Wow, just wow. You refuse to see that Abraham's faith INCLUDED obedience?
Never once did I say that. I am, rather taking the position opposite yours that works or even obedience plays no part or is even a condition in our salvation. As you said here:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" -Heb. 5:9
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thess. 1:8
In the first place, name one person who has rendered perfect obedience that God/Jesus requires.
I can show from scriptures that your proof text (Heb. 5:9) disqualifies at least two "apostles".
Regarding Hebrews 5:9, we read:
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Christ's Purity—He Learned Obedience
But there is one last foundation for our eternal salvation. Christ became the source of eternal salvation, not only because of his dignity and eternity, but also because of his purity. And not just the purity that he brought to his ministry as the Son of God, but purity that he had to forge in the furnace of suffering.
If you ask, Did his divine dignity and his priestly eternity give him automatic purity? the answer is No. It was not automatic. Verse 8 says, "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." This does not mean he moved from being disobedient to being obedient. It means he moved from being untested to being tested and proven. He moved from obeying without any suffering to obeying through unspeakable suffering. It means that the gold of his natural purity was put in the crucible and melted down with white-hot pain, so that he could learn from experience what suffering is and prove that his purity would persevere.
And did this come automatically? No. Verse 7 says that it was prayed for and begged for and cried out for and wept for with tears. This was no fake test of Christ's purity. Everything in the universe hung on this test.
Was it brief? Some take verse 7 to refer only to the battle in Gethsemane when he sweat drops of blood and pleaded with God. I don't think so. Notice the word "days" in verse 7—"In the days of His flesh." Not just a night or a day, but during all the "days of his humanity" he was wrestling and praying and begging and crying out and weeping. It was not brief. It was a lifetime of warfare against sin.
And when verse 7b says that he was praying and crying "to the One able to save Him from death," does that mean that he was mainly praying for deliverance from physical death? Was that the main aim of his praying in the days of his flesh? I don't think so, because verse 7 says "he was heard." I think that means God gave him what he asked for, and verse 8 describes the effect of that answered prayer: he learned obedience. Jesus was praying for obedience—for persevering purity.
In other words, Jesus knew that there was a death worse than death. Much worse. Physical death is bad enough and he desired that there be another way to do the Father's will than to die on the cross. But far more horrible than dying on the cross was the impurity of unbelief and disobedience. That was the great and horrible threat. So he prayed all his life against that, and he was heard by his Father and, instead of caving in to sin, he learned obedience from what he suffered.
He became a source of eternal salvation because of his dignity as the Son of God and his eternity in the priesthood of Melchizedek and his purity in the crucible of incredible suffering.
Do You Have This Eternal Salvation?
Which leaves one last question: Do you have this eternal salvation? Not everyone does. Verse 9 tells us who does: "And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation." Those who are obeying Christ have the eternal salvation that he obtained for us. Are you obeying Christ? Or are you living in disobedience to his will?
One thing is very clear from Hebrews: the will of Christ that has to be obeyed is first and foremost the command to trust him, to hold fast to our hope (3:6), to guard against a heart of unbelief (3:12), to hold fast to our confession (4:14), and to draw near to Christ for help (4:16). In other words, the first and main act of obedience is to believe in the promises of God (3:18–19) and to hope in him. All other obedience, according to Hebrews, is the fruit of this first and root act of obedience (10:34; 11:8, 24–26; 13:5–6, 13–14). So daily acts of practical obedience are the evidence of this first obedient act of saving faith.
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In the second place, I love it when people use eschatological passages to refer to present day Christians.
In the third place, I am also forced to agree with Martin Luther when he wrote:
"In the first place it
is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works."
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Have you ever studies what it means to "righteous" and "justified"?
"This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.
Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).
A fact that most seen to overlook at are the differences between what Paul is quoting from, and what James quotes, rather, bases their statements on. Paul uses Gen. 15:6 as his basis in
Romans 4, and James uses Gen. 22:1-19 for his basis. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in
Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.
Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?
Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen. Without the essential element of “faith worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:6), no matter how much reading or studying, no amount of head knowledge, no amount of preaching and teaching one can do, they are no more than “sounding brass and tinkling symbol.” Without love, those professors will be the ones pleading their works but will be told: “Depart, I never knew ye.”
So…we conclude that “works,” as far as justification is concerned, plays no part. We are indeed justified by faith alone, in Christ alone.
Martin Luther wrote in his preface to James and Jude: “James does nothing more than drive a man to the Law and its works.” And this is apparent in some faiths teachings. However, Luther also admits that James wanted to guard against those who relied on faith exclusively but wasn’t quite up to the task.
During the first century, it is commonly held that James was the bishop of the church in Jerusalem. And Paul was a missionary. History dictates that during the early church, two viewpoints developed early on. Paul is well known for his battles with “legalists.” They were the type who said faith in God was correct, but what was also required was a submission to the “Law.”
Luther also was quick to point out that James called the “Law” a “perfect law of liberty.” (cf. Jas. 1:25) Paul viewed it as a Law that brings slavery, (Gal. 5:3) wrath, (Rom. 4:15) sin, (Rom. 7:7) and death (Rom. 7:10).
When men are turned away from their own self-efforts, the next step is to run in the complete opposite direction. If they cannot trust in their own self-righteousness, if they cannot be justified by their own works, then it is just a minor shift to reject works of any kind, and there is no such thing as ungodly living or ungodly practice. This is the door which leads down the path to antinomianism. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. (
Jude 1:4) And this is very apparent in what it was spreading during the early church.
It has been argued that Paul and James are not contradictory, but rather, complimentary. This can be seen by the statements by these men in that Paul says you are justified by faith, verse James’ teaching that you are justified by works and not by faith alone. Arthur W. Pink wrote:
“Unless the subject and scope of James’ Epistle be clearly seen, the apprehension of many of its statements can only issue in God-dishonoring, grace-repudiating, soul-destroying error. To this portion of the Word of God, more than any other, have legalists appealed in their opposition to the grand truth of justification by grace, through faith, without works. To the declarations of this Epistle have they turned to find support for their Christ-insulting, man-exalting, Gospel-repudiating error of justification by human works. Merit-mongers of all descriptions cite
James 2 for the purpose of setting aside all that is taught elsewhere in Scripture on the subject of justification. Romanists, and their half-brothers the Arminians, quote "Ye see then how that
by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (v. 24), and suppose that ends all argument.”
Three times in
Romans 4, the preposition “eiV” (ice) is used. In verse 5: “his faith is counted “eiV = for” righteousness.” In verse 9: “faith was reckoned to him “eiV = for” righteousness. In verse 22: “it was imputed to him “eiV = for” righteousness.” In each of these verses, the preposition “eiV” never means “in the stead of”, but signifies “towards, in order to, with a view to”, and in rare circumstances, it can mean “because of.” It has a uniform usage as “into” or “unto.” The clearest meaning in this passage of scriptures is found in verse 10: “with the heart man believeth unto “eiV” righteousness”: that the believing heart reaches out towards and lays hold of Christ Himself. This passage (cf. Rom. 10:10) may help us to understand what justification by faith is, for it shows that righteousness there comes to us when we embrace God’s goodness offered to us in the Gospel. We are then, for this reason, made just: because we believe that God’s propitious to us through Christ. (Calvin)
The Holy Spirit meant what He related to the Apostles as they wrote the New Testament. And some words were chosen with precision. Another preposition that merits note is “anti.” “Anti” as used in the Greek means: “over against; hence, in correspondence to, answering to, in place of, in retribution or return for, in consideration of, on account of.” This is important as it helps us make our point. It is important in that righteousness is never imputed to us “on account of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “because of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in consideration of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in correspondence to” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in answering to” faith. And most importantly, righteousness is never imputed to us “in place of” faith or perfect obedience.
Some may argue that the texts agree with Darby’s position. Does it say that Abraham’s faith was account for righteousness? To answer that, we point to what King David said: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.” Are we to believe that hyssop, a worthless shrub, has the kind of fitness to stand in the place of the sacrificial blood, and make an atonement for? It has no more fitness as faith to stand in the place of Christ’s perfect obedience, to act as our justifying righteousness, or to procure our acceptance with God.
In
Genesis 15:6 we read: “And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Now, was it Abraham’s faith itself which was in God’s account taken for righteousness (Darby’s assumption). Or, was it the righteousness of God in Christ which Abraham’s faith laid hold of? Abraham’s faith was nothing more and nothing less than the renunciation of all virtue and strength in himself, and placing a child-like trust upon God for what He was willing and able to do. This is very far from his faith being a mere substitute for a righteousness which he lacked. Even further was God’s accepting Abraham’s faith “in place of” a perfect obedience to His Law. Rather was Abraham’s faith the acting of a soul which found its life, its hope, its all in the Lord Himself. And that is what “justifying” faith is, it is “simply the instrument by which Christ and His righteousness are received in order to justification.” It is emptiness filled with Christ’s fullness; impotency lying down upon Christ’s strength.” (J.L. Girardeau)"
The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed, By DeaconDean
Righteous and justified go hand in hand.
"Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment,
Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena,
Acts 28:4."
Ibid
If our salvation was dependent on our "obedience" as you say, not a single one of us, the apostles included, would be saved.
God Bless
Till all are one.
