We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

I do not know why you are asking me that way sister.
Why would you doubt? Do I not seem convicted in my ministry
and dedicated to the cause of perishing souls to you?

The answer is of course. As just one of the many fields of
missions that God lays before my hands to plow.
I do not tell others to do, what I would refuse to do myself.

God bless.

tapero said:
IamRedeemed said:

As Christians, if we know someone is on death row, we should request to see them.
If they will see us, we will then do what God has called us to do. I didn't say a
thing about what the law or the world should do. What would the world care?
They don't know the way of salvation. But we do.

I said THAT is my only concern, that they be afforded the opportunity to
hear the Gospel and receive or reject it.

How that comes about is OUR duty.
As Christians we insure that opportunity comes about,
by availing ourselves to God as vessels and He makes the way.
I am not speaking as a matter of secular policy.

Hope you now understand where I am coming from.

God bless.

Hi, I was just saying how it goes in prison. I imagine many do just as you say and offer to speak with the person, and of course be awesome if prisoner is allowed and desires such.

Famous case is where dobson was permitted to speak with one serial killer and that inmate came to Christ, and most of that was televised.

I didn't say anything about what the world should do. I said what is done in prisons now. How it is.

prisoner is offered chaplains, they either accept or reject or choose one.

So, I take it you'll be calling on death row inmates then?

Click to expand...

tapero · Dec 17, 2007

IamRedeemed said:
I do not know why you are asking me that way sister.
Why would you doubt? Do I not seem convicted in my ministry
and dedicated to the cause of perishing souls to you?

The answer is of course. As just one of the many fields of
missions that God lays before my hands to plow.
I do not tell others to do, what I would refuse to do myself.

God bless.

The reason I asked you that way was due to the post you had written me.

You might think of changing your God bless, to something you really mean.

Zecryphon · Dec 17, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
BDB is probably the most respected Herbrew to English source we have. I have it as an insert in e-sword.

The definition is
râtsach
BDB Definition:
1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
1d) (Pual) to be killed

Note it includes murder but is not limited to murder, it also includes killing, accidental or planned.

Strongs give the definition as;
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

Also note that it is not limited to murder, and again what is or is not murder is subject to the ideals of man as this is a man made term related to killing.

I did not change the wording of your question. I quoted you intact and accurately. I refer to the killings in the bible as murder because that is what they were. When a group of people go and kill thier neighbors, men women children animals.. that is murder and I don;t for one second ever believe that God had anything to do with it but power hungry rulers missrepresenting God and using these words to get thier people to take the lands, goods and even virgin girls for there own.

Nothing specific off the top of my head but they are certianly there, It just depends on wether you look at it with a honest heart or if you presuppose that every word they said was true. God would not command thou shalt not kill then command the slaughter of every man woman and child in an area. The real tale tale sign is the sparing of young virgin girls to be raped and forced into marriage but the killing of the young virgin males. This definitly has the stench of man all over it.

Seems like a convient excuse to me. No man has the right to judge another man and as Jesus clearly explained in his sermon on the mount men had the law wrong all along and they were killing people as a result in the name of God but God never condoned much less demanded such actions.

"As for the wording I find the Essene version the most interesting and probably the most accurate which states Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing for profit nor for pleasure nor shall you torment it. Yet if it is in self defense or defense of others is permitted."

Quote:
Such as? And would these neighboring people be people that were living lives of opposition to God and perhaps bowing down to idols of false gods?
"Seems like a convient excuse to me."

What seems like a convenient excuse to you would be a violation of the first and second commandments of God.

"No man has the right to judge another man and as Jesus clearly explained in his sermon on the mount men had the law wrong all along and they were killing people as a result in the name of God but God never condoned much less demanded such actions."

There are examples in the OT where God did command the Israelites to wipe out entire towns. The only way I can see you thinking that those acts were the act of man and not God is if, you think that the entire Bible is not God's word. Also, you're incorrect about man not having the right to judge other men. As servants of Christ we are commanded to judge those within the church. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Those who are not part of the church, we are not to judge, those people God judges. If we can not judge others, what is the purpose of church discipline as modeled and explained in Matthew 18? How do we ever enact that practice upon an unrepentant sinner? Don't we frist have to judge them to be unrepentant?

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

That is what I really mean Sister.

I am not really sure why you are upset at my post
I wrote previously though. If you would like to tell me,
that would be appreciated.

As well, I don't know why you would think when I say
God bless it means anything else? I would say nothing
rather than use God's name in an insincere way.
This I can assure you.

God bless you again

tapero said:
IamRedeemed said:

I do not know why you are asking me that way sister.
Why would you doubt? Do I not seem convicted in my ministry
and dedicated to the cause of perishing souls to you?

The answer is of course. As just one of the many fields of
missions that God lays before my hands to plow.
I do not tell others to do, what I would refuse to do myself.

God bless.

The reason I asked you that way was due to the post you had written me.

You might think of changing your God bless, to something you really mean.

Click to expand...

Soul Searcher · Dec 17, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Quote:
Such as? And would these neighboring people be people that were living lives of opposition to God and perhaps bowing down to idols of false gods?
"Seems like a convient excuse to me."

What seems like a convenient excuse to you would be a violation of the first and second commandments of God.

Those who were doing the executions were guilty of the same crimes, they had no right to judge nor execute anyone. The bible is riddled with stories that show the Jews also worshiped false idols and such. It changes nothing. They committed genocide and attributed it to God. They were clearly in the wrong to do so.

"No man has the right to judge another man and as Jesus clearly explained in his sermon on the mount men had the law wrong all along and they were killing people as a result in the name of God but God never condoned much less demanded such actions."

There are examples in the OT where God did command the Israelites to wipe out entire towns. The only way I can see you thinking that those acts were the act of man and not God is if, you think that the entire Bible is not God's word. Also, you're incorrect about man not having the right to judge other men. As servants of Christ we are commanded to judge those within the church. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Those who are not part of the church, we are not to judge, those people God judges. If we can not judge others, what is the purpose of church discipline as modeled and explained in Matthew 18? How do we ever enact that practice upon an unrepentant sinner? Don't we frist have to judge them to be unrepentant?

I often see judgmental Christains saying that we are commanded to judge others yet Jesus said judge not and if you judge you will be judged by that judgment you have used and you will suffer as you have caused others to suffer through your judgment.

And yes not every word in the bible is the word of God but only those who say they are. There are many words in the bible which come from various men and it is clear that many of them did not understand what God wanted as is proven by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. The men may or may not have believed they were correct but that does not make it so.

IMO those who hold the bible up as perfect and claim it to be the word of God are in effect making the bible into thier God and as a result are worshiping a false God but I refrain from passing judgement and execution upon them because I know that is not the right thing to do they simply have wandered from the path. God will forgive and correct as needed in his own good time.

tapero · Dec 17, 2007

IamRedeemed said:
That is what I really mean Sister.

I am not really sure why you are upset at my post
I wrote previously though. If you would like to tell me,
that would be appreciated.

As well, I don't know why you would think when I say
God bless it means anything else? I would say nothing
rather than use God's name in an insincere way.
This I can assure you.

God bless you again

Ah, it's the medium of online as to how things can sound and be taken. I'm very sorry.

take care,
tapero

GenemZ · Dec 17, 2007

tapero said:
point?

That is why God implemented the death penalty in the Law. For, to let off a murderer is to let off a one who reflects the heart of Satan.

God knew full well that men would rebel against this law. Its part of his teaching plan.

For, angels watch and see what happens when men refuse to execute a convicted murderer. Life in prison reveals to them their own sympathies (at one time towards Lucifer) and shows them why a murderer must be removed permanently.

Those who get life sentences still murder in prison. Many commit horrendous acts while behind bars. I am talking about an intentional murderer, not some one who out of some stupid action inadvertently takes another's life.

God is revealing to the angels why Satan must be put to death forever by revealing what would happen if he did not execute his law. This is seen through liberalism in men.

Allowing convicted murderers to stay alive puts a strain on the psyche of those who know that there is always a chance of his escape. Those who do not live in a bubble world, that is.

Those who do not have to prove to the murderer that they are better people than he is, by allowing him to live. They do it to show how good they are. To feel better about self. Its self centered... self righteous.

God will bring to a once-and-for-all end to the present way of men living within the co-existence of evil existing with righteousness.

What we are witnessing to today with man's liberalism reveals what would happen if God refused to send Satan to the Lake of Fire. Satan and his angels are watching. God now is making it clear by the suffering produced in society by keeping a murderer alive, as to why they must be removed on a permanent basis = execution.

There you have it. Though not all will accept it. They will bring up the exceptions to the rule, so that those who are not the exception may not rule.

.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

Whew! Well, I am glad that is all it turned out to be.

I have made that same mistake on several occasions,

so I do understand and I thank you.
In fact I misunderstood something someone posted to me just yesterday...
and everything is fine there too now. Praise the Lord.

God bless!

tapero said:
[/color][/font][/size]

Ah, it's the medium of online as to how things can sound and be taken. I'm very sorry.

take care,
tapero

Zecryphon · Dec 17, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Those who were doing the executions were guilty of the same crimes, they had no right to judge nor execute anyone. The bible is riddled with stories that show the Jews also worshiped false idols and such. It changes nothing. They committed genocide and attributed it to God. They were clearly in the wrong to do so.

I often see judgmental Christains saying that we are commanded to judge others yet Jesus said judge not and if you judge you will be judged by that judgment you have used and you will suffer as you have caused others to suffer through your judgment.

And yes not every word in the bible is the word of God but only those who say they are. There are many words in the bible which come from various men and it is clear that many of them did not understand what God wanted as is proven by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. The men may or may not have believed they were correct but that does not make it so.

IMO those who hold the bible up as perfect and claim it to be the word of God are in effect making the bible into thier God and as a result are worshiping a false God but I refrain from passing judgement and execution upon them because I know that is not the right thing to do they simply have wandered from the path. God will forgive and correct as needed in his own good time.

"I often see judgmental Christains saying that we are commanded to judge others yet Jesus said judge not and if you judge you will be judged by that judgment you have used and you will suffer as you have caused others to suffer through your judgment."

Jesus was speaking about hypocrisy there. He was saying do not judge others as being guilty of the same sins you commit.

"And yes not every word in the bible is the word of God but only those who say they are. There are many words in the bible which come from various men and it is clear that many of them did not understand what God wanted as is proven by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. The men may or may not have believed they were correct but that does not make it so."

So how do you decide which words are of God and which are of men? Also, how do you know for certain that the passages you refer to where you think men acted on their own, independent of God, are really the words of men as opposed to orders from God?

"IMO those who hold the bible up as perfect and claim it to be the word of God are in effect making the bible into thier God and as a result are worshiping a false God but I refrain from passing judgement and execution upon them because I know that is not the right thing to do they simply have wandered from the path. God will forgive and correct as needed in his own good time."

Yeah, I hear that alot from people who doubt the Bible is God's revealation of Himself to mankind. There's even a term for people who take the Bible as God's written word, they're called Bible Idolators.

Soul Searcher · Dec 17, 2007

Zecryphon said:
"I often see judgmental Christains saying that we are commanded to judge others yet Jesus said judge not and if you judge you will be judged by that judgment you have used and you will suffer as you have caused others to suffer through your judgment."

Jesus was speaking about hypocrisy there. He was saying do not judge others as being guilty of the same sins you commit.

Yes this is true.. but also if we are guilty of any sin are we really in a position to judge others for thier sins even though thier sins may be different than our own. Jesus said first remove the log from our own eye then we can see clearly to remove the speck from the eye of our brother.

"And yes not every word in the bible is the word of God but only those who say they are. There are many words in the bible which come from various men and it is clear that many of them did not understand what God wanted as is proven by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. The men may or may not have believed they were correct but that does not make it so."

So how do you decide which words are of God and which are of men? Also, how do you know for certain that the passages you refer to where you think men acted on their own, independent of God, are really the words of men as opposed to orders from God?

Somehow I think it would do little good to try and explain but a hint would be when the bible says "God said" followed by text that fits the character of God it may very well be from God. Where else when it says the thief said or Pilate said we can be pretty sure it is not God talking.

"IMO those who hold the bible up as perfect and claim it to be the word of God are in effect making the bible into thier God and as a result are worshiping a false God but I refrain from passing judgement and execution upon them because I know that is not the right thing to do they simply have wandered from the path. God will forgive and correct as needed in his own good time."

Yeah, I hear that alot from people who doubt the Bible is God's revealation of Himself to mankind. There's even a term for people who take the Bible as God's written word, they're called Bible Idolators.

The bible is a group of writings that were assembled by a group of men from the documents available at the time. Those men deemed these to be holy scriptures and it was a long pains taking process that involved much dispute and was later altered on more than one occasion. There have been numerous edits and translations done as well as books added and removed along the way. The bible is a work of man made up of writings that were inspired by God but make no mistake inspired by does not mean authored by. God wrote no words of the bible all were from men who wrote to the best of thier limited understanding.

tapero · Dec 17, 2007

genez said:
That is why God implemented the death penalty in the Law. For, to let off a murderer is to let off a one who reflects the heart of Satan.

God knew full well that men would rebel against this law. Its part of his teaching plan.

For, angels watch and see what happens when men refuse to execute a convicted murderer. Life in prison reveals to them their own sympathies (at one time towards Lucifer) and shows them why a murderer must be removed permanently.

Those who get life sentences still murder in prison. Many commit horrendous acts while behind bars. I am talking about an intentional murderer, not some one who out of some stupid action inadvertently takes another's life.

God is revealing to the angels why Satan must be put to death forever by revealing what would happen if he did not execute his law. This is seen through liberalism in men.

Allowing convicted murderers to stay alive puts a strain on the psyche of those who know that there is always a chance of his escape. Those who do not live in a bubble world, that is.

Those who do not have to prove to the murderer that they are better people than he is, by allowing him to live. They do it to show how good they are. To feel better about self. Its self centered... self righteous.

God will bring to a once-and-for-all end to the present way of men living within the co-existence of evil existing with righteousness.

What we are witnessing to today with man's liberalism reveals what would happen if God refused to send Satan to the Lake of Fire. Satan and his angels are watching. God now is making it clear by the suffering produced in society by keeping a murderer alive, as to why they must be removed on a permanent basis = execution.

There you have it. Though not all will accept it. They will bring up the exceptions to the rule, so that those who are not the exception may rule.

.

Hi, thanks for writing.

As to the death penalty, as I've never heard a case, no clue on what I would vote... wouldn't know until heard such.

on to your posts.

you wrote:

For, to let off a murderer is to let off a one who reflects the heart of Satan.

where is that written in the bible?

ETA: I just reread and see what you mean...however... funny thing that Jesus let us off the hook for all our sins, including murder, that is, as pertains to believers. no condemnatin, no punishment..when one comes to Christ..tho a murderer who comes to Christ may have consequences in his lifetime, such as others beating him up, etc, or may never have any at all, and there will be none in judgement time for the Christian as well.

But, everyone of our sins is just as heinous as a murderers sins, and then comes to Christ.

you wrote:

For, angels watch and see what happens when men refuse to execute a convicted murderer. Life in prison reveals to them their own sympathies (at one time towards Lucifer) and shows them why a murderer must be removed permanently

what do I or anyone care what angels think?

not sure who you are referring to in blue above..you mean the murderer?

you wrote:

God knew full well that men would rebel against this law. Its part of his teaching plan.

God also knew full well that no man could keep the law perfectly.

you wrote:

God is revealing to the angels why Satan must be put to death forever by revealing what would happen if he did not execute his law. This is seen through liberalism in men.

again, who cares what the angels think.

I'm not following what you are saying above.

so, i'll show here with questions;

You say God is revealing to angels (what verse do you mean here?)

why satan must be put to death forever (satan is not put to death, he is tortured forever in the abyss)

by revealing what would happen (what verse on this)

if he (do you mean God there (he))

did not execute his law.

This is seen thru liberalism in men (not sure what you mean)

you wrote:

Those who do not have to prove to the murderer that they are better people than he is, by allowing him to live. They do it to show how good they are. To feel better about self. Its self centered... self righteous.

ah, and your judgement thereof isn't revelatory of something; such as self righteousness and pride perhaps?

and if someone feels in their heart it is the right thing to not put someone to death, you call that making themselves feel good about themselves and self righteousness, when they see it as other?

you wrote:

God will bring to a once-and-for-all end to the present way of men living within the co-existence of evil existing with righteousness.

yes, it's called the judgement, in the end times, christians to heaven, with God, and all others to hell.

as to evil existing with righteousness do you mean that christians allow unrighteousness and live among evil and that's wrong?

do you have another place to go that we don't know about?

and do you think God in any manner shape or form asks us to change the world to suit our faith? don't think so.

God changes us, we are lights in the world, we are Christ to others in the world.. In no wise, does God say now go make nations for yourselves, He says go tell the gospel.

Says we are not of the world, but we must live in the world. and evil is in the world, and we are in the world, and Christians also do evil as well.

you wrote:

What we are witnessing to today with man's liberalism reveals what would happen if God refused to send Satan to the Lake of Fire. Satan and his angels are watching. God now is making it clear by the suffering produced in society by keeping a murderer alive, as to why they must be removed on a permanent basis = execution.

so you call christians who believe in their heart, due to their faith, you call them liberals if they don't agree with you as to the death penalty.

you say satan and angels are watching? who cares?

again, to reiterate, i really am not much for this topic, just stumbled into it, and again, have never heard a death penalty case (as a juror) and no clue what I would do, would not go in with a yay or nay, but would hear and then decide.

thanks,
tapero

tapero · Dec 17, 2007

one more question...

do you think that Christians who are liberal are loved less by God than conservative Christians?

See a conservative christian, such as I am one, does not make me a list of what someone might have on their list. It's not an automated list as to one who is conservative and one who is liberal.

So, being a conservative, there is no list automatically assigned to me, that i sign off on and say yup ,yup yup.

i must agree with all this or else i'm not conservative.

to me, a conservative christian and this is my opinion only, is one who knows that sin is sin as given in the bible and as well are sins which aren't in the bible, as not all is of course... and we are not to sin, but we do, but with all above, is for me, and is between me and God..

When asked about any above; will tell how i believe on a matter and do not think less of someone if they think or feel or believe differently than I do as pertains to such.

and

that God gave us commands in the nt, and that we are to do those commands, and also recongiznig we fail

and all that pertains to Jesus, basic nicene creed (only one i know) minus the clause that i'm not clear on, re baptism, if means spiritual baptism fine...

if means to be saved means must be water baptised, nope dont agree with that.

ETA: and then I hold beliefs would be considered conservative as well..on some matters.

so then after such..

there are ethical dilemmas in the world.

and people make up their minds as to their belief on a matter. Calling someone a liberal cause they do not go with what some Chrisian association says is right, is not very cool.. but I believe is how it goes.

now to liberals.

so if someone is a christian and believes otherwise than whatever the list is as pertains to conservatives, out there, do you think they are less loved by God?

Do you think they are evil?

Zecryphon · Dec 17, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Yes this is true.. but also if we are guilty of any sin are we really in a position to judge others for thier sins even though thier sins may be different than our own. Jesus said first remove the log from our own eye then we can see clearly to remove the speck from the eye of our brother.

Somehow I think it would do little good to try and explain but a hint would be when the bible says "God said" followed by text that fits the character of God it may very well be from God. Where else when it says the thief said or Pilate said we can be pretty sure it is not God talking.

The bible is a group of writings that were assembled by a group of men from the documents available at the time. Those men deemed these to be holy scriptures and it was a long pains taking process that involved much dispute and was later altered on more than one occasion. There have been numerous edits and translations done as well as books added and removed along the way. The bible is a work of man made up of writings that were inspired by God but make no mistake inspired by does not mean authored by. God wrote no words of the bible all were from men who wrote to the best of thier limited understanding.

"Yes this is true.. but also if we are guilty of any sin are we really in a position to judge others for thier sins even though thier sins may be different than our own. Jesus said first remove the log from our own eye then we can see clearly to remove the speck from the eye of our brother."

Well if you take that stance you could always wait to judge others after you've done your daily repentance. I don't know how you can go through life and not judge other people. Have you ever given someone rep points on this site or blessings? If so, you've judged them. People don't have a problem with judgment when it's positive. It's when it's negative, like declaring something they are doing to be a sin, that people get all offended and whip out the verse about do not judge, lest ye be judged. But if you're paying someone a compliment then those verses are not necessary. We are hypocrites on our own. We like one form of judgment but condmen another.

"Somehow I think it would do little good to try and explain but a hint would be when the bible says "God said" followed by text that fits the character of God it may very well be from God. Where else when it says the thief said or Pilate said we can be pretty sure it is not God talking."

Well now wait a minute, how would say Matthew or any of the apostles know what Pilate said to Jesus? Were they there at the time? Did they hear Pilate say those things to Jesus? Or is 2 Timothy 3:16 literally true? And God told those writers of the gospel what was said because God was there and could relate it to them?

"The bible is a group of writings that were assembled by a group of men from the documents available at the time. Those men deemed these to be holy scriptures and it was a long pains taking process that involved much dispute and was later altered on more than one occasion. There have been numerous edits and translations done as well as books added and removed along the way. The bible is a work of man made up of writings that were inspired by God but make no mistake inspired by does not mean authored by. God wrote no words of the bible all were from men who wrote to the best of thier limited understanding."

I believe God used men to record His revelation about Himself the way you or I would use a pen to write a letter. 2 Timothy 3:16 uses the term "God-breathed" and by inspiriation of God as the source of the scriptures. So it attributes the scriptures to God. If God can speak the world into existence, why can't He breath the scriptures into existence?

Soul Searcher · Dec 17, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Well if you take that stance you could always wait to judge others after you've done your daily repentance. I don't know how you can go through life and not judge other people. Have you ever given someone rep points on this site or blessings? If so, you've judged them. People don't have a problem with judgment when it's positive. It's when it's negative, like declaring something they are doing to be a sin, that people get all offended and whip out the verse about do not judge, lest ye be judged. But if you're paying someone a compliment then those verses are not necessary. We are hypocrites on our own. We like one form of judgment but condmen another.

You do have a point, and yes we do make judgments all the time. Although I fail to see how giving or not giving rep points or blessings is passing a judgment on anyone.

Well now wait a minute, how would say Matthew or any of the apostles know what Pilate said to Jesus? Were they there at the time? Did they hear Pilate say those things to Jesus? Or is 2 Timothy 3:16 literally true? And God told those writers of the gospel what was said because God was there and could relate it to them?

We do not even know for sure who wrote the text so there is no way to honestly answer the question as to how they got thier info. Likely it was spread word of mouth for many years before being written down.

As for the passage being literally true it says all scripture which would include stuff that is not in our bible and possibly remove stuff that is seeing as how much of it had not yet been written. Even then inspired does not mean authored, it does not mean the God came and wispered in thier ear what to write but that they were inspired to write down what they believed, knew, heard, saw or whatever the case may be, Still there are many that make it seem as though God personally dictated every word, directed the concil as to which books to be put into the cannon and guided the translators as they translated it but such is little more than fantasy.

I believe God used men to record His revelation about Himself the way you or I would use a pen to write a letter. 2 Timothy 3:16 uses the term "God-breathed" and by inspiriation of God as the source of the scriptures. So it attributes the scriptures to God. If God can speak the world into existence, why can't He breath the scriptures into existence?

Actually the word scriptures literally means all written words, not just those in our bibles, or it can be more precise to mean sacred writings but in either case if we get literal and specific it would refer to writings that were discarded and destroyed and not refer to those which had not yet been written but are in our bibles. It also does not indicate that the writings are perfect, nor without error. It does say that they are profitable for doctorine and that is true even those which the church saw fit to destroy could be used for doctorines. It does not claim to be the word of God even though it seems most people think it does say that it doesn't.

And yes God could breath the scriptures into existance and I would think if he had there would be no need for the hand of man to touch them, no need for translations as they would be written in tongues that would be readable by all and they would never need to be selected by man as they actually were.

Yes God could have done it but he did not, Men wrote the scriptures, men edited, copied, translated and compiled them into what we now call the bible and many years later they removed several books from that collection and now call that the bible though not all bibles are the same and not all contain the same books much less the same words.

Zecryphon · Dec 17, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
You do have a point, and yes we do make judgments all the time. Although I fail to see how giving or not giving rep points or blessings is passing a judgment on anyone. [/color]

We do not even know for sure who wrote the text so there is no way to honestly answer the question as to how they got thier info. Likely it was spread word of mouth for many years before being written down.

As for the passage being literally true it says all scripture which would include stuff that is not in our bible and possibly remove stuff that is seeing as how much of it had not yet been written. Even then inspired does not mean authored, it does not mean the God came and wispered in thier ear what to write but that they were inspired to write down what they believed, knew, heard, saw or whatever the case may be, Still there are many that make it seem as though God personally dictated every word, directed the concil as to which books to be put into the cannon and guided the translators as they translated it but such is little more than fantasy.

Actually the word scriptures literally means all written words, not just those in our bibles, or it can be more precise to mean sacred writings but in either case if we get literal and specific it would refer to writings that were discarded and destroyed and not refer to those which had not yet been written but are in our bibles. It also does not indicate that the writings are perfect, nor without error. It does say that they are profitable for doctorine and that is true even those which the church saw fit to destroy could be used for doctorines. It does not claim to be the word of God even though it seems most people think it does say that it doesn't.

And yes God could breath the scriptures into existance and I would think if he had there would be no need for the hand of man to touch them, no need for translations as they would be written in tongues that would be readable by all and they would never need to be selected by man as they actually were.

Yes God could have done it but he did not, Men wrote the scriptures, men edited, copied, translated and compiled them into what we now call the bible and many years later they removed several books from that collection and now call that the bible though not all bibles are the same and not all contain the same books much less the same words.

"You do have a point, and yes we do make judgments all the time. Although I fail to see how giving or not giving rep points or blessings is passing a judgment on anyone."

By giving rep points or blessings you are judging the words of a person or the person themselves and saying that the words they write or they themselves are good. Since this is positive judgment, people don't mind. What's a compliment, if not judging someone in a positive way and telling them? It's only when the judgment is negative that people don't like being judged.

"We do not even know for sure who wrote the text so there is no way to honestly answer the question as to how they got thier info. Likely it was spread word of mouth for many years before being written down."

How many years is many? Biblical scholars have attributed alot of the works in the Bible to a specific author and a specific date. So to say we don't know who wrote all of the books is not an honest statement in my opinion.

"As for the passage being literally true it says all scripture which would include stuff that is not in our bible and possibly remove stuff that is seeing as how much of it had not yet been written."

And what constitutes scripture? There must be a test that the ancient writings had to pass to be considered scripture, right? What was that test? Here's a web page that explains this a bit.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html

"Even then inspired does not mean authored, it does not mean the God came and wispered in thier ear what to write but that they were inspired to write down what they believed, knew, heard, saw or whatever the case may be,"

Here is an excerpt from the International Bible Encyclopedia on this fascinating topic. I'm not being fecetious here, I find it a fascinating topic. This is only an excerpt as the whole entry is way long.

For the Greek word in this passage - θεόπνευστος, theópneustoš - very distinctly does not mean "inspired of God." This phrase is rather the rendering of the Latin, divinitus inspirata, restored from the Wycliff ("Al Scripture of God ynspyrid is....") and Rhemish ("All Scripture inspired of God is....") versions of the Vulgate (Jerome's Latin Bible, 390-405 ad) The Greek word does not even mean, as the King James Version translates it, "given by inspiration of God," although that rendering (inherited from, Tyndale: "All Scripture given by inspiration of God is...." and its successors; compare Geneva: "The whole Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is....") has at least to say for itself that it is a somewhat clumsy, perhaps, but not misleading, paraphrase of the Greek term in theological language of the day. The Greek term has, however, nothing to say of inspiring or of inspiration: it speaks only of a "spiring" or "spiration." What it says of Scripture is, not that it is "breathed into by God" or is the product of the Divine "inbreathing" into its human authors, but that it is breathed out by God, "God-breathed," the product of the creative breath of God. In a word, what is declared by this fundamental passage is simply that the Scriptures are a Divine product, without any indication of how God has operated in producing them. No term could have been chosen, however, which would have more emphatically asserted the Divine production of Scripture than that which is here employed. The "breath of God" is in Scripture just the symbol of His almighty power, the bearer of His creative word. "By the word of Yahweh," we read in the significant parallel of Psa_33:6 "were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." And it is particularly where the operations of God are energetic that this term (whether רוּח, rūaḥ, or נשׁמה, neshāmāh) is employed to designate them - God's breath is the irresistible outflow of His power. When Paul declares, then, that "every scripture" or "all scripture" is the product of the Divine breath, "is God-breathed," he asserts with as much energy as he could employ that Scripture is the product of a specifically Divine operation.

3. Consideration of Important Passages

(1) 2Ti_3:16
In the passage in which Paul makes this energetic assertion of the Divine origin of Scripture he is engaged in explaining the greatness of the advantages which Timothy had enjoyed for learning the saving truth of God. He had had good teachers; and from his very infancy he had been, by his knowledge of the Scriptures, made wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. The expression, "sacred writings," here employed (1Ti_3:15), is a technical one, not found elsewhere in the New Testament, it is true, but occurring currently in Philo and Josephus to designate that body of authoritative books which constituted the Jewish "Law." It appears here anarthrously because it is set in contrast with the oral teaching which Timothy had enjoyed, as something still better: he had not only had good instructors, but also always "an open Bible," as we should say, in his hand. To enhance yet further the great advantage of the possession of these Sacred Scriptures the apostle adds now a sentence throwing their nature strongly up to view. They are of Divine origin and therefore of the highest value for all holy purposes.

There is room for some difference of opinion as to the exact construction of this declaration. Shall we render "Every Scripture" or "All Scripture"? Shall we render "Every (or all) Scripture is God-breathed and (therefore) profitable," or "Every (or all) Scripture, being God-breathed, is as well profitable"? No doubt both questions are interesting, but for the main matter now engaging our attention they are both indifferent. Whether Paul, looking back at the Sacred Scriptures he had just mentioned, makes the assertion he is about to add, of them distributively, of all their parts, or collectively, of their entire mass, is of no moment: to say that every part of these Sacred Scriptures is God-breathed and to say that the whole of these Sacred Scriptures is God-breathed, is, for the main matter, all one. Nor is the difference great between saying that they are in all their parts, or in their whole extent, God-breathed and therefore profitable, and saying that they are in all their parts, or in their whole extent, because God-breathed as well profitable. In both cases these Sacred Scriptures are declared to owe their value to their Divine origin; and in both cases this their Divine origin is energetically asserted of their entire fabric. On the whole, the preferable construction would seem to be, "Every Scripture, seeing that it is God-breathed, is as well profitable." In that case, what the apostle asserts is that the Sacred Scriptures, in their every several passage - for it is just "passage of Scripture" which "Scripture" in this distributive use of it signifies - is the product of the creative breath of God, and, because of this its Divine origination, is of supreme value for all holy purposes."

"Still there are many that make it seem as though God personally dictated every word, directed the concil as to which books to be put into the cannon and guided the translators as they translated it but such is little more than fantasy."

If you say so.

"Actually the word scriptures literally means all written words, not just those in our bibles, or it can be more precise to mean sacred writings but in either case if we get literal and specific it would refer to writings that were discarded and destroyed and not refer to those which had not yet been written but are in our bibles. It also does not indicate that the writings are perfect, nor without error. It does say that they are profitable for doctorine and that is true even those which the church saw fit to destroy could be used for doctorines. It does not claim to be the word of God even though it seems most people think it does say that it doesn't."

I belive this is addressed in the ISBE excerpt.

"And yes God could breath the scriptures into existance and I would think if he had there would be no need for the hand of man to touch them,"

I didn't know God spoke English. LOL

"no need for translations as they would be written in tongues that would be readable by all and they would never need to be selected by man as they actually were."

I think God used man to record His revelation so that people would not doubt as easily as they would if books just suddenly appeared and then someone claimed them to be the word of God. This way there were authors alive at the time who could attest to the truthfulness of the scriptures and the scriptures could be compared to earlier writings to see if what was contained in these contradicted the holy writings that had come before. If there were a contradiction or a major flaw the work could be discarded as not being of God.

"Yes God could have done it but he did not,"

You know it's impossible to prove a negative statement, right?

"Men wrote the scriptures, men edited, copied, translated and compiled them into what we now call the bible"

Yes, that's how they preseved documents in the olden days.

"and many years later they removed several books from that collection and now call that the bible though not all bibles are the same and not all contain the same books much less the same words."

Well if you feel short-changed with the Protestant Bible you can always opt for the Catholic one and get all 72 books.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

Interesting and thought provoking post.
I think I'll think about it awhile before I state any opinion.
It is definitely worthy of some thought.

God bless.

genez said:
That is why God implemented the death penalty in the Law. For, to let off a murderer is to let off a one who reflects the heart of Satan.

God knew full well that men would rebel against this law. Its part of his teaching plan.

For, angels watch and see what happens when men refuse to execute a convicted murderer. Life in prison reveals to them their own sympathies (at one time towards Lucifer) and shows them why a murderer must be removed permanently.

Those who get life sentences still murder in prison. Many commit horrendous acts while behind bars. I am talking about an intentional murderer, not some one who out of some stupid action inadvertently takes another's life.

God is revealing to the angels why Satan must be put to death forever by revealing what would happen if he did not execute his law. This is seen through liberalism in men.

Allowing convicted murderers to stay alive puts a strain on the psyche of those who know that there is always a chance of his escape. Those who do not live in a bubble world, that is.

Those who do not have to prove to the murderer that they are better people than he is, by allowing him to live. They do it to show how good they are. To feel better about self. Its self centered... self righteous.

God will bring to a once-and-for-all end to the present way of men living within the co-existence of evil existing with righteousness.

What we are witnessing to today with man's liberalism reveals what would happen if God refused to send Satan to the Lake of Fire. Satan and his angels are watching. God now is making it clear by the suffering produced in society by keeping a murderer alive, as to why they must be removed on a permanent basis = execution.

There you have it. Though not all will accept it. They will bring up the exceptions to the rule, so that those who are not the exception may rule.

.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

Right! Which is why Jesus addressed it as a matter of the heart in the NT.
And He called it murder because it is rooted in hatred for another
in your heart that would cause you to want to murder them and has
nothing to do with capital punishment.

God bless

genez said:
This is one prime example of why we need to be taught from the original languages if we are to understand the Word of God properly.

It does not say... "Thou shall not kill."

The Hebrew says... "Thou shall not murder"

Commit homicide!

If it said what you think it says? Then how could the Lord command Israel to kill the enemies in battle?

.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

Jesus didn't let any of us "off" for our sins without repentance, which means an acknowledgment of our depraved state without Him and a desire to trade this body of death for the living water and the bread of life that we can have by virtue of His shed blood. In addition, even when Jesus forgives us, if we have committed a crime, we still have the laws of the land to contend with. We can't go to the Criminal Court and successfully get out of our sentence with a waiver from Jesus, (not to say that God can't influence the outcome, as anything is possible) However, to use that as a blanket to oppose capital punishment for things in the temporal life doesn't really apply imo.

IamRedeemed · Dec 17, 2007

Why does everything have to be about conservative versus liberal?
How about rather we put our focus on what is obedient versus what is disobedient.
Submitting unto God and the fullness of His Word and serving Him vs submitting to and serving one's flesh and the relative ideas of man that say 2+2 is up to you?

How about we all unify with the Word of God, rather than try to unify with people?
A three fold cord is not easily broken and if one is in agreement with God by
His Word and another is also in agreement with God by His Word, then
naturally the two parties will be unified at the top of the triangle.

It is the Word of God that separates wheat from the chaff.

Jesus said, think not that I have come to bring peace, I have not come to
bring peace but a sword. The sword of the Spirit IS the Word of God-
(see the Armor of God which is the weapons of our warfare in Ephesians 6:11-17)

It is the fullness of the counsel of God that has the power to unite or divide.

Some divisions are silly and utter foolishness, while others are quite mandatory.

Just some thoughts.......

Soul Searcher · Dec 17, 2007

Zecryphon said:
"You do have a point, and yes we do make judgments all the time. Although I fail to see how giving or not giving rep points or blessings is passing a judgment on anyone."

By giving rep points or blessings you are judging the words of a person or the person themselves and saying that the words they write or they themselves are good. Since this is positive judgment, people don't mind. What's a compliment, if not judging someone in a positive way and telling them? It's only when the judgment is negative that people don't like being judged.

I think you have confused judging people with judging a work. Sure I see things written that I like and things that I do not. I do not judge the person who wrote it that way. In fact I do my very best to give the benifit of a doubt even when the posts appear insulting and ill tempered as I know people are set in thier ways and many are passionate about thier beliefs so giving rep points and judging people are quite different even though it is a form of judgment.

I think Jesus was refering to judging others in an unfavorable fashion especially as is demonstrated with the woman taken in adultry and about to be stoned, and would also apply today to those within the church who condemn others for thier beliefs without even knowing what the other persons beliefs really are. I have seen far to many times this kind of thing. Yes this is only one type of judgment but it is one that we should not be doing. On the other hand if you see a man with a gun coming at you you are forced to judge wether or not he is a danger to you or those around you and act accordingly right or wrong but that is a bit different.

How many years is many? Biblical scholars have attributed alot of the works in the Bible to a specific author and a specific date. So to say we don't know who wrote all of the books is not an honest statement in my opinion.

I think any who attribute a "specific date" are in error most estimates narrow them down to 30-50 years but no one knows for sure when or by who they simply have thier best educated guess.

And what constitutes scripture? There must be a test that the ancient writings had to pass to be considered scripture, right? What was that test? Here's a web page that explains this a bit.

Yes I know the test which btw was devised by men also.

If you say so.

I do say so, there is little reason for anyone to think that God wrote the text or guided the pen of anyone.

I belive this is addressed in the ISBE excerpt.

I didn't know God spoke English. LOL

Funny.. I guess you do not understand the meaning of tongues. Understandable since the modern church has corrupted it to mean gibberish that no one understands from what it originally meant as speaking the language that those who hear understand even when it is not your own langauge. True tongues speaking would have people of all nations understanding the same words at the same time no need for translation and yes God is capable of this. Man however is not.

I think God used man to record His revelation so that people would not doubt as easily as they would if books just suddenly appeared and then someone claimed them to be the word of God. This way there were authors alive at the time who could attest to the truthfulness of the scriptures and the scriptures could be compared to earlier writings to see if what was contained in these contradicted the holy writings that had come before. If there were a contradiction or a major flaw the work could be discarded as not being of God.

Yet the church destroyed most of those writings which did not agree with the ones they choose... I wonder why?

You know it's impossible to prove a negative statement, right?

Yes and when it comes to religion it is impossible to prove most of the positive ones as well.

Yes, that's how they preseved documents in the olden days.

And you think all these men got it right or that God oversaw the whole process ?

Well if you feel short-changed with the Protestant Bible you can always opt for the Catholic one and get all 72 books.

I actually have several and also read several books that are not in either, lots of interesting writings out there.

I have learned from experience that there is little point in telling someone the bible is written by man if they believe otherwise as they have already closed thier eyes to the facts and let belief take over. So I do not think there is any point in continuing.

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Legend

Well-Known Member

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

The kingdom is within

Legend

Well-Known Member

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Well-Known Member

The kingdom is within

Legend

Legend

Well-Known Member

The kingdom is within

Well-Known Member

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

The kingdom is within

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