God predestines child abuse. Well, I would too if I believed something like that.

I got it. You've defined predestine to mean God forces someone to do something. Your usage has been rejected.

By the way, if God allows you to abuse children, what purpose do you think it would serve? I find this logic quite disturbing.

I have no idea. But I do know the purpose of an infinitely greater sin. But that's because God has revealed it to me.

 

[Arcoe]

I got it. You've defined predestine to mean God forces someone to do something. Your usage has been rejected.

I have no idea. But I do know the purpose of an infinitely greater sin. But that's because God has revealed it to me.

I don't think I said 'forced'. What do you define predestined to be? A choice for man to make, or a choice man cannot refuse? I think you mean a man is helpless if God predestines him to sin. Is this correct?

So, you would be helpless to stop the abuse if God predestined it, correct?

 

[cygnusx1]

Against the desire of God? This is totally against your Calvinist belief. How can sinful man have sovereignty over God's desire? Furthermore, you are telling me God is granting the desires of sinful man against His own desires.

You make the same false inference as the hyper Calvinist .

The Lord desires , even commands what men ought to do , the elders of Israel sinned against Gods revealed will , they obstructed the innocent from finding the truth revealed .

The Lord has a desire for what is right , is it right that men repent ? Yes ! And God desires men repent and trust Christ for salvation .

Not once have I said the desire of God to do what He will do can be obstructed , it can't . He is sovereign and does all He wishes .

What He wishes OTHERS to do is completely another matter .

I hope you make a note of that distinction , otherwise you may find the Hypers with their distortions reappearing at your side .

 

[Skala]

Bump back.

Arcoe, which of these do you believe;

1) evil has a purpose
2) evil has no purpose

Would greatly like a response from you.

 

[guuila]

I don't think I said 'forced'. What do you define predestined to be? A choice for man to make, or a choice man cannot refuse? I think you mean a man is helpless if God predestines him to sin. Is this correct?

So, you would be helpless to stop the abuse if God predestined it, correct?

If God predestined the greatest sin ever committed (The murder of Jesus) what's the problem with God predestining lesser sins like a child being raped? It seems you have no problem with the former and get all bent out of shape about the latter. Do you like kids more than you like Jesus?

 

[guuila]

Guess I'll repost this. Seems like it was overlooked.

I think it's sad and degrading to Christianity that we have those who believe if God predestines a person, yes, even a believer, to abuse children, they will gladly do it for God. If it doesn't pull your heartstrings, then something is definitely wrong.

You are so confused. Despite all of us telling you that you're confused and trying to correct you, you remain confident that we're all crazy and you're right.

Please, do us all a favor and explain Acts 4:28 to us.

1. Did God predestine Herod and Pilate to murder Jesus? Yes or no?
2. If yes, could they have done otherwise?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Griff, Skala, good luck.

In using the word "luck" I mean it as a colloquialism, not in any theological sense. I clarify this to pre-empt Arcoe's inevitable diversion.

Arcoe may well be thinking along the lines of another poster, who agrees that God knows all things before they happen yet thinks man still has "a chance" not to sin once God knows he's a sinner.

I know it doesn't make sense, but if you get a straightforward answer on either of your questions I'll eat my own head.

 

[guuila]

Griff, Skala, good luck.

In using the word "luck" I mean it as a colloquialism, not in any theological sense. I clarify this to pre-empt Arcoe's inevitable diversion.

Arcoe may well be thinking along the lines of another poster, who agrees that God knows all things before they happen yet thinks man still has "a chance" not to sin once God knows he's a sinner.

I know it doesn't make sense, but if you get a straightforward answer on either of your questions I'll eat my own head.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Skala]

I think I have shown that Arcoe's argumentation and belief on the point of God's having a purpose for evil is seriously flawed.

The proof of this is that he won't interact with my post.

He has argued that it's "wrong" for God to determine evil. This directly translates into the idea that God has no purpose for evil (for to determine evil is to purpose evil).

However, surely Arcoe would recommend people to turn to God for understanding and comfort if they were the victims of evil.

I showed in my post that this is inconsistent and betrays the very stance he has been taking in this thread all along.

Hence his lack of response or interaction at all.

 

[guuila]

I think I have shown that Arcoe's argumentation and belief on the point of God's having a purpose for evil is seriously flawed.

The proof of this is that he won't interact with my post.

He has argued that it's "wrong" for God to determine evil. This directly translates into the idea that God has no purpose for evil (for to determine evil is to purpose evil).

However, surely Arcoe would recommend people to turn to God for understanding and comfort if they were the victims of evil.

I showed in my post that this is inconsistent and betrays the very stance he has been taking in this thread all along.

Hence his lack of response or interaction at all.

 

[janxharris]

You have so missed the point. But I can't tell if it is deliberate just to be argumentative, or if you are just really clueless about reformed theology.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27, 28 NASB)

Were Herod and Pilate used, in accordance to God's will, to crucify Christ?

There is no way that Herod and Pilot did anything that they would not have done if God was not ensuring the outcome. In other words, they were chosen and in the right place at the right time because they would have done it anyway.

 

[guuila]

There is no way that Herod and Pilot did anything that they would not have done if God was not ensuring the outcome. In other words, they were chosen and in the right place at the right time because they would have done it anyway.

So God scanned the landscape of fallen humanity looking for some people who were so bad they would murder Jesus, and then chose and predestined them on that basis?

 

[Hammster]

So God scanned the landscape of fallen humanity looking for some people who were so bad they would murder Jesus, and then chose and predestined them on that basis?

Wouldn't that take the predestination out of predestination?

 

[guuila]

Wouldn't that take the predestination out of predestination?

That would be like googling Google.

 

[janxharris]

So God scanned the landscape of fallen humanity looking for some people who were so bad they would murder Jesus, and then chose and predestined them on that basis?

Your not suggesting that Pilot was forced by God's predestination to do something he would not have otherwise have done are you?