Weep Over Jerusalem?

[jdbear]

Hammster said,
No. And it's been demonstrated over and over on this thread.

What has been demonstrated is that Jesus, while speaking allegedly of the Pharisees, said they stoned and killed the prophets. Which prophets did the Pharisees do this to?

Hammster said,
Your argument has been proven false over and over.

Your position that Jesus wasn't addressing the entire city doesn't explain His repeated desire and neglect to gather the children of it. Just a simple straightforward question...why?

 

[cygnusx1]

What has been demonstrated is that Jesus, while speaking allegedly of the Pharisees, said they stoned and killed the prophets. Which prophets did the Pharisees do this to?

Your position that Jesus wasn't addressing the entire city doesn't explain His repeated desire and neglect to gather the children of it. Just a simple straightforward question...why?

Because the leaders obstructed the innocent , they made mockery of the Law by placing unnecessary conditions upon others , rules which they themselves were unwilling and unable to uphold , they kept the flock in chains .... Against the desire of God .

 

[Arcoe]

Because the leaders obstructed the innocent , they made mockery of the Law by placing unnecessary conditions upon others , rules which they themselves were unwilling and unable to uphold , they kept the flock in chains .... Against the desire of God .

Against the desire of God? This is totally against your Calvinist belief. How can sinful man have sovereignty over God's desire? Furthermore, you are telling me God is granting the desires of sinful man against His own desires.

 

[guuila]

Against the desire of God? This is totally against your Calvinist belief. How can sinful man have sovereignty over God's desire? Furthermore, you are telling me God is granting the desires of sinful man against His own desires.

God allows things to happen constantly against his prescriptive will. God tells us not to murder; yet we see in Acts 4:

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 ESV)

So God tells us not to murder, and then predestines that Herod and Pilate murder Jesus. Acts 2 says:

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Acts 2:23 ESV)

So in conclusion:

1. God tells us in his word not to murder.
2. God planned and predestined that Herod and Pilate would murder Jesus - doing the very thing God tells us not to do.

 

[Arcoe]

God allows things to happen constantly against his prescriptive will. God tells us not to murder; yet we see in Acts 4:

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 ESV)

So God tells us not to murder, and then predestines that Herod and Pilate murder Jesus. Acts 2 says:

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Acts 2:23 ESV)

So in conclusion:

1. God tells us in his word not to murder.
2. God planned and predestined that Herod and Pilate would murder Jesus - doing the very thing God tells us not to do.

This reminds me of telling children not to play in the street, but push into the street as cars are coming.

 

[guuila]

This reminds me of telling children not to play in the street, but push into the street as cars are coming.

If you want to stand in judgment of the Bible, you're free to do so. At least it's finally clear what your authority isn't.

 

[Skala]

Arcoe
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[Arcoe]

If you want to stand in judgment of the Bible, you're free to do so. At least it's finally clear what your authority isn't.

You mean a Calvinist is admitting a man is free to do things himself. How refreshing. Though you may speak against it with the lips, your heart genuinely believes man has free will. And you have the free will to disagree.

So, if God determined for you to commit an awful, disgusting sin against a fellow man, would you do it? Or do you think you have the choice to not commit this sin?

 

[Arcoe]

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Polly want a cracker?

 

[Hammster]

You mean a Calvinist is admitting a man is free to do things himself. How refreshing. Though you may speak against it with the lips, your heart genuinely believes man has free will. And you have the free will to disagree.

So, if God determined for you to commit an awful, disgusting sin against a fellow man, would you do it? Or do you think you have the choice to not commit this sin?

We have free will to act within our nature. And God has free will to allow us to sin to work out His plan.

That's what is demonstrated in Luke 4 and in Genesis 50. See also Isaiah 10.

 

[guuila]

You mean a Calvinist is admitting a man is free to do things himself. How refreshing. Though you may speak against it with the lips, your heart genuinely believes man has free will. And you have the free will to disagree.

We are free to follow the desires of our heart. I have always said that.

So, if God determined for you to commit an awful, disgusting sin against a fellow man, would you do it? Or do you think you have the choice to not commit this sin?

If God determined it, I would do it. God doesn't determine to do something only to have some other force thwart him. The fact that I still sin today is proof that God wills that I still sin in the sense of his secret will, while it's God's will that I not sin according to his prescriptive will written in his word. If God absolutely willed that I no longer sin, I would no longer sin. That will be the case in heaven.

 

[Arcoe]

We are free to follow the desires of our heart. I have always said that.

If God determined it, I would do it. God doesn't determine to do something only to have some other force thwart him. The fact that I still sin today is proof that God wills that I still sin. If God absolutely willed that I no longer sin, I would no longer sin.

Wow, you would actually disobey God's word to obey God. What a serious contradiction. If God willed you to blaspheme the Spirit, you would do it? I think these are some serious problems with Calvinism.

And I guess if God determined you to rape and abuse children, you would gladly do it for God. I think you need to step back and look at what you believe. This goes into the category of disgusting and totally of the flesh. This is very serious griff, and you need open your eyes to what you believe.

I'm not speaking as a synergist; I am speaking as one who cares about you.

 

[Hammster]

Wow, you would actually disobey God's word to obey God. What a serious contradiction. If God willed you to blaspheme the Spirit, you would do it? I think these are some serious problems with Calvinism.

And I guess if God determined you to rape and abuse children, you would gladly do it for God. I think you need to step back and look at what you believe. This goes into the category of disgusting and totally of the flesh. This is very serious griff, and you need open your eyes to what you believe.

I'm not speaking as a synergist; I am speaking as one who cares about you.

You have so missed the point. But I can't tell if it is deliberate just to be argumentative, or if you are just really clueless about reformed theology.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27, 28 NASB)

Were Herod and Pilate used, in accordance to God's will, to crucify Christ?

 

[Arcoe]

You have so missed the point. But I can't tell if it is deliberate just to be argumentative, or if you are just really clueless about reformed theology.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27, 28 NASB)

Were Herod and Pilate used, in accordance to God's will, to crucify Christ?

Could it be because of their unbelief and disobedience, they were predestined to do whatever out of their sinful hearts? Did His disciples, being of the people of Israel, do this to Jesus?

So, I will ask you Hamm - if God predestined for you to rape and abuse children, would you do it? Would you disobey God's word to fulfill His predestined purpose in you? Would you bring yourself so low to do whatever God predestined you to do, if it included atrocities against children? Or do you determine what God determines for you?

Like I told griff, you need to step back and look at the consequences of your beliefs. <staff edit>

 

[guuila]

Like I told griff, you need to step back and look at the consequences of your beliefs. <staff edit>

You are really confused. Your theology obviously has no concept of God's revealed vs. secret will.

 

[guuila]

So, I will ask you Hamm - if God predestined for you to rape and abuse children, would you do it?

God predestined Herod and Pilate to crucify the sinless son of God, which is an infinitely worse sin than a person raping a child. Your attempt to pull at the heartstrings isn't going to work.

If God predestines a person to do something, they will inevitably do it. Otherwise, God isn't sovereign.

 

[Hammster]

Could it be because of their unbelief and disobedience, they were predestined to do whatever out of their sinful hearts?

Yes, it could. I'm glad you finally understand.

Did His disciples, being of the people of Israel, do this to Jesus?

Some of His disciples, yes.

So, I will ask you Hamm - if God predestined for you to rape and abuse children, would you do it?Would you disobey God's word to fulfill His predestined purpose in you? Would you bring yourself so low to do whatever God predestined you to do, if it included atrocities against children? Or do you determine what God determines for you?

God would never command me to do something that is a sin.

Like I told griff, you need to step back and look at the consequences of your beliefs. <staff edit>

Despite our efforts to educate you, you are still ignorant of what we believe. This post is proof positive.

 

[Arcoe]

God predestined Herod and Pilate to crucify the sinless son of God, which is an infinitely worse sin than a person raping a child. Your attempt to pull at the heartstrings isn't going to work.

I think it's sad and degrading to Christianity that we have those who believe if God predestines a person, yes, even a believer, to abuse children, they will gladly do it for God. If it doesn't pull your heartstrings, then something is definitely wrong.

If God predestines a person to do something, they will inevitably do it. Otherwise, God isn't sovereign.

Nor is He faithful to His Word.

What is the most important to you - God's sovereignty or His word? You have both of them fighting against each other.

 

[guuila]

I think it's sad and degrading to Christianity that we have those who believe if God predestines a person, yes, even a believer, to abuse children, they will gladly do it for God. If it doesn't pull your heartstrings, then something is definitely wrong.

You are so confused. Despite all of us telling you that you're confused and trying to correct you, you remain confident that we're all crazy and you're right.

Please, do us all a favor and explain Acts 4:28 to us.

1. Did God predestine Herod and Pilate to murder Jesus? Yes or no?
2. If yes, could they have done otherwise?

 

[Skala]

I think it's sad and degrading to Christianity that we have those who believe if God predestines a person, yes, even a believer, to abuse children, they will gladly do it for God. If it doesn't pull your heartstrings, then something is definitely wrong.



Nor is He faithful to His Word.

What is the most important to you - God's sovereignty or His word? You have both of them fighting against each other.

Arcoe, a few observations from my end

For starters, The Bible is clear that God created everything for its purpose, even the wicked. Prov 16:4

It seems to me that we can derive an important, comforting truth from the fact that evil has a purpose in God's overall plan.

If evil has no purpose, that makes it arbitrary and meaningless. If evil has no purpose, why does God allow it? Or is God powerless to stop it? If evil has no purpose, but is arbitrary, and God has the power to stop it, yet doesn't, that means He himself is arbitrary. If he doesn't have the power to stop it, then God ceases to be God.

Therefore the only alternative is that evil has a purpose. Who's purpose? God's purpose. In God's infinite wisdom he determined that He would be best glorified by his creation if evil existed and had a purpose.

For example, even promises to believers are predicated on evil existing: "All things work together for the good of those who love God". Surely evil is part of those all things. Therefore, evil existing is important for the eventual betterment of believers.

If evil has no purpose, that means those horrible examples you keep using such as child abuse and rape are arbitrarily running rampant in the universe and either God 1) is powerless to stop them or 2) arbitrarily allows them, for no reason whatsoever. He has no purpose for them, but continues to allow them. What does that say bout him?

However, if evil things have a purpose, then we can trust that God is wise and knows what He is doing. His purpose, though hard, can be trusted, and we can find comfort in Him.

Imagine your wife got raped. Who would you turn to for comfort? If, in your worldview, that rape had no purpose, then why would you turn to God to seek understanding and comfort? For in such a view, God arbitrarily let it happen or was powerless to stop it, both disqualify him as a source of understanding and comfort.

However, I submit to you that we can turn to God precisely because His plan can be trusted and he has a reason for all things, and therefore we can come to him when we need comfort and understanding.

The rub is this: If you believe God has a purpose for evil, you can consistently turn to him in hard times.

If you don't, then you cannot consistently turn to him in hard times.

Fact: all Christians turn to God in hard times
Logical conclusion: deep down we know that God is soveriegn, even over the hard times. He is not arbitrary, but has a purpose, thus we can turn to him for understanding. Therefore, he is not powerless to stop it.

So Arcoe, which universe would you rather live in?

1) A universe where evil has no purpose, but is arbitrary which makes God arbitrary or powerless
2) a universe where evil has a purpose

Which is more comforting to you? To me, #1 is a horrifying thought.