We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[tremble]

In John's gospel he wrote what Jesus said before he raised Lazarus from the grave: "Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

BTW, I'm glad you mentioned this. The explanation is in the verse itself. He is making an exception to the rule. The prayer is not spoken so that people can hear the words of his prayer to God, but so that they will believe his authority when the miracle is performed. The motive is quite clearly different from his instructions on private prayer.

 

[Alithis]

praying in a prayer meeting of 15 folk,is not praying in public.
praying from sincerity is not repetition to show of.

 

[Omena]

I think we can all still pray together, but I think Jesus is telling us that we should be praying silently. Even if we are to discuss the things which we are going to pray about beforehand, then I think that's fine, but I've always found that when I'm in a group and someone is leading the prayer (a term which I've never been fond of), that all I'm really doing is listening to what the person is saying, and I'm not really talking to God myself. I'm not sure if others experience that. Perhaps Jesus was telling us to pray silently because genuine prayer comes from each of us going to that "secret place" in our minds where we communicate with God. Just some thoughts.

 

[Knockout]

I might tend to agree with that interpretation, except that Jesus also said "you, when you pray, go to your room and pray in secret". So he wasn't just speaking out against proud showy prayers, he was also literally telling us to pray by ourselves in secret.

This is right and when we get literal prayer posts, I see this as a show. God doesn't need to log in here to see that someone prayed. There is something very false and empty about these 'prayers' when I see them on here.

I wish people would go to their closet to do this and simply lend their support on the forum.

 

[Ruthie24]

I believe we are saved by faith and by modeling after Jesus. The two go hand in hand... Works and belief.

 

[ingridz]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

AMEN.
We are saved by believing His righteousness and goodness. And such kind of belief can be tested through time by our works. The intention is showed by works. It is the intention that matters most. Works are not merits, they are duties and responsibilities. God check our intention by our works. Though we sometimes do bad things, God can still see good intention if we repent and change.

The proof/assurance of salvation is spiritual growth (John chapter 15). If a Christian continues to grow in the image of Jesus, he/she is saved and will never be lost again. So what matters most is the spiritual growth. Everyone is different in the process of growth, it does not require flawless, but if it is a life, it grows. Just as a child of 5 need to look and act like a healthy 5 years old, he/she is perfect according to his/her age. He/she does not need to look and act like a 10 years old. That means if you do things according to your understanding of the law, you are perfect. God does not require flawless, while He also does not blame flawless. In His eyes, those who does not sin is as righteous as those who sins and repents. Just as a driver drives, if he/she breaks the law, and then after that he/she remorse and changes, in the eyes of the police, he/she is still obeying the law. So what matters most is the intention. Those who obey the law and those who repent are all righteous.

Many people say that no one obeyed the law and no one did it. That is not the truth. The Bible tells that Abraham and David and many other people did it. So the word "did it " or "obey the law" does not requires flawless but requires the right intention. Your intention is showed by a serious of works. That's why works can not be separated from the faith. Your works prove that whether or not you believe in God's righteousness and goodness.

 

[ingridz]

The point of believing he died on the cross for our sins is believing in God's goodness and righteousness (Romans 3:25). This is the definition of faith from the beginning to the end. Many people say that faith means believing in God's promises. That is not true. In the new testament, Jesus praised a Canaanite woman of her great faith, He said her faith was greater than many Israelites(Matthew 15:22-28). This woman was promised nothing and was refused by Jesus for her requests to heal her daughter. Her faith is believing in God's goodness even though she was refused. She did not count on her feelings but on her faith. Abel was promised nothing yet Jesus said he was the first righteous man. The point of faith is believing in God's righteousness and goodness no matter how you feel and what you see. and such kind of belief is proven and tested through works. Works do not narrowly mean that something you do before the eyes of other people. Work means choices. Any choice made by your will is a work, even when sometime you have no need to talk and keep silence. You can do things by doing nothing. for example:

LUKE 10:30-37

Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

End quote.

In this parable, the Levite and the priest did something by doing nothing, they passed by.

We have to give a closer look at the definition of work. Faith is something of an intention, and it is only showed and tested through works. The definition of faith goes wrong when the definition of work goes wrong.

 

[ingridz]

Many people say that the robber on the cross in Luke 23 was saved without work. That is totally wrong. Let's take a look at the scripture to see what has he done on the cross.

LUKE 23:39-43
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[j] save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[k] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

End quote.

The verses of 40 and 42 was what the saved robber did. He was saved by his faith with works and his works were the words he said which manifested his faith. By his words he admitted his sins and accepted the punishment, he believes Jesus was the son of God and the future king. He believes in God's righteousness and goodness even though he felt so bad on the cross. He used his last strength to say righteous words. His humility is showed by saying that it is just to get punished for his sins and he has great compassion and admiration on Jesus.

In James chapter 3 it says that every word, every speech of people is a kind of work. How is it possible that so many people believe that the robber on the cross was saved by his faith without work. The robber's intention is clearly showed by his work of speech.

 

[ingridz]

The problem is that, instead of duties and responsibilities, the mainstream theology turns works into merits. In this way they can banish works. Yet without works faith is dead, the book of James clearly claims it. Works are duties and responsibilities, we have nothing to boast even if we do it.

In fact, by obeying the law is a protection and great benefits that God has given us. Why many people feel that obeying the law is a kind of loss and suffering? because he/she does not believe God is good, they think God deprives their happiness by setting the law. This is the psychology of the snake and Eden. They thought God planted the forbidden tree in order to deprive them. In their eyes there were no gifts and blessings, there were no graces, there were only deprivation and bondages. Cain believed that God created man only to destroy them. For them the law is bad, it is nothing but curse.

The truth is God gives through His law, the law is graceful. Law is not dead principles to give you bondage, it is a gift to set you free. Every law has a good intention and a lot of benefits behind it. I wonder why many peope turn the law into curses, because they have no faith. They can not see the Father's good intention by the law. The definition of law is how to use your freedom, the intention of law is to give you freedom, help everyone enjoy God's creation freely. Praise the Lord.

Just look at the law of the road, you will see that it is intended to give you the freedom to drive. There are many good laws in many countries that is designed to give equal rights to all the citizens in that country to enjoy the good things together. How good are the great ten commandments that are set by our creator, do you think our creator made the law to torment you and enslave you? No, it gives you freedom and joy, it brings happiness.

 

[Alithis]

I think we can all still pray together, but I think Jesus is telling us that we should be praying silently. Even if we are to discuss the things which we are going to pray about beforehand, then I think that's fine, but I've always found that when I'm in a group and someone is leading the prayer (a term which I've never been fond of), that all I'm really doing is listening to what the person is saying, and I'm not really talking to God myself. I'm not sure if others experience that. Perhaps Jesus was telling us to pray silently because genuine prayer comes from each of us going to that "secret place" in our minds where we communicate with God. Just some thoughts.

I must disagree on this perception of the matter.
It is the exact oppisite of the argument people make against praying in tongues .they take things to the extreme of the presented instruction.
Praying outloud in tongues to much in a gathering is not profitable to the hearers unless there is interpratation.for how can we say amen to what is being prayed..

So... praying in a meeting in silence cannot
be of any use for..how can we say amen when we do not know what is being prayed?

It is not what the verses are about.they are dealing with heart attitude on why a person is praying and the sincerity of the heart.praying in silence is useless to the person next to you in a meeting. They could be praying the oppisite of what you think they are.

 

[Bramwell]

Hi Michael,

Maybe we should take a closer look at what Jesus said with regard to prayer. He told us not to be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in church and street corners. He tells us, clearly, not to do this. (Matthew 6:5)

Instead, Jesus instructs us to pray secretly, with an emphasis on the prayer being secret. You question how prayer can be of use if it is silent (or secret), whereas Jesus says that God, who sees in secret, is the one who will reward our prayer. He is the only one aware of our prayers when we pray in secret, and it is from Him alone whom we expect to receive a reward.

With regard to church prayer meetings, I agree there may be room for some exception. I have prayed out loud before with a group of believers in our home church fellowship, and not felt that I was doing it to be seen of men. We all spoke out loud at the same time, and we were not listening to what the others were saying.

But I think this kind of deviation has to be seen as a sort of exception for Christian prayer - not the rule. In general, prayer is best kept personal and private - just as Jesus commanded. And yes, even when we pray in silence, God still hears our prayers.

 

[Alithis]

Hi Michael,

Maybe we should take a closer look at what Jesus said with regard to prayer. He told us not to be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in church and street corners. He tells us, clearly, not to do this. (Matthew 6:5)

Instead, Jesus instructs us to pray secretly, with an emphasis on the prayer being secret. You question how prayer can be of use if it is silent (or secret), whereas Jesus says that God, who sees in secret, is the one who will reward our prayer. He is the only one aware of our prayers when we pray in secret, and it is from Him alone whom we expect to receive a reward.

With regard to church prayer meetings, I agree there may be room for some exception. I have prayed out loud before with a group of believers in our home church fellowship, and not felt that I was doing it to be seen of men. We all spoke out loud at the same time, and we were not listening to what the others were saying.

But I think this kind of deviation has to be seen as a sort of exception for Christian prayer - not the rule. In general, prayer is best kept personal and private - just as Jesus commanded. And yes, even when we pray in silence, God still hears our prayers.

for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen.
the "church" is entirely something different .a living organism in which the spirit of God lives.
but take the reverse analogy..based on your reasoning,it must be ok to pray out\loud in an unknown tongue .because what is said is secretive...
but we know its not ok ,because...you cannot say amen.
just so ,if a room full of believers stand praying in silence...you cannot say amen ,as you do not know what is being prayed.

obviously people used to stand for hours chanting repetitive recitation in order to show off how great they were.and the lord speaks of this also."But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
but we know this is not what takes place in a meeting where people have gathered specifically to worship and seek the lord.

 

[Omena]

I must disagree on this perception of the matter.
It is the exact oppisite of the argument people make against praying in tongues .they take things to the extreme of the presented instruction.
Praying outloud in tongues to much in a gathering is not profitable to the hearers unless there is interpratation.for how can we say amen to what is being prayed..

So... praying in a meeting in silence cannot
be of any use for..how can we say amen when we do not know what is being prayed?

It is not what the verses are about.they are dealing with heart attitude on why a person is praying and the sincerity of the heart.praying in silence is useless to the person next to you in a meeting. They could be praying the oppisite of what you think they are.

Hi Michael,

I think you are right in some of the things you are saying. The main point being that Jesus was trying to get people over their proud self-righteous attitude towards prayer. I agree that he was really trying to attack that, and that's a problem which I can see you agree still exists in many churches today.

As for your point about how praying in silence cannot be beneficial, I wonder if you understood the point I was making earlier. I was saying that in my experience, when I listen to someone leading a prayer out loud, I have a hard time praying myself (in fact, I can't really pray myself. It's like I'm trying to listen to music while I pray). So in effect, I'm not really involved in the person's prayer, I'm more or less just there for moral support, or to see what he/she is praying about out of curiosity.

I think this is why Jesus WAS telling us to pray secretly. Not just because people can become self-righteous about it, but also because nothing is really gained from listening in on someone else's prayer, and it is difficult to pray ourselves if we're listening to someone else.

I understand what you're saying about the dilemma of not knowing (or being in agreement about) what we're all praying for. But that why I was suggesting we could talk about it beforehand. If we all want to pray for world peace, then we can say to each other (before we pray): "let's pray for world peace", and then we go silent and each talk to God about our request personally, and in our own words. I know I like that a lot better because it makes me feel more comfortable, and I also feel like that creates MORE unity with the prayer, because we're all searching for our personal feelings and words to tell God what we want.

 

[tremble]

Thanks for all the comments on this issue of prayer. I think it's important to remember why we are talking about this. It's not a thread on prayer. The OP mentioned Jesus' comments about "Lord, Lord" people. Jesus said;

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

MT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The concern is that these people believe they are doing the right thing. They say "Lord, Lord". They probably do all kinds of "spiritual things". To the average person, these people probably look like model Christians. And yet Jesus still had a problem with them, not because they performed spiritual works, but because they performed the wrong spiritual works. They disregarded what he told them to do, in preference for their own expressions of spirituality.

Almost certainly they were performing actions which they thought made them look better in the eyes of others; traditions of men which sounded righteous in their own ears but NOT consistent with what Jesus wanted.

Those traditions were so strong that they could not hear what Jesus wanted. For example, silent prayer? It's so contrary to the way we've always done it; "leading in prayer" for the benefit of others to hear and be encouraged. But it's still contrary to what Jesus actually said.

Public prayer is a tradition of men. There is no genuine need for it. If we are listening to other people's prayers then we are not thinking about our OWN prayers. And if we are all praying for the same thing anyway, there is no need for us to hear what the others are saying.

 

[Alithis]

Thanks for all the comments on this issue of prayer. I think it's important to remember why we are talking about this. It's not a thread on prayer. The OP mentioned Jesus' comments about "Lord, Lord" people. Jesus said;



The concern is that these people believe they are doing the right thing. They say "Lord, Lord". They probably do all kinds of "spiritual things". To the average person, these people probably look like model Christians. And yet Jesus still had a problem with them, not because they performed spiritual works, but because they performed the wrong spiritual works. They disregarded what he told them to do, in preference for their own expressions of spirituality.

Almost certainly they were performing actions which they thought made them look better in the eyes of others; traditions of men which sounded righteous in their own ears but NOT consistent with what Jesus wanted.

Those traditions were so strong that they could not hear what Jesus wanted. For example, silent prayer? It's so contrary to the way we've always done it; "leading in prayer" for the benefit of others to hear and be encouraged. But it's still contrary to what Jesus actually said.

Public prayer is a tradition of men. There is no genuine need for it. If we are listening to other people's prayers then we are not thinking about our OWN prayers. And if we are all praying for the same thing anyway, there is no need for us to hear what the others are saying.

The concern is that these people believe they are doing the right thing. They say "Lord, Lord". They probably do all kinds of "spiritual things". To the average person, these people probably look like model Christians. And yet Jesus still had a problem with them, not because they performed spiritual works, but because they performed the wrong spiritual works. They disregarded what he told them to do, in preference for their own expressions of spirituality....this part i Could not agree with more.
But in regard to gathering together specifically to pray there is a missing componant of that very same obedience to the holy spirit.we dont pray our will or our good idea ,we worship and wait on the lord and then pray as led by the holy spirit.this is not a public event nor is it of the flesh .there is an indefinable unity in the holy spirit that is simply not of this world where a room full of believers can become as one in the holy ghost .there is no showmanship and it is the lord himself who does the leading.we do the worshiping and the waiting until he leads.

 

[tremble]

But in regard to gathering together specifically to pray there is a missing componant of that very same obedience to the holy spirit.we dont pray our will or our good idea ,we worship and wait on the lord and then pray as led by the holy spirit.this is not a public event nor is it of the flesh .there is an indefinable unity in the holy spirit that is simply not of this world where a room full of believers can become as one in the holy ghost .there is no showmanship and it is the lord himself who does the leading.we do the worshiping and the waiting until he leads.

This all sounds very spiritual, but I can't see that it addresses what Jesus said. Here it is again;

MT 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

MT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The command is given in such a way that it implies people who pray for others to hear are hypocrites. It's almost certain the people back in Jesus' day also had good explanations for why they were not being hypocritical with their praying. Some of them were probably quite offended.

And yet, despite all the likely good explanations and arguments to carry on praying as they'd always done, Jesus still commanded that his followers should speak their prayers secretly for only God to hear.

However, even if we really DO have the discipline to choose the words of our prayer without a single care for what anyone may think of them, can we be sure the others with us are doing the same? If one person in the group allows not only their words, but they way they speak their words to be changed by what others may think of them then they are no longer praying only to God, and everyone participating in the prayer session is a part of that. Perhaps that is why Jesus made the rule for all of us.

If we want others to pray with us, discuss what to pray for ahead of time and then pray for it together silently. Agreement can be more than a spoken "amen". Considering this and what Jesus said, there is considerable reason to question the "heart motives" of why any of us would continue to push for others to hear us in the act of praying.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

who runs right past the big men with guns,
who runs right out in front of the big crowd of hundreds or thousands of people,
who runs right out in front of the active television cameras,
and
with great big wide open eyes set on one and with arms stretched up full way to him
cries out

......................... DADDY !!!!! ..................

not only not caring what anybody thinks,
but later when asked doesn't even remember anyone else being there ?


(printed for those who may become like little children and maybe receive permission to enter the kingdom of heaven).

 

[BryanW92]

who runs right past the big men with guns,
who runs right out in front of the big crowd of hundreds or thousands of people,
who runs right out in front of the active television cameras,
and
with great big wide open eyes set on one and with arms stretched up full way to him
cries out

......................... DADDY !!!!! ..................

not only not caring what anybody thinks,
but later when asked doesn't even remember anyone else being there ?


(printed for those who may become like little children and maybe receive permission to enter the kingdom of heaven).

Great analogy! I'm going to steal that one and use it.

 

[Alithis]

who runs right past the big men with guns,
who runs right out in front of the big crowd of hundreds or thousands of people,
who runs right out in front of the active television cameras,
and
with great big wide open eyes set on one and with arms stretched up full way to him
cries out

......................... DADDY !!!!! ..................

not only not caring what anybody thinks,
but later when asked doesn't even remember anyone else being there ?


(printed for those who may become like little children and maybe receive permission to enter the kingdom of heaven).

 

[pescador]

who runs right past the big men with guns,
who runs right out in front of the big crowd of hundreds or thousands of people,
who runs right out in front of the active television cameras,
and
with great big wide open eyes set on one and with arms stretched up full way to him
cries out

......................... DADDY !!!!! ..................

not only not caring what anybody thinks,
but later when asked doesn't even remember anyone else being there ?


(printed for those who may become like little children and maybe receive permission to enter the kingdom of heaven).

Although I can usually follow the content of most forum posts I have no idea what this is about. One thing I do know: it ain't scriptural.