We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Zecryphon · Dec 17, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
I think you have confused judging people with judging a work. Sure I see things written that I like and things that I do not. I do not judge the person who wrote it that way. In fact I do my very best to give the benifit of a doubt even when the posts appear insulting and ill tempered as I know people are set in thier ways and many are passionate about thier beliefs so giving rep points and judging people are quite different even though it is a form of judgment.[/color]

I think Jesus was refering to judging others in an unfavorable fashion especially as is demonstrated with the woman taken in adultry and about to be stoned, and would also apply today to those within the church who condemn others for thier beliefs without even knowing what the other persons beliefs really are. I have seen far to many times this kind of thing. Yes this is only one type of judgment but it is one that we should not be doing. On the other hand if you see a man with a gun coming at you you are forced to judge wether or not he is a danger to you or those around you and act accordingly right or wrong but that is a bit different.

I think any who attribute a "specific date" are in error most estimates narrow them down to 30-50 years but no one knows for sure when or by who they simply have thier best educated guess.

Yes I know the test which btw was devised by men also.

I do say so, there is little reason for anyone to think that God wrote the text or guided the pen of anyone.

Funny.. I guess you do not understand the meaning of tongues. Understandable since the modern church has corrupted it to mean gibberish that no one understands from what it originally meant as speaking the language that those who hear understand even when it is not your own langauge. True tongues speaking would have people of all nations understanding the same words at the same time no need for translation and yes God is capable of this. Man however is not.

Yet the church destroyed most of those writings which did not agree with the ones they choose... I wonder why?

Yes and when it comes to religion it is impossible to prove most of the positive ones as well.

And you think all these men got it right or that God oversaw the whole process ?

I actually have several and also read several books that are not in either, lots of interesting writings out there.

I have learned from experience that there is little point in telling someone the bible is written by man if they believe otherwise as they have already closed thier eyes to the facts and let belief take over. So I do not think there is any point in continuing.

"I think you have confused judging people with judging a work. Sure I see things written that I like and things that I do not. I do not judge the person who wrote it that way."

Most of the reps are given for statements made, but I have been given rep points for being me too, also for being Lutheran and also for it being a certain day of the week. LOL

"I think Jesus was refering to judging others in an unfavorable fashion especially as is demonstrated with the woman taken in adultry and about to be stoned, and would also apply today to those within the church who condemn others for thier beliefs without even knowing what the other persons beliefs really are."

The interesting thing about that story is that it was never established that the woman was actually caught in adultery. I believe the Pharisees made up that charge in order to try and trick Jesus. To be caught in adultery, there would have had to have been a man present with her, notice you never see the man she was supposedly adulterous with in that story?

"I have seen far to many times this kind of thing. Yes this is only one type of judgment but it is one that we should not be doing. On the other hand if you see a man with a gun coming at you you are forced to judge wether or not he is a danger to you or those around you and act accordingly right or wrong but that is a bit different."

I see a man coming at me with a gun, who is not identifying himself as a police officer is going to be judged a lethal threat and I will respond by drawing my own weapon and firing to neutralize or "put down" the threat until the police come.

"I think any who attribute a "specific date" are in error most estimates narrow them down to 30-50 years but no one knows for sure when or by who they simply have thier best educated guess."

30-50 years is alot more accurate than the 100-200 year dates that used to be given in the past. Who knows, maybe one day we will know exactly when and where the books were written.

"Funny.. I guess you do not understand the meaning of tongues. Understandable since the modern church has corrupted it to mean gibberish that no one understands from what it originally meant as speaking the language that those who hear understand even when it is not your own langauge."

I know what speaking in tongues means. I just don't see how it is applicable when discussing authorship of the scriptures. Since the gift of tongues was seen at Pentecost and not before that day I don't see how you can use it to support authorship of any book of the Bible. IOW, if tongues weren't given until Pentecost, how could tongues be responsible for Moses writing his books or David writing his? Your logic doesn't make sense.

"True tongues speaking would have people of all nations understanding the same words at the same time no need for translation and yes God is capable of this."

We see an example of this in the Bible, but since according to you, God didn't write the Bible there is really no reason to believe that man could understand languages native to other nations, is there? That's just some guy's word, right?

"Yet the church destroyed most of those writings which did not agree with the ones they choose... I wonder why?"

They didnt' destroy them, they just didn't include them. Gospels such as those of Thomas and Mary, were not destroyed. They were simply tossed out.

"Yes and when it comes to religion it is impossible to prove most of the positive ones as well."

I disagree. There are some positive ones that need to be taken on faith, but to say that most of the postive ones can't be proven is just a generalization.

"And you think all these men got it right or that God oversaw the whole process?"

I have no reason to believe that God was not protecting His revelation to mankind. I also have no reason to believe that such great errors were made in the preserving of the documents as to render all copies of the originals unreliable.

"I actually have several and also read several books that are not in either, lots of interesting writings out there."

Yep.

"I have learned from experience that there is little point in telling someone the bible is written by man if they believe otherwise as they have already closed thier eyes to the facts and let belief take over. So I do not think there is any point in continuing"

I agree. You're as stuck in your beliefs as I am in mine.

Soul Searcher · Dec 17, 2007

Zecryphon said:
The interesting thing about that story is that it was never established that the woman was actually caught in adultery. I believe the Pharisees made up that charge in order to try and trick Jesus. To be caught in adultery, there would have had to have been a man present with her, notice you never see the man she was supposedly adulterous with in that story?

Good point I have often wondered why there was no man being charged there never thought of it quite that way though.

I see a man coming at me with a gun, who is not identifying himself as a police officer is going to be judged a lethal threat and I will respond by drawing my own weapon and firing to neutralize or "put down" the threat until the police come.

Understandable.. in some case we are forced to judge in others we should do our best to refrain, like all things in life there really is very little black and white and many shades in between.

30-50 years is alot more accurate than the 100-200 year dates that used to be given in the past. Who knows, maybe one day we will know exactly when and where the books were written.

I would think it is unlikely but anything is possible.

I know what speaking in tongues means. I just don't see how it is applicable when discussing authorship of the scriptures. Since the gift of tongues was seen at Pentecost and not before that day I don't see how you can use it to support authorship of any book of the Bible. IOW, if tongues weren't given until Pentecost, how could tongues be responsible for Moses writing his books or David writing his? Your logic doesn't make sense.

Well I believe and am fairly certian that man wrote the scriptures and therefore was written in the tongue of the man who wrote them. However God could have authored them in tongues if he so choose which would raise the question as to why he did not do so. Today we have so many translations that are different in some cases the meanings of entire passages and even doctorines are changed by the translations, some go back to errors in old translations and others stem from new translations where someone has superimpossed thier beliefs on the text while translating and altering words as a result. One would think that If God truly protected the scriptures and guided them that they would be a bit more consistant.

We see an example of this in the Bible, but since according to you, God didn't write the Bible there is really no reason to believe that man could understand languages native to other nations, is there? That's just some guy's word, right?

All the words in the bible are some guys words, this is true but that does not mean there is not truth in them. And yes I believe that god is capable of such a feat, I have no reason to believe otherwise, If he can create the heavens and the earth with a word, can create man from dust can confound our languages surely he can write or cause to be written somethign that all people can understand with ease.

They didnt' destroy them, they just didn't include them. Gospels such as those of Thomas and Mary, were not destroyed. They were simply tossed out.

They didn't destroy them all, they did destroy many and some had been hidden away to keep them from those who would destroy them and or the people who had them,

I disagree. There are some positive ones that need to be taken on faith, but to say that most of the postive ones can't be proven is just a generalization.

Yes agreed most is a bad choice of wording but the point is that there is much in religion both positive and negative that can not be proven and must be taken on faith.

I have no reason to believe that God was not protecting His revelation to mankind. I also have no reason to believe that such great errors were made in the preserving of the documents as to render all copies of the originals unreliable.

We have no copies of any of the originals to compare so this is another thing that must be taken on faith, but knowing man and seeing the writings that I have saw I am pretty convinced that man has had his hands deep into the mix.

I agree. You're as stuck in your beliefs as I am in mine.

Probably so.. some tihings I am open to and others I am pretty firm on, I guess this may be the case with most of us.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

tapero said:
ETA: I just reread and see what you mean...however... funny thing that Jesus let us off the hook for all our sins, including murder, that is, as pertains to believers. no condemnatin, no punishment..when one comes to Christ..

No condemnation refers to the Lake of Fire. Believer's are not off the hook for their actions on this earth. Believers who do not do what is right will reap what they saw in time.

1 John 5:16 (New International Version)
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that."

But, everyone of our sins is just as heinous as a murderers sins, and then comes to Christ.

Every sin is equal in cutting us off from being filled with the Spirit. But, certain sins are seen as more heinous in God's eyes. After all, certain sins demanded the death penalty under the Law in Israel. One was not to be executed for telling a lie.

what do I or anyone care what angels think?

Speak for yourself. Hopefully you will learn about what you now speak in ignorance.

again, who cares what the angels think.

God does. Very much so! You make them sound like they are an inferior creature the way you talk.

You say God is revealing to angels (what verse do you mean here?)

The entire book of Job was about angels watching in on the affairs of men. The book was based upon a wager between Satan and the Lord concerning Job's integrity towards God!

why satan must be put to death forever (satan is not put to death, he is tortured forever in the abyss)

It is called the "second death." Its a type of death. Satan will not have a single moment to live for himself. It will be a constant 'living death."

More accurately, said of this death in the Lake of Fire...

"An everlasting, immutable existence, of being constantly paralyzed in one's volition, which is always being induced by an absolute domination over one's soul, by a never ending, continuous, unbearable torment."

Giver · Dec 18, 2007

Jet_A_Jockey said:
Hello Giver,
And how do we know it is Jesus that answers our question? We parallel it with scripture.

With all due respect I think you've missed one of the most important examples set by Christ in regards to the law. For example, when His disciples gathered and ate on the sabbath. Also again when He was asked if He'd heal someone on the sabbath. He regarded a necessity to sustenance of human life over that of the law.

That being said, it is permissible to defend the helpless, and would be a greater sin to do nothing and stand idly by expecting God to handle it.

If you are God then you can complete the Law. We are not God. Our job is to obey Gods Word. He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

The world because it doesnt know God needs to be governed by law. The world needs to enforce its laws. Christians dont need the law; Christians are not part of the World. Christians dont take part in words affairs.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Giver said:
If you are God then you can complete the Law. We are not God. Our job is to obey Gods Word. He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

I can love my dog.

But, if he becomes mad with rabies. I will need to shoot him.

lighthousekid · Dec 18, 2007

Glory be to the Father
Glory be to the Son
Glory be to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, now and forever,
for centuries everlasting,
Amen

Zecryphon · Dec 18, 2007

Giver said:
If you are God then you can complete the Law. We are not God. Our job is to obey Gods Word. He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

The world because it doesnt know God needs to be governed by law. The world needs to enforce its laws. Christians dont need the law; Christians are not part of the World. Christians dont take part in words affairs.

"Christians are not part of the World. Christians don’t take part in word’s affairs."

Christ ordered Christians to go into the world in Matthew 28:19, so your statements here are disproven by scripture. I suggest you read Titus 3:1-2 and rethink your position.

Scripture disagrees wtih what you say left and right. I have Matthew 28:19-20 on the left and Titus 3:1-2 on the right. What have you got? Nothing but wishful thinking and most likely locks on the doors of your house, which offers the wicked man resistance, something you say we are not to do. When you can safely practice what you preach, come talk to me. Until then, you're no different than anybody in here. We all use the brains God gave us to keep our families and ourselves safe, so we can continue to do the works He has set aside for us. We just go about it in different ways.

IamRedeemed · Dec 18, 2007

I believe the moral lesson Jesus is stating here, is not to be vengeful. Since the Lord never contradicts Himself, clearly he couldn't mean that we cannot protect ourselves, our families and even our nations otherwise why would he instruct His disciples, knowing that the time for His beating and crucifixion was upon them, and He would soon no longer be with them physically to go buy for themselves swords?

Giver said:
If you are God then you can complete the Law. We are not God. Our job is to obey Gods Word. He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

The world because it doesnt know God needs to be governed by law. The world needs to enforce its laws. Christians dont need the law; Christians are not part of the World. Christians dont take part in words affairs.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Giver said:
Christians dont take part in words affairs.

Matthew 22:21b (New International Version)
"Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

The world will require your participation in may civil activities. Jury duty? Vote? Jesus spoke of the believers who lived by God's Word as being the "Salt" of their land. They were to influence by example. Influence by spiritual growth and setting an example. Jesus said you do not put a light under a bushel basket. You seem to want to do that with your life.

And?

Matthew 5:41 (New International Version)
"If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

That speaks of conscription into the army. Being made to serve in the army for a service. Today we call it a "draft." Back then, a Jew could be instantly volunteered to do work for the Roman army.

IamRedeemed · Dec 18, 2007

That's right. Even Joseph and Mary had to travel just to give an account of themselves as
was dictated for the census. We are to be in the world, but not OF the world, in other
words, we live by God's philosophy of life and not man's.
But it in no way means we do not have duties or functions in the world.
We are instructed to stand and be counted, let our voices be heard, that what
Jesus proclaims to us, shout from the rooftops!

Hallelujah!

genez said:
Matthew 22:21b (New International Version)
"Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

The world will require your participation in may civil activities. Jury duty? Vote? Jesus spoke of the believers who lived by God's Word as being the "Salt" of their land. They were to influence by example. Influence by spiritual growth and setting an example. Jesus said you do not put a light under a bushel basket. You seem to want to do that with your life.

And?

Matthew 5:41 (New International Version)
"If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

That speaks of conscription into the army. Being made to serve in the army for a service. Today we call it a "draft." Back then, a Jew could be instantly volunteered to do work for the Roman army.

Calminian · Dec 18, 2007

Giver said:
Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Jesus told me the devil told you that.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Calminian said:
Jesus told me the devil told you that.

You, too?

Jesus told me that some people have a death wish. The Devil looks for them, and tries to give what is needed to glory in their area of weakness, so they would not seek God's grace to be made strong in their weakness.

2 Corinthians 12:9 (New International Version)

"But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

.

lighthousekid · Dec 18, 2007

1 Will you for ever put me out of your memory, O Lord? will your face for ever be turned away from me?
2 How long is my soul to be in doubt, with sorrow in my heart all the day? how long will he who is against me be given power over me?
3 Let my voice come before you, and give me an answer, O Lord my God; let your light be shining on me, so that the sleep of death may not overtake me;
4 And he who is against me may not say, I have overcome him; and those who are troubling me may not be glad when I am moved.
5 But I have had faith in your mercy; my heart will be glad in your salvation.
6 I will make a song to the Lord, because he has given me my reward.

Calminian · Dec 18, 2007

genez said:
You, too?

Jesus told me that some people have a death wish. The Devil looks for them, and tries to give what is needed to glory in their area of weakness, so they would not seek God's grace to be made strong in their weakness.

:o

He just told me giver was listening to the devil.

Zecryphon · Dec 18, 2007

Calminian said:
:o

He just told me giver was listening to the devil.

Guys, you wouldn't be fibbing just to be able to mock Giver, would you? Fibbing is a sin, just as much as deceiving the flock is. Are you really being honest here?

Calminian · Dec 18, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Guys, you wouldn't be fibbing just to be able to mock Giver, would you? Fibbing is a sin, just as much as deceiving the flock is. Are you really being honest here?

All true. But you do understand that sarcasm is a virtue and should be taught in every seminary?

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Calminian said:
All true. But you do understand that sarcasm is a virtue and should be taught in every seminary?

For those who can read Hebrew and Greek (or, learn from someone who does) they would see certain passages searing with sarcasm as several of the Prophets, or the likes of Paul, just ripped into believers who were ostentatious concerning their faith.

They were filled with the Spirit when they did.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Guys, you wouldn't be fibbing just to be able to mock Giver, would you? Fibbing is a sin, just as much as deceiving the flock is. Are you really being honest here?

Hearing Jesus does not have to come in an audible voice.

If you crave the Word of God, and keep learning sound doctrine? The Holy Spirit will cause you to think in terms of doctrine. Its the same as the Lord speaking to your heart. But, it MUST be according to sound doctrine for it to happen.

Philippians 1:9 (New International Version)
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

Receiving insight into God's Word is like a kiss from God. Its Him speaking to you. BUT! First must come preparation requiring the needed perseverance (suffering) of resisting all that comes against you gaining sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with [will not endure - will not tolerate -will not suffer] sound doctrine.

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

One can not "hear Jesus" without having sound doctrine. He is the Word became flesh. You will have thoughts that you know are not your own thoughts... but becomes your thinking. Faith is a gift from God. God speaks at times to us with our own voice when we think. For we are ONE with Christ if we walk in the Spirit and in Truth.

GenemZ · Dec 18, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Guys, you wouldn't be fibbing just to be able to mock Giver, would you? Fibbing is a sin, just as much as deceiving the flock is. Are you really being honest here?

How come you do not think Giver is fibbing?

I think he might be.

He might have come here to get a reaction, knowing that what he is saying is to most Christians, insane... but, technically... can be manipulated using passages snatched out of context of the full council of Scripture.

For his sake, I hope he is fibbing.

.

tapero · Dec 18, 2007

genez said:
No condemnation refers to the Lake of Fire. Believer's are not off the hook for their actions on this earth. Believers who do not do what is right will reap what they saw in time.

1 John 5:16 (New International Version)

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that."

Every sin is equal in cutting us off from being filled with the Spirit. But, certain sins are seen as more heinous in God's eyes. After all, certain sins demanded the death penalty under the Law in Israel. One was not to be executed for telling a lie.

Speak for yourself. Hopefully you will learn about what you now speak in ignorance.

God does. Very much so! You make them sound like they are an inferior creature the way you talk.

The entire book of Job was about angels watching in on the affairs of men. The book was based upon a wager between Satan and the Lord concerning Job's integrity towards God!

It is called the "second death." Its a type of death. Satan will not have a single moment to live for himself. It will be a constant 'living death."

More accurately, said of this death in the Lake of Fire...

"An everlasting, immutable existence, of being constantly paralyzed in one's volition, which is always being induced by an absolute domination over one's soul, by a never ending, continuous, unbearable torment."

Thats your theology...

Believers face only the judgement of works, and for loss/reward in heaven only.

And in that judgement if all is burned up... person is still saved.

But nonetheless, i had said once comes to Christ one is forgiven, so a murderer is forgiven once comes to Christ, just as any other sinner.

So if you think Jesus' death and resurrection in paying for sins, and that all who believe in him are forgiven and a new creation in Christ, wasn't good enough that is your sad state of affairs.

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

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