You know we can all use the type of rhetoric which says we've told your side so many times we've lost count too....things like we're not buying the end result of how you're assessing things. Your doctrines on the surface don't say that God is the author of sin but when you weigh the many things you say it still comes out to the same thing. Any doctrine which says God is ordaining evil will be viewed by most of Christendom as saying God is the author of sin. Sorry but that won't change and there's no reason it should.
Sorry but that merely a strangely worded diversion. In order for something to be just there must be equal response for obedience or disobedience, rebellion or compliance. Just, justice and fairness are all synonymous terms. Scripture says God is no respecter of persons. Acts 10:34 It seems that you believe he is.
The KJV is incorrectly translated on exodus 7:13. The scriptures do not say that He (God) hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
Exodus 8:32 says Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, indicating that he had hardened his heart previously. God did not harden his heart until after pharaoh had repeatedly hardened his heart.
Exodus 8:32 says Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, indicating that he had hardened his heart previously. God did not harden his heart until after pharaoh had repeatedly hardened his heart.
Good Mornting ❤@corinth77777 @BNR32FAN
Romans 11:
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Note here Paul speaks of the people (referring back to Israelites) the ones He foreknew.
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Again, the elect whom He foreknew.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And there it is folks - the doctrine of election.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Again, the group of people who were descendants of Jacob (called Israel) contained both elect and non elect.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hearunto this day.
Here is "the rest that were blinded" even unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now God planned it this way! Because He is not a respecter of persons; He set it up that all the elect were not to be genetic descendants of Jacob.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Because of God's genius; He also set up that individual Jews would not be cut off from the possibility of being elect solely based on being a genetic descendant of Jacob. He's not a "respecter of persons" now favoring gentiles because the Jews rejected and crucified Christ.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Holy simply means "to be set apart". This isn't stating necessarily that what is "set apart" is sinless. This is the same "Be ye holy as I am holy." God is "set apart" and believers are to be set apart as God is set apart. Yet believers can not be sinless in this life, as God is sinless.
For if the first fruit be set apart, the lump is also set apart; and if the root be set apart, so are the branches.
Christ is the "first fruit" of the eternal Israel, but also humanly speaking of the earthy Israel, on account of the fact that God created Adam and Eve and Abraham (who the seed was promised to) was a descendent of Adam.
Christ's body came from the genetic descendants of Jacob. So this is how Jesus is not only connected to Israel as being the promised seed to Abraham; He is connected to the rest of humanity as a descendant of Eve.
So the "lump" (ultimately being humanity) is now open to the possibility of redemption because the 2nd person of the Godhead is now incarnated as one of us.
Pardon my sense of humor; had to throw this in here!
Eventually of "the lump" comes Abraham. The root that springs forth of him is Christ. All those connected to Christ on account of being human are the various types of branches.
Moses was the first person to have received, organized and written down the beginning of the Old Testament. God continued to reveal through that particular "lump of humanity" (Israel) the written revelation of God. Because Christ was born of Abraham's lineage, they are the "natural branches" connected to Him.
Now because Christ is set apart, so are the "natural branches". The natural branches were set apart because God promised to bring the Messiah through that lineage. So of course God is not going to totally cut off the natural branches because He promised to Abraham He would be a God to him and his children.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Note he describes the gentiles as a "wild olive tree". They are grafted in among the Jewish olive tree. Note Old Testament history; this has been happening ever since Abraham.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
The root (Christ) born of this Abrahamic lineage.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The Jews were not promised redemption based on being Jewish; so likewise the gentiles are not promised redemption based on being gentiles. And here is the warning. You may also be broken off if like the natural branches you fail to bear fruit.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
So a Jew who becomes a believer is grafted back into this lineage that is given all these promises that are fulfilled in Christ.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
So the gentile who has been cut out of his own tree and grafted into this lineage that is given all these promises in Christ.
Note though, the earthly lineage is symbolic of a greater spiritual lineage. And just as the natural lineage of Israel was displayed on earth as a people who were given the written revelation of Scripture; the same corporate symbolism is carried over to the church. Israel was called "the ecclesiastia in the wilderness". "Ecclesiastia" in the Greek is the word "church". The church, just as ancient Israel of old is tasked as the steward of the written revelation of God. Therefore anyone who comes into the corporate structure that is tasked with the stewardship of the written revelation of God is grafted into this olive tree.
This is where the concept of "covenant theology" comes from. The spiritual lineage that comes about as a result of Christ's atonement secures the spiritual promises that were made to Abraham. Namingly; I will be a God to you and your children.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
When all the gentiles who are to come in, are grafted into this corporate structure referred here as "the olive tree"; then "all of Israel" will be saved. Israel in this sense represents all who are in Christ; being the elect of the eternal covenant.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And here is the promise of this greater spiritual lineage of Israel. Both the eternal Israel as well as the eternal body of Christ are are found within this corporate structure called "the olive tree".
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Now the word "election" here is not the same word as we see "elect from the foundations of the world.
It's derived from two different words: "come from going to" and "speaking to a conclusion"
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as to the end point, coming forth from and going to the conclusion we are speaking of, they are beloved through the channel of the patriarchs.
So what does this mean?
The genetic descendants of Jacob who were alive at the writing of this epistle were persecuting the church. Thus "concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes."
Now the "end point" which is "coming forth and going to the conclusion we are speaking of" had to do with the dismantling of the Old Testament system because the Messiah had come on the scene. "When that which is perfect (the perfect sacrifice) comes; that which is in part (the entire ceremonial system including the animal sacrifices) is done away with."
Now because this was happening; many Jews eventually did come to believe Jesus was the Messiah and they were absorbed into the church as the Old Testament system was dismantled. That system ultimately being destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
Now these Jews, some of whom had not come to redemption yet, were still beloved for the sake of their fathers; those who'd received the promise of the greater spiritual lineage of Israel.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For the gifts and calling of God are not to be repented of.
We are not to change our minds of a Jewish brother coming into the church just because he once persecuted the church. Now this spoke very personally to Paul. Because he was exactly this!
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
You preach the gospel to them and should they repent and believe; you bring them into the church.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
And this word "all" is the same word "all" we've seen in several other passages addressed on this thread; the "every kind of" all.
For God has concluded every of the nations in unbelief that He might have mercy upon every of the nations.
If I be lifted up, I will draw all nations of men unto me"
...long suffering to all ya all, not willing that any of a certain one should perish but that men of all nations come to repentance.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Brilliant BOSS brilliant!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
And now that Romans 11 has eaten my brain!
I don't think you understand at all what I mean by corporate or collective. You become one of the group called "elect" by faith in Christ. The reason you have to make your calling and election sure-you have to check yourself to be sure you are truly in the faith. Anyone Paul calls elect was chosen by God for eternal life, and the condition for being chosen is to truly have faith. Of course, individuals become part of the elect, any group is made up of individuals, but what God has chosen from the beginning is that anyone who is "in Christ" becomes part of this group, usually called believers, but sometimes called "elect."
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"
Who is chosen? Those who are "in Christ". How does one come to be in Christ? By faith! John 3:16 applies to every human. All have the opportunity to be in Christ. The scope of the atonement is unlimited.
And you didn't answer my question about whether every real believer would become a Calvinist.
Good Mornting ❤
You said so much, that your brain has already conceived...lol with siminary language some, that one is worthy of reading several times.
I dont really know how to quote stuff...which would make it easier...when I have a question...I kind of skim through it yesterday when I realize it kept going...lol...But ...hopefully if I dont over burden you and myself i can do that....Tks for spending time explaining what you believe...
I don't know for sure if King James is wrong ...Because I would like to think....Because I like that version, and has shown me more than the others that its correct...so holding up that view..even I may be wrong....I liked the way the other fellow in the post...addressed something...and hopefully I got Him right..which is in my own words thatExodus 7:13 is rendered in King James the way it is because of the verb tense. Consecutive imperfect 3rd person masculine singular; when you have a Consecutive in the imperfect, it implies force. And since it's 3rd person and not 1st person, the force is coming from a source outside of Pharaoh.
King James also has Exodus 8:32 rendered as Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Though the verb tense in this verse is also Consecutive imperfect 3rd person masculine singular; it also has a definitive direct object marker which is in the accusative case. So this is why it's translated as Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The force exacted on Pharaoh's heart in this verse was self inflicted.
So you still have
God = 11
Pharaoh = 3
Not specified = 5
And your initial hardening of Pharaoh's heart is stated in Scripture to have been done by God.
I think I'm capable of understanding the doctrines... but so were millions of real Christians down through the ages that study the Bible intensely, and did not come to the conclusions that Calvin or Augustine did about irresistible grace etc. When you read some of the stuff they were debating about back in the day, our discussions now seem pretty shallow.And if they are capable of intellectually grasping these doctrines and reject them; that would be a big indication that they do not have genuine faith.
OK you are simply repeating your position - again.
I've given you plenty of Scripture that supports what I'm saying.
how do you think I should respond to this?
But isn't there a condition; that they walk in the Spirit?I never said it wasnt. You just don't understand what was predestined, that any one who is " in Christ" is destined for eternal life. It's not God choosing individuals for salvation.
Sometimes people say thing over and over....because one cannot understand using the box of doctrine or ideals they view from until...the box is broken down...so when the truth opens up an area where some Ideals escape one must repeat...what the other missed because they never truly heard....blocked by their own thinking..So what! You get to repeat your position but those who disagree with you don't?
Aren't these your words from one of your posts prior,
"I keep saying this over and over again"
So look if you get to reiterate your position multiple times SO DO WE! If we don't your double standard is obvious.
Sorry but at least on this subject and theme you've give FALSE interpretations of what the scriptures you use mean.
In regard to my prior post I don't know, that's your problem! Quite frankly with all due respect I couldn't care less if you responded to ANYTHING I say. You're at liberty to do as you please. If you want to respond than respond! If you don't want to than don't! That's how things work on a discussion board.
And if they are capable of intellectually grasping these doctrines and reject them; that would be a big indication that they do not have genuine faith.
Sometimes people say thing over and over....because one cannot understand using the box of doctrine or ideals they view from until...the box is broken down...so when the truth opens up an area where some Ideals escape one must repeat...what the other missed because they never truly heard....blocked by their own thinking..
Hey that sounds a bit like the concept of hardening the heart...
Yes, one must remain in Christ. We are recipients of eternal life as long as we are in him. Calvinist confuse this also, by claiming it's not possible to Fall away.But isn't there a condition; that they walk in the Spirit?
First is there a difference between eternal life, and life eternal.
And Can Christ be in you as the hope of Glory
But you need to be in Christ.
Since the kingdom begins now...wouldn't one say they must remain in His love now...which would give us the eternal quality of life, that then will extend to life eternal? Life that extends after physical death
I think I'm capable of understanding the doctrines... but so were millions of real Christians down through the ages that study the Bible intensely, and did not come to the conclusions that Calvin or Augustine did about irresistible grace etc. When you read some of the stuff they were debating about back in the day, our discussions now seem pretty shallow.
So what! You get to repeat your position but those who disagree with you don't?
Aren't these your words from one of your posts prior,
"I keep saying this over and over again"
So look if you get to reiterate your position multiple times SO DO WE! If we don't your double standard is obvious.
Sorry but at least on this subject and theme you've give FALSE interpretations of what the scriptures you use mean.
In regard to my prior post I don't know, that's your problem! Quite frankly with all due respect I couldn't care less if you responded to ANYTHING I say. You're at liberty to do as you please. If you want to respond than respond! If you don't want to than don't! That's how things work on a discussion board.
Try reading N T Wright's book, "Paul and the faithfulness of God". Deep stuff that will change the way you see Paul's writings. I got three quarters of the way through and put it down for a couple years and now I'm going back to it.Yes, I would agree with you here in regards to breath and depth of past theologians dissertations. The puritans are also a difficult bunch to read. They are almost like reading Shakespearian plays in their original form. I took a class on Shakespeare in college and I needed a dictionary just to read the plays, and I pretty much knew what the plays were about. That was an.... interesting class!
Yet you keep interacting with me? If you wish not to, than why respond? If what I say makes you so upset that you can't help yourself - you do have an ignore button wherewith you would not see anything I post.
Because the points you try to make can confuse readers and I like to endeavor to not see them led astray. But very strange how you tried to twist this totally around. It was you who was doing the complaining not I. You told me I had repeated myself and you asked me how you should respond!
So quite frankly your insult to me that I somehow can't show restraint as you said "can't help myself" I trust readers can see misses the mark. I don't need to restrain myself from answering your posts! Why? Because it's a message board!
So it only seems like a ploy by you to shut down input by those who disagree with you. But keep in mind too....IF YOU find MY posts upsetting YOU know where the ignore button is as well. You have stated I keep repeating myself over and over and that seemed to upset you. Well...do as you please.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?