• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured we are ALL PREDESTINED

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by lambofgod43985889, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    880
    +409
    Christian
    Married
    Oh and another fantastic book is : the pursuit of God by AW Tozer.
    I went to a church for 10 years that had a lot of calvinist thinking. If that didn't change my mind I doubt anybody on a message board will.
     
  2. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    Do you read a lot of NT Wright books? If you do; I have a better understanding now of where your non traditional protestant theological definitions are coming from.

    Wright's view on Paul twists justification by faith and invariably twists the concept of atonement; bringing into question whether or not Christ's atonement was penal substitution. Which explains why you don't see atonement as specific to individuals; those individuals being "the elect".

    Wright's theology becomes another form of Judization because he too is claiming the Jewish background of Paul took precedence over how the Holy Spirit actually penned the Scripture. I've had this type of discussion with many people who claim the Scripture needs to be interpreted through the cultural lens of 1st century Judaism. The Scripture doesn't say that though; it tells us to interpret it by comparing it to itself.
     
  3. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    So you're saying you came from a church background that was "calvinistic" to begin with and reading Wright and Tozer changed your mind?
     
  4. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    880
    +409
    Christian
    Married
    I have read a few but this is the most enlightning one. Paul's unique position as a former Pharisee helped give him the insight needed to understand what Jesus' death and Resurrection meant.
    But I have believed that about the scope of the atonement for my whole life, at least as soon as I was old enough to understand it... Being raised Wesleyan probably had something to do with that.
     
  5. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    880
    +409
    Christian
    Married
    No, kind of the other way around. I was Wesylan before I went to a Calvinist church, but it wasn't explicitly Calvinist. It was more subtly taught... Once I understood what was being taught, I started to question it which did not go over that well. I'm not going to that church now.
     
  6. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    But you're reading books?
     
  7. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    880
    +409
    Christian
    Married
    I have always read books. Sometimes I even read books by people I disagree with.
    I still attend a church if that's what you're asking.
     
  8. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,597
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    If I said Jame’s muscle was tightened the word appears to be in the imperfect 3rd person tense but that doesn’t mean that someone else tightened his muscle. The word “He” or “The Lord” referring to God is not present in exodus 7:13 so there is no indication that someone else hardened his heart. What you are saying is that God is responsible for Pharaoh’s sin and disobedience.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    Well, even if Exodus 7:13 was mistranslated; you still have 19 other instances in Exodus that say God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
     
  10. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

    +258
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Luke 14 King James Version (KJV)
    14 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

    YOu can believe what you wish- I will believe what Luke 14:1 says. This ends this discussion. It has ceased being profitable for anything.
     
  11. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    I understand why the King James translated that verse the way that they did and I don't think it's wrong. No translation is perfect; but I agree with you that King James is the best (and certainly the most recognized) of English translation. The reason I believe this, is because of what Greek text that King James was translated from.

    I don't know if you know any history behind the King James translation; but it's rather interesting. Here is a documentary about Bible translations and where they came from. Some of this I didn't know and some of it; I knew from research of other subjects.

     
  12. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    OK. I explained to you (in rather extensive detail) why I don't believe He actually went into the house.

    But - if you wish to end here. That's fine.
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +707
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    Did you end up going back to the Wesleyan church?

    And just out of curiosity; you said you'd gone to a calvinist church and had a bad experience there. Did you know much about the theology before you attended, or not?

    The reason I'm asking is because I remember in one of the posts, you'd made a comment to the effect of everyone being elect but you - or something of that nature? And it sounded like you felt hurt by the concept / people speaking of election? Did that start with this bad church experience? If it did; that would make some sense to me of your strong personal dislike of the doctrine.
     
  14. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    880
    +409
    Christian
    Married
    No, the church I currently attend is church of God. Very Evangelistic focus, and giving back to the community.
    I don't think I ever really knew there was arminians and Calvinists before going to that church. Once I understood that I had theological differences I started studying what each side believed, and not surprisingly, found I was pretty inline with arminians, although I don't believe in total sanctification, which supposedly Wesley did. I don't recall saying anything about every one being elected but me. I might have said something along the lines of " how arrogant would it be to believe I was elected, but my neighbor wasn't?"
    It wasn't the greatest church experience, but there were other reasons we moved on. Both my wife and I had our reasons for believing it was God's will for us to go elsewhere. And I still love the people of that church. I've been fortunate to have Christian friends of many types.
     
  15. corinth77777

    corinth77777 learner

    +357
    Christian
    Private
    It's funny how destined is coupled ......because God allows...and because He gives free will
     
  16. corinth77777

    corinth77777 learner

    +357
    Christian
    Private
    I started a post one day of what does it mean to be In Christ......and passage that comes to me as of now is the communion....what does it mean to eat his flesh and drink his blood or you shall not have no part with me?
    If any man be in Christ He is a new creation .

    It may be too possible that Christ is all one needs for their eternal destiny....
    Maybe that's what it means to barely escape the flames of fire....idk
    Because there are those who may have boldness to stand...yet some when He comes may not have boldness at all...what shall happen?
    I have a feeling that somewhere....maybe in the greek....there are terms like Both "eternal life and life eternal in the bible.....
    As there are holy ghost and holy spirit , kingdom of God and kingdom of heavens,
    JESUS Christ and Christ Jesus....the and Thou.... in and of.......Jacob and Israel
    Abram and abraham....etc

    Why, because even though one of the 2 means eternal life...the quality of life in this life.....that may be likely a facet of the Life eternal......or vise versa...I have to figure out where I can find scrip like that since I do not know Greek.

    Since eternal life scripturally means to know the only true God and Jesus whom He has sent....[dont quote me]
    And to know someone is part of the close relationship ....of doing what the other wants. Yes to share in ones life would mean to remain Into/in Them....[i like that]
     
  17. corinth77777

    corinth77777 learner

    +357
    Christian
    Private
    But here also is a question....that's a little awkward to my previous Baptist box...when it comes to justification...
    But before I asked.....I better note; we know the scripture says if you are in the light you should also walk....And there is a passage that tells them that he wants them to know what it is they have Eternal life....for he says somewhere I write these things so that you may know you have....eternal life...
    So here is the question.....what saves you now....in this course of life.....and what saves you after physical death...or alive at his coming?....is it eternal life or life eternal...
    Another words...is it Christ in you.....or you in Christ......?
     
  18. corinth77777

    corinth77777 learner

    +357
    Christian
    Private
    Another question....scrip says If I be lifted up I'll draw all men to myself.
    And as I'm thinking about it now..and this being a little tricky because of how its written in diff places about who raised Christ from the dead. Anyway what can that mean..
    For some reason I think of it as we are the body of Christ...maybe I see it as the literal body of Christ....and the people members that make up one body lift Him up by making His name great through obedience to the truth.
    Who now draws? The father or the son?
    Reminds me of a basketball game the way people cheer a team on...and the team members get pumped up.....so we got to get right ...our team the body. ..Just some thoughts...maybe there is one that can make this clearer for me.
    His name is made great in all the earth when we Cloth ourself with Christ. So let's. Cheer him on Saints....in this case men are on the cheer team too.....haha
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  19. corinth77777

    corinth77777 learner

    +357
    Christian
    Private
    Are you a scholar?
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,597
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No there’s not. There’s passages where God says I will harden his heart and only 2 passages that actually say that God hardened his heart. Where do you get 19 passages from?
     
Loading...