Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Hammster]

Why would Jesus weep at all for any reason?

Because He was fully human and had emotions. Do you have another reason?

 

[janxharris]

Because He was fully human and had emotions. Do you have another reason?

Jesus wept because He knew that many had, were and would choose (because they had the free will to do so) to reject Him. Jesus took every opportunity to try and persuade the Jews that He was who He said He was so that they might be saved; His weeping shows how much He cared and would be borne out in His endeavours to save all - even to those that were not his sheep.

Without free will creation makes no sense. It permeates the entirety of Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus wept because He knew that many had, were and would choose (because they had the free will to do so) to reject Him. Jesus took every opportunity to try and persuade the Jews that He was who He said He was so that they might be saved; His weeping shows how much He cared and would be borne out in His endeavours to save all - even to those that were not his sheep.

Without free will creation makes no sense. It permeates the entirety of Scripture.

I don't know where you find that He tried to persuade the Jews that He was who He said He was. Or maybe we have different ideas of what "persuade" means.

 

[janxharris]

I don't know where you find that He tried to persuade the Jews that He was who He said He was. Or maybe we have different ideas of what "persuade" means.

Why isn't the following an example of persuasion/demonstration?

John 11
So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there. When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked. “Come and see, Lord,” they replied. Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

 

[Hammster]

Demonstrating, yes.

 

[janxharris]

Demonstrating, yes.

Why isn't it persuasion?

I guess, because you think all is set in stone, that Jesus isn't attempting to alter that which is already fixed?

 

[Hammster]

Why isn't it persuasion?

I guess, because you think all is set in stone, that Jesus isn't attempting to alter that which is already fixed?

Have I ever asked you a question and then answered it for you with an answer I know you'd disagree with?

First off, I don't think it's persuasion because I don't see Jesus trying to convince people to follow Him and submit to Him by what He does. At best, He told people to believe He's God by His miracles.

Second, how could Jesus alter something that is set in stone?

 

[guuila]

Jesus attempts, urges and makes a case for belief in Him to those that are not his sheep in verses 34-48 of that Chapter.

Right. The Gospel command to repent and believe goes out indiscriminately. That doesn't have anything to do with the scope of the atonement. Check out what happens just a few verses prior:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:25-30 ESV)

Amazing how consistent this is with John 6. The Father gives the elect (the sheep) to Jesus. The reason they don't believe is because they are not among His sheep. The Father didn't give them to Jesus.

 

[guuila]

I am perplexed by your answers crimsonleaf. I find it difficult to understand why you don't wish for an explanation for such a troubling doctrine

It's only troubling when the foundation of your theology demands that God extend mercy to sinners. You have a different starting point in your theology than everyone else in this discussion.

 

[janxharris]

Have I ever asked you a question and then answered it for you with an answer I know you'd disagree with?

Probably...not sure of your point.

First off, I don't think it's persuasion because I don't see Jesus trying to convince people to follow Him and submit to Him by what He does. At best, He told people to believe He's God by His miracles.

Second, how could Jesus alter something that is set in stone?

Would it surprise you to know that what you have said (right or wrong) sends my mind reeling?

Do you admit that Jesus' words seem like persuasion - they look, feel and sound like persuasion? That it would be a natural human reaction to assume that there is nothing beneath the surface of what Jesus says that contradicts what is actually being said?

Is it not the case that Calvinism must turn scripture on it's head to remain viable as a theology?

Can you at least see the difficulties involved?

 

[guuila]

Jesus wept because He knew that many had, were and would choose (because they had the free will to do so) to reject Him.

After all this time you still think Calvinists don't believe in free will. Amazing.

Without free will creation makes no sense. It permeates the entirety of Scripture.

 

[guuila]

I guess, because you think all is set in stone, that Jesus isn't attempting to alter that which is already fixed?

Are you suggesting Jesus is trying to make the non-elect become elect? Again, are you an Open Theist? Open Theism permeates your arguments.

 

[guuila]

Janx, I'll address your free will straw man AGAIN. You seem to keep ignoring it:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7717935-33/#post62689777

Now, will you read that and understand it and put away your free will straw man once and for all? Please?

 

[guuila]

Janx, you keep ignoring this. I'm still waiting for a response:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7717935-35/#post62692729

 

[Hammster]

Probably...not sure of your point.

It's a bit rude. You ask a question and then presume to know the answer.

Would it surprise you to know that what you have said (right or wrong) sends my mind reeling?

No, not after all of this time.

Do you admit that Jesus' words seem like persuasion - they look, feel and sound like persuasion?

What exactly is He persuading them to do/believe?

That it would be a natural human reaction to assume that there is nothing beneath the surface of what Jesus says that contradicts what is actually being said?

Is that a question or a statement?

Is it not the case that Calvinism must turn scripture on it's head to remain viable as a theology?

No.

Can you at least see the difficulties involved?

Involved in what?

 

[janxharris]

Right. The Gospel command to repent and believe goes out indiscriminately. That doesn't have anything to do with the scope of the atonement. Check out what happens just a few verses prior:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:25-30 ESV)

Amazing how consistent this is with John 6. The Father gives the elect (the sheep) to Jesus. The reason they don't believe is because they are not among His sheep. The Father didn't give them to Jesus.

Those that are not His sheep can become His sheep as verses 37 and 38 show. Nothing you have said alters this truth. They become sheep by putting their faith in God whilst being drawn

The inexorable assertion that some are withheld a chance at salvation undoubtedly damages the Gospel and those that might be seeking God.

 

[Hammster]

Those that are not His sheep can become His sheep as verses 37 and 38 show. Nothing you have said alters this truth. They become sheep by putting their faith in God whilst being drawn

The inexorable assertion that some are withheld a chance at salvation undoubtedly damages the Gospel and those that might be seeking God.

Nobody that hears the gospel is withheld an opportunity to believe.

 

[janxharris]

It's only troubling when the foundation of your theology demands that God extend mercy to sinners. You have a different starting point in your theology than everyone else in this discussion.

Everyone else? That is not true.

I have never demanded that God extend mercy to his creation. However, to do so with partiality and without good reason for such is without doubt immoral.

Thankfully, God didn't do so - for he is the propitiation for our sins, and not just ours but the whole world.

 

[guuila]

Those that are not His sheep can become His sheep as verses 37 and 38 show. Nothing you have said alters this truth. They become sheep by putting their faith in God whilst being drawn

Yep. We're commanded to repent and believe. Unbelievers become believers. But goats don't become sheep. You're confusing justification with election. And still, you're trying to tell us Jesus died for the goats when he explicitly says that he died for the sheep.

The inexorable assertion that some are withheld a chance at salvation undoubtedly damages the Gospel and those that might be seeking God.

Um ok. Fortunately we don't have to submit to your faulty conclusions. No one seeks after God. - Rom 3:11

 

[janxharris]

Are you suggesting Jesus is trying to make the non-elect become elect? Again, are you an Open Theist? Open Theism permeates your arguments.

'Elect' is not mentioned in the scriptures I have been discussing.