We send ourselves to hell?

[EnemyOfReason]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

 

[ebia]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

You seem to assume that the whole thing is arbitrary; an arbitrary punishment against arbitrary rules.

That's not the authentic Christian understanding. The historic Christian understanding is more like:
Through our choices we and all creation are sick
God is acting to heal that.
Those who decline to be healed cannot be part of that healed world.
Therefore if any decline to be healed they ultimately exclude themselves. "Hell" is just a word for whatever that exclusion looks like.

I recommend reading The Great Divorce (CS Lewis)

 

[juvenissun]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

God says: believe or you go to hell.
John says: I do not believe.
So, John goes to hell.

What is wrong with that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

Entirely depends on what one thinks "Hell" is.

The idea that we choose Hell rather simply means that if you or I were confronted with the full, entire reality of Heaven and Hell as choices, you and I would choose Hell over Heaven.

That seems weird if we think of Heaven and Hell using populist imagery of a fiery chasm or a land of fluffy golden clouds. But let's frame it another way:

Set before you are two choices:

1) A world where you can have everything you've ever wanted and could ever possibly want. A world where you don't have to be around the people you don't like, a world where you don't have to deal with your enemies, or with those who rub you the wrong way.

2) A world where you will live in joyful service to everyone else, where you will serve perhaps even those who despised you in this life. Where victims and victimizers are reconciled and dwell together in mutual joy and love with one another.

That changes the dynamic a bit. Hell is, first and foremost, estrangement from Christ. In Christ there is service, to seek and love others even at one's own expense. Heaven isn't where I can have all that I have ever desired, but where my desires are transfigured to conform to the will and love of God--that love that He has for all creatures, including those who despise Him.

Hell is the fruitful manifestation of life lived incurvatus in se, curved inward for ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

Hello. Its really quite simplistic ; but first ill address a,b,and c. first then wrap it up with a summary :

A. God created Hell for the specific purpose of it being the final residence for Satan at the end of time . It will be a prison from which he cannot escape to harm people any longer. What Hell represents is : Total isolation and never ending regret for not desiring the presence of God . This is what Satan desires as well as most people down thruout the centuries .

B. True, God knows everything from start to finish, however in his love he grants complete freewill choice just as your Parents do when it comes to you returning a piece of the love they have lavished on you. They dont demand it, they dont coerce it out of you...instead they patiently wait for it to be returned FREELY.

C. God GRANTS the person on Earth what he/she always desired from the recesses of their heart and soul : Either greatER distance from God or greatER closeness and community with God . God extends the invitation but its up to people to accept it or reject it.

Summary : Every single person whos ever lived KNOWS internally that a personal intelligent display of a creation requires the same coming from the initial Source . But many choose to excersise their pride and arrogance by pretending that such personal things can and do come from raw materials and raw chemicals ... much like the Pet Rock phenominon of the early 1980's if you were around back then. People make up excuses for not wanting to admit their is a personal Creator because : 1. They dont want God to be in authority over them 2. They dont want to give up what they see as freedom to live as they like 3. They dont want anyone larger or more important than themselves to have reigns . 4. They want to be their own 'god' . All of this looks very attractive to the person who wants to be 'an Atheist' .. and God is very patient with such people always hoping that they will excersise their freewill to stop the charade. If they dont, then once eternity starts THIS becomes the final equation to be reckoned with :

No desire for God on earth = No God in eternity .
Know God in this life personally and lovingly on earth = Know God fully and experientially in eternity.

We choose, God grants. Perfect fairness . If God and his appointed way to be forgiven of all sins is not desired, then all bets are off when eternity starts for the Person.

Please, dont be counted among those whos pride kept them in their own little 'godhood' ; instead, choose the Creator who is your very Maker . He is personal, knowable, and will abide in your Soul if you are willing to take the first crucial steps found in Christ on the Cross for your benefit. Regards.

 

[Chrisv]

I must admit that I have struggled with the concept of Hell a lot. No matter how I look at it, I cannot reconcile a loving God with a place of eternal pain and suffering where a person is “punished” for not choosing to follow God.

Most people say God created hell as a place for Satan and his followers. Bottom line is that we do not know that. There is no evidence in scripture stating that God created hell for that purpose. Scripture only says that hell is and will be used to house Satan and his followers.

Here is my take on hell for what it is worth:
I believe that God will never force Himself on anyone. Free will is a big thing for Him and we are ultimately judged based on our actions.

When you die, your ultimate destination is dependent on whether you decided to follow God or not. If you decided to believe in Jesus, you will go to Heaven to be with Him as that is where He is. If you did not decide to believe in Him you will go to the place where God is NOT….that is hell.

I believe God removed His presence from a specific area so that people who do not believe in Him can have their way and be in a place where He is not. The problem is that everything that is good comes from Him, so if He is not there, there is no good either. Therefore, hell is a place of misery and suffering.

 

[thesunisout]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

God gives revelation of Himself to all people: (Romans 1:18)
All revelation leads to Jesus Christ: (John 14:6)
People reject Jesus Christ because of sin (John 3:19)
Without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, your name will not be written in the book of life. All who do not have their name written in the book of life will spend eternity in hell: (Revelation 20:15)

 

[bling]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

You are making the assumption that God is restricted by time. If the God of the future is the same as the God of the past then the God of the past knows what has happened in “our” future, but God is not limited to one time.

The “rules” for hell is: “those that have continued to refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting God’s Love (which God can know), will not be forced to go to heaven”, since heaven is a place of Godly type Love and these individuals like only carnal type love.

God created hell along with everything else to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

You are making the assumption that God is restricted by time. If the God of the future is the same as the God of the past then the God of the past knows what has happened in “our” future, but God is not limited to one time.

The “rules” for hell is: “those that have continued to refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting God’s Love (which God can know), will not be forced to go to heaven”, since heaven is a place of Godly type Love and these individuals like only carnal type love.

God created hell along with everything else to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

You just said god is not omniscient nor am I restricting him to time. Time is also linear and our actions no matter how free they may be are all decided upon the millions of factors based upon our thinking and circumstances

 

[bling]

You just said god is not omniscient nor am I restricting him to time. Time is also linear and our actions no matter how free they may be are all decided upon the millions of factors based upon our thinking and circumstances

You may want to study Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Einstein may not be right, but for the last 100 years people have tried and failed to disprove him and all the experiments seem to support the idea.

God can easily know all free will choices from the beginning of our time to the end of our time by the God of the future sending all that information “back”(this “back” is in our time frame) to God at the beginning of our time (this God is the same God of the future).

What do you think I am suggesting God does not know?

Time is “linear” from our perspective, but not in the “Time/Space Continuum”.

Yes, most decisions are the result of our genes and our environment, but that is not significant in determining our outcome as far as salvation. God provides us with this Godly ability to make the one free will choice that counts and that is: “to humbly accept or reject God’s Love (in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness)”.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

You may want to study Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Einstein may not be right, but for the last 100 years people have tried and failed to disprove him and all the experiments seem to support the idea.

God can easily know all free will choices from the beginning of our time to the end of our time by the God of the future sending all that information “back”(this “back” is in our time frame) to God at the beginning of our time (this God is the same God of the future).

What do you think I am suggesting God does not know?

Time is “linear” from our perspective, but not in the “Time/Space Continuum”.

Yes, most decisions are the result of our genes and our environment, but that is not significant in determining our outcome as far as salvation. God provides us with this Godly ability to make the one free will choice that counts and that is: “to humbly accept or reject God’s Love (in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness)”.

Einstein's theory plays no part in this issue.

Also we do not have choices and this has already been disproved. The choices we make correlate to neurological factors, capability of thought processing and our brains.
None of these are forms of free will. You only say there is free will because you believe in the soul but there is no soul or spirit outside of material existence.

If there was then please tell me why a person with a mental disorder behaves the way he does. Is his "soul" mentally ill as well?

None of the inert biological factors nor exterior ones come under the classification of free will. To debate this is literally ignorant and impossible as it would be equivalent to debating whether your hand is attached to your forearm.

 

[bling]

Einstein's theory plays no part in this issue.

You’re saying God and everything else are moving along some singular time line, when it appears to be a continuum of space and time.

Also we do not have choices and this has already been disproved. The choices we make correlate to neurological factors, capability of thought processing and our brains.

That if you “assume” everything is limited to the natural world without God’s influence. Free will is a gift from God to each individual, so this cannot be disproved or proved since it is outside of our universe.

None of these are forms of free will. You only say there is free will because you believe in the soul but there is no soul or spirit outside of material existence.

How could you even prove such a thing?

If there was then please tell me why a person with a mental disorder behaves the way he does. Is his "soul" mentally ill as well?

Not everyone is created the same and some will never become mature adults (able to make free will moral choices. These people are created as opportunities for others to serve (we might be able to continue to serve these people in the next life will in heaven for eternity, since our joy comes from serving others).

None of the inert biological factors nor exterior ones come under the classification of free will. To debate this is literally ignorant and impossible as it would be equivalent to debating whether your hand is attached to your forearm.

Science does not address at all the God factor or God’s involvement since it only deals with what is natural.

 

[1Feather]

My reading of the scripture informs that Hell was created for Satan and his angels.
Is this wrong?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

You’re saying God and everything else are moving along some singular time line, when it appears to be a continuum of space and time.


That if you “assume” everything is limited to the natural world without God’s influence. Free will is a gift from God to each individual, so this cannot be disproved or proved since it is outside of our universe.

How could you even prove such a thing?

You are making numerous contradictions to yourself.

I never claimed that the future is linear, any multiplicity of choices we can make are void of free will and thus our actions are linear and god being omniscient should know these actions.
You keep using the concept of the soul as if it is a fact yet it is not. Some believe in it and some do not but it plays no relevance in thinking, that much is certain.

I do not assume everything is limited to the natural world either. I know it is as do many others. Everything we know of is natural in existence. Our choices can be evaluated by natural facts and no unnatural factor has been found. Name an emotion mental quality that can only be explained with the existence of the soul..

Not everyone is created the same and some will never become mature adults (able to make free will moral choices. These people are created as opportunities for others to serve (we might be able to continue to serve these people in the next life will in heaven for eternity, since our joy comes from serving others).

This is where you become outright weird. If the individuals you are referring to are limited to natural existence then you have just stated they have no soul. By stating that God has given them to us as opportunities for us then you are again denying God's omniscience.

The way in which you say "serve others" also implies they are a test of some kind which again denies your god's omniscience.

Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

Science does not address at all the God factor or God’s involvement since it only deals with what is natural.

If it doe snot adress God's involvement then why believe in Jesus?

In the Bible god clearly intervenes in mankind's affairs and you claim this occurs even till today(I assume). None of these claims are capable of being tested despite them affecting natural existence. This is entirely absurd

 

[football5680]

I have heard the claim that the non-believer sends himself to hell. This is utterly illogical and I have not been able to find a Christian who can explain this properly.

Taking into fact that...

A) God created hell along with everything that exist.
B) God is aware of the future as he is the beginning and the end and aware of the events and forth-bringer of prophecy.
C) God set the rules for the admission into hell or heaven and is the withholder of the beings being within these domains.

With these basic facts set forth I do not understand how it can be blamed by the non-believer for placing his/herself in hell when they did not wish it as they cannot desire something they do not believe exist

A. Hell didn't exist at the beginning of time. Satan and his angels no longer wanted to be with God so hell was created for them and anybody who makes the same choice to reject God will be given exactly what they want.

B. We make the choices, we are the ones to blame.

C. The rules are simple. If you want to be with God you will live by his rules, if you don't then you have chosen hell.

The evidence of God is all around us so there is no excuse. If they want to delude themselves and give themselves an excuse to disbelieve then that is their problem. It takes far more faith to reject God than to simply accept him. You better be correct if you want to deny him.

 

[joeboonda]

God gives revelation of Himself to all people: (Romans 1:18)
All revelation leads to Jesus Christ: (John 14:6)
People reject Jesus Christ because of sin (John 3:19)
Without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, your name will not be written in the book of life. All who do not have their name written in the book of life will spend eternity in hell: (Revelation 20:15)

Bingo! God placed within all of us, whether we admit it or not, the knowledge of God and the knowledge that we have all sinned. Our conscience tells us when we sin. The penalty for sin is death, that is a spiritual law. Now, Christ, who was sinless was able to pay this penalty in our place. The penalty is death, so he died. Now we do not have to pay the penalty if we don't want to. We simply trust Christ to have paid the penalty. Its like if you must pay a fine and someone pays it for you, you don't have to pay it, its already been paid in full. One may reject the free gift and go pay the penalty themselves forever in Hell. That is their choice, so they chose Hell.

 

[GrayAngel]

This is one of the many cute sayings that are prevalent among Christians. And like most of those sayings, it's wrong. Nobody chooses to go to Hell. Scripture tells of being being hurled into it, forcibly removed. People do not like it there, and would love to leave, but they cannot.

God created Hell as a place for people to face their mistakes and be given punishment befitting their crimes. Scripture seems to suggest in more than one place that Hell is worse for some than for others. For example, people who know the truth are held more accountable to it than people who do not.

To claim that we send ourselves to Hell assumes that Heaven is the default afterlife for people who die, and that going to Hell is a choice to pass up the Heaven that is ours by birth. On the contrary, Hell is the default afterlife for us. Heaven is available to us only because of Jesus' sacrifice, which allows the Father to overlook the sins which we would rightfully be punished for and to see only the good in us.

John 1:12-13 : Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

A. Hell didn't exist at the beginning of time. Satan and his angels no longer wanted to be with God so hell was created for them and anybody who makes the same choice to reject God will be given exactly what they want.

B. We make the choices, we are the ones to blame.

C. The rules are simple. If you want to be with God you will live by his rules, if you don't then you have chosen hell.

The evidence of God is all around us so there is no excuse. If they want to delude themselves and give themselves an excuse to disbelieve then that is their problem. It takes far more faith to reject God than to simply accept him. You better be correct if you want to deny him.

The issue is that this deity has done a poor job of revealing himself and is exceedingly unnatural in his anti-human demands.

The evidence to support the Christian god are nil so one cannot assume Jehovah has made it fair and reasonably clear of his existence but on the contrary.
The Bible is inaccurate and highly unpreserved and this can be found in the many manuscripts to compile it. This is a well known fact. Additions have been made into it.

Words associated with Jesus have been added in fragments from 200AD and a bit onward. Claims about the genealogy of Jesus have been made that hold to no reason giving that there is no possibility for the progenies of Adam to end the existence of earth at 6,000 to 10,000. It just does not occur in natural existence.

You deny evidence and reasoning yourself yet demand a book which has been refuted beyond belief to hold up to reasoning? What is unseen is unreasonable.

It is already known that Evolutionary Theory is fact yet the Bible denies it. Denying basic science sounds pretty reasonable if you are ignorant.

DNA testing along with the confirmation of retroviruses and basic biological principles have already debunked the entire boo of Genesis as a whole.

 

[joeboonda]

That post was just so wrong.

 

[football5680]

The issue is that this deity has done a poor job of revealing himself and is exceedingly unnatural in his anti-human demands.

The evidence to support the Christian god are nil so one cannot assume Jehovah has made it fair and reasonably clear of his existence but on the contrary.
The Bible is inaccurate and highly unpreserved and this can be found in the many manuscripts to compile it. This is a well known fact. Additions have been made into it.

Words associated with Jesus have been added in fragments from 200AD and a bit onward. Claims about the genealogy of Jesus have been made that hold to no reason giving that there is no possibility for the progenies of Adam to end the existence of earth at 6,000 to 10,000. It just does not occur in natural existence.

You deny evidence and reasoning yourself yet demand a book which has been refuted beyond belief to hold up to reasoning? What is unseen is unreasonable.

It is already known that Evolutionary Theory is fact yet the Bible denies it. Denying basic science sounds pretty reasonable if you are ignorant.

DNA testing along with the confirmation of retroviruses and basic biological principles have already debunked the entire boo of Genesis as a whole.

Well it seems like you are pretty confident so why worry? If you don't believe in God then you are attacking an imaginary figure. Satan is your father and you act just like him. You are mad at God so you take it out on his true children.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. (Psalm 14:1)

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

If you want to commit a logical fallacy and deny God then go ahead. Your beliefs require far more faith.