We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Soul Searcher · Dec 22, 2007

VCViking said:
Only God knows a persons heart.

However...

Matthew 7:16-20

16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Yes I am aware of the verses, however most people when they say someone is unsaved base that statement totally on the supposed knowledge that the person doesn't claim to be Christain. Also many people seem to think that the good fruit has somethign to do with professing to be a Christian, spreading the gospel or some such related thing which is very much in error imo.

As you said no one knows the heart of another, even if and when we see them do something that appears to be a bad thing we do not know that they haven't repented and we have no knowledge of what they may do that we are totally unaware of.

This is a type of judgment that none of us should make.

Soul Searcher · Dec 22, 2007

genez said:
Killing and enemy in the name of 'self defense' is not a sin..

I disagree. to kill in the name of self defense is no different than any other killing. To kill in actual self defense where there is no other option save death is different, to kill in defense of others again when there are no other options different still and to kill one in the defense of many may be mandatory in some cases.

However to kill in self defense when killing is not required to defend oneself is wrong.

Calminian · Dec 22, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
It is pretty clear in the overall picture that Jesus would have us err on the side of mercy and forgiveness rather than the alternative when possible.

But remember, saving yourself for the sake of your family and dependents is also merciful, even if it means taking out some thug (a day which I hope neither of us have to face).

But I think we're in basic agreement. A punch or strike with an object that is not injurious or potentially dangerous, should be overlooked as brushed off by the christian as an insult. Fair enough? You have bigger fish to fry.

GenemZ · Dec 22, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
However to kill in self defense when killing is not required to defend oneself is wrong.

Stop putting words in my mouth, and you may no longer have anything to argue against.

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GenemZ · Dec 22, 2007

Everyone.....

To this day we will see on TV during Christmas time, and many movies, that the three wise men found Jesus in the Manger.

The Bible teaches that they did not locate Jesus until he was about two years old. Yet? Tradition and common belief will have many people thinking Jesus was located by the Magi when he was a babe in the Manger.

Likewise... when the context of history is not included in with the mix when Jesus spoke about turning the other cheek? It was not about everyday conflicts we have with others. But, tradition and common belief continues to believe this point of view.

The context was this. The Romans occupied Israel. The reason Rome occupied Israel? The Jews had become apostate in their belief (which is why Jesus was so harsh with the ruling religious party).

The Romans are the ones who slapped Jews.

If Roman did not like the attitude of a Jew, or a Jew refused to bow to a Roman dignitary? The common practice was to slap down the offender into submission. Or, to slap them because they were being arrogantly defiant to Roman authority when demanded something.

Now? To the Jews? The Romans were pagan heathen. They were Goyim. They were seen as inferior dogs. In the Jewish traditional religious mode, a slapped Jew might defy the Roman authority in an emotional militant religious outburst. And, at the same time... feel God was on their side. Or, as the subversive Jews did, seek out revenge at a later time.

Jesus was introducing a new approach to replace the old... telling them how to stay alive while under the oppressive hand of Rome. For if you resisited a slap from a Roman? It could esculate into serious bodily harm to the Jew. Even death.

Thanks to the influence of God's Law over the people, Jews in that day were highly civilized compared to the rest of the world. Jews as a rule did not go around slapping other Jews. They did not demand another Jew to go a mile... which was a Roman practice of instant conscription into service for Rome.

If the Roman soldiers needed a load of supplies carried a mile to another location? A Roman soldier could look at the Jews and say..."You... you...and you!" "Carry these things to where I tell you!"

If a Jew refused to do so because of militant religious pride? He could be made example of....by serious violent abuse.. possibly even killed.

Jesus was teaching the Jews how to survive under the Roman occupation, and to do it as onto the Lord if they did.

On a good note: Roman soldiers overhearing Jesus words would also report back to those in Roman control. They would view Jesus not as some radical revolutionary trying to incite the Jews.

Are we to turn the other cheek as Christians? It all depends on the situation..

Yet? When Jesus spoke those words? He was not speaking to the church. He was speaking to Jews who were under the national collective punishment from God. Roman occupation.

Picture the Communists taking over your land and having a practice of abusive arrogant ruling over the people. Then you can see the context of "turn the other cheek."

The Magi did not find Jesus at his birth. But many today believe they did.

And, in turn? "Turn the other cheek" in its context... had a specific context for it being stated. It was not concerning everyday situations we find ourselves in.

"Turn" could be applied when you are oppressed by someone placing you in a situation where trying to be a hero could lead to much more serious harm.

To love (agape) your enemy means to remain relaxed and without hatred towards him. It does not mean loving affectionate approval. Phileo love would require us to have affectionate approval.

Agape love gives the Christian the power (when being filled with the Spirit and truth) to remain relaxed and without hate towards those who should cause us normally to be uptight and hateful towards them.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

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Zecryphon · Dec 22, 2007

genez said:
Killing and enemy in the name of 'self defense' is not a sin. Matter of fact... If you are commanded in the army to kill a known enemy, and you refuse? Its a sin.

Numbers 32:20-23 (New International Version)

Then Moses said to them, "If you will do this—if you will arm yourselves before the LORD for battle, and if all of you will go armed over the Jordan before the LORD until he has driven his enemies out before him- then when the land is subdued before the LORD, you may return and be free from your obligation to the LORD and to Israel. And this land will be your possession before the LORD.

"But if you fail to do this, you will be sinning against the LORD; and you may be sure that your sin will find you out."

Many a preacher has used that verse to hit drunkards and adulterers over the head... But, in context, the sin being mentioned is the one of failing to kill the enemy in warfare. And, interestingly enough. This battle was to be a pre-emptive strike against an enemy, if not killed off, will come back to destroy you later. Al Qaeda is what comes to mind.

Might as well learn something about what the Bible says while this thread goes on, even though some are here will never agree.

Grace and peace (through strength), GeneZ

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I agree, and I also think that people automatically assume that when you defend yourself with a gun your intent is to kill the intruder. That is not true. My intent is to put down an advancing threat.

Soul Searcher · Dec 23, 2007

genez said:
Stop putting words in my mouth, and you may no longer have anything to argue against.

.

I did not put words in your mouth, Did I?
I think I understood what you meant but the choice of words was not good. e.g. "in the name of self defense" rather than in actual self defense. There is a difference.

As for the part you quoted, I was simply pointing out that it should only be done as a last resort, I was not implying that you said anything to the contrary of this.

Perhaps you just missunderstood?

Soul Searcher · Dec 23, 2007

Calminian said:
But remember, saving yourself for the sake of your family and dependents is also merciful, even if it means taking out some thug (a day which I hope neither of us have to face).

But I think we're in basic agreement. A punch or strike with an object that is not injurious or potentially dangerous, should be overlooked as brushed off by the christian as an insult. Fair enough? You have bigger fish to fry.

Yep close enough.. keep in mind however that the thug may have family and dependents as well. As you say hopefully it is a situtation that we are not faced with and truth be known none of us can really be sure what we would do until the situtation was at hand.

But yes we are in basic agreement.

Soul Searcher · Dec 23, 2007

Zecryphon said:
I agree, and I also think that people automatically assume that when you defend yourself with a gun your intent is to kill the intruder. That is not true. My intent is to put down an advancing threat.

I think you have a point, If I were to use a weapon to defend myself or others I would try to use non deadly force if at all possible.

GenemZ · Dec 23, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
I think you have a point, If I were to use a weapon to defend myself or others I would try to use non deadly force if at all possible.

The point some are using here (and spurred on this debate) is that they would do nothing to harm another.. for any reason. That included, watching on as one's wife was being raped and offering no defense.

Otherwise, we are now just saying things that common sense makes known to those who have it.

In Christ, GeneZ

Soul Searcher · Dec 23, 2007

genez said:
The point some are using here (and spurred on this debate) is that they would do nothing to harm another.. for any reason. That included, watching on as one's wife was being raped and offering no defense.

I certianly would not want to be the wife in that situtation.

I know if I were to rape a woman in front of her husband [of course I would never do that but] I would understand if he put me in the hospital for a couple weeks or even if he killed me I could not hold that against him.

Otherwise, we are now just saying things that common sense makes known to those who have it.

Agreed, I think most of us are on the same page when it comes to defense of self or others.

2theBone · Dec 23, 2007

genez said:
The point some are using here (and spurred on this debate) is that they would do nothing to harm another.. for any reason. That included, watching on as one's wife was being raped and offering no defense.

Otherwise, we are now just saying things that common sense makes known to those who have it.

In Christ, GeneZ

That's why Jesus told his followers to leave their families behind.

Zecryphon · Dec 23, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
I think you have a point, If I were to use a weapon to defend myself or others I would try to use non deadly force if at all possible.

Another thing people have to remember is that there is no such thing as a non-lethal weapon. Things like mace, pepper spray and stun guns all have the potential to be a lethal weapon. If you spray an asthmatic thief with pepper spray or mace, you've just killed him. If the guy has a heart problem, a stun gun will kill him. People need to really think when they buy any weapon that will be used in self-defense. All have the potential to kill.

Zecryphon · Dec 23, 2007

2theBone said:
That's why Jesus told his followers to leave their families behind.

If that's true, why did Jesus go heal Peter's mother, if Jesus expected His followers to leave their families behind?

2theBone · Dec 23, 2007

You doubt that it is true?

Luke 14:26 "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

Yet you would save your life or wife by doing violence with a gun?

Zecryphon · Dec 23, 2007

2theBone said:
You doubt that it is true?

Yet you would save your life or wife by doing violence with a gun?

You are not understanding the scripture you've quoted correctly. Are you familiar with using exaggeration to make a point? Jesus does not command anyone to hate their mother and father, because by doing so, He would be instructing people to break the fifth commandment. He is saying that a person's love for God should be so much, that the love they have for their mother, father, family looks like hatred in comparison.

2theBone · Dec 23, 2007

Zecryphon said:
You are not understanding the scripture you've quoted correctly. Are you familiar with using exaggeration to make a point? Jesus does not command anyone to hate their mother and father, because by doing so, He would be instructing people to break the fifth commandment. He is saying that a person's love for God should be so much, that the love they have for their mother, father, family looks like hatred in comparison.

Of course.

But he IS commanding them to leave all those things behind.

Thus you would not have any need to protect them......OR your own life.

GenemZ · Dec 23, 2007

2theBone said:
That's why Jesus told his followers to leave their families behind.

This debate is really silly....

The families were never left without someone to look after them. God saw to that.

Even Jesus had John to take his mother Mary into his house after Jesus was to be gone.

John 19:25-27 (New International Version)
"Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

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Zecryphon · Dec 23, 2007

2theBone said:
Of course.

But he IS commanding them to leave all those things behind.

Thus you would not have any need to protect them......OR your own life.

Then why bother getting married or having a family? Why not just go follow Jesus and be celibate?

2theBone · Dec 23, 2007

Exactly......the Kingdom of God that Jesus was striving to achieve.

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

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The kingdom is within

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