we are ALL PREDESTINED

The Righterzpen

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Yes I’m very aware of the Greek work Kosmos and there’s nothing in the definition that refers to God’s elect.

Agreed. I already explained that cosmos means the created universe. God gave His Son, not just for the elect but to free the rest of the creation from the consequence of our sin. This is what makes possible the recreation of this current heavens and earth into the new heavens and earth.

Which I'm happy about because i'm looking forward to seeing my pets on the new earth!

It’s in reference to the inhabitants of the world.

Then why did He not use the word "inhabits"; such as He did in the verse about Caesar and taxes?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Argue with Ephesians 1 over that:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Yes and in Ephesians 2 Paul explains that these Ephesians are children of God. Then in chapter 5:1-7 Paul warns these very same children of God of turning back to a sinful life which will result in them receiving the wrath of God in the sons of disobedience which will be they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn’t sound very reassuring to me.

Btw you put the emphasis in the wrong place.

According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Except the book of life was written from the foundation of the world. No where in the Scripture does it ever say anything about someone's name being added to the book of life.

Nothing in my quote suggests otherwise. God being omniscient and omnipresent has already foreseen everything we would ever do before creation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Which covenant? The Old Testament covenant or the New Testament covenant? Christians are not grafted into the Old Testament covenant. That does not make any sense.

We’re talking about Romans 11 and whether or not the branches believe. There’s nothing in Romans 11 about the Mosaic law. I didn’t see how this is even a question. The new covenant is the fulfillment of the prophecies in the old covenant. Of course we’re talking about the new covenant. I don’t understand how this is even a question. Honestly I think this is just another ploy to dodge the discussion. Kind of like when we were talking about whether or not a person could believe if they are not chosen by God and you replied talking about superficial belief which also was clearly not what we were discussing. It’s starting to seem like when you get backed into a corner you look for ways to avoid the topic we’re discussing.
 
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nolidad

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No, I don't think that would be accurate; it's still a "connective conjunction". Unless you don't want to believe the lexicon? But that's up to you. I recognize that not everything in a lexicon is accurate and not all lexicons are created equal.

Not according to Kittles 10 volume Greek NT. or Wuest. The only connection to the prior events is to say a new narrative has started. Do you think great crowds followed Jesus in to the pharisees house?

Inscriptions on buildings and things like that are all uncial form; Which makes sense for the medium "written" in; but there are examples of papyrus that have capital and small letters. Now what languages are they and what is the content of the document? I don't know there are a variety of them. Some of the letter size variation too, could have been the writing style of the particular scribe.

Well you can search a greek culture site and learn that most writings were either in all uncial or half and half. Demarcating to sentences and punctuation came after teh first century.

So, was the person with dropsy a dinner guest?

Luke 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.

3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;

If we keep to context, and understand what is going on with th epharisees towards Jesus of course he was a guest. He was there to trap Jesus.

Yet you honestly can't say you know how they interpreted what He said. The only thing you have is what post 1st century rabbis tell you was the interpretation. You don't know how the people who heard it understood it. We'll never know that! And in that sense, it doesn't matter. They aren't the ones reading and trying to translate it; we are.

I still stand on the principle that we are to use Scripture to interpret Scripture. The Scripture itself tells us to do that. And that makes sense seeing how it's written by God. It doesn't tell us to interpret it through the cultural lens of who wrote it. Which to try and do so is a vain endeavor because much of that information is lost to history.

And you can't either. And you can't say with honesty you are interpreting it correctly now! Jesus just said to hate all your relatives or you can't be His disiple and you have to add all sorts of verbage to get it to say more than what it simply says. Why do we always think we need to edit and correct Jesus when He made statements that are hard?????

Well according to the lexicon; it would disagree with you. The lexicon states the preference is made of a moral stance and that makes contextual sense with what everything else in the Scripture says. But again; if you don't want to believe the lexicon?

Well I don't know what lexicon you use, but the three I rely on (Vines, thayers and Blue letter Bible) do not talk about philosophical differences. They do say8 that it does mean to love less- which is exactly what I have been telling you for many poages now!

As for the verses you posted, is that a veiled accusation??
 
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BNR32FAN

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Agreed. I already explained that cosmos means the created universe. God gave His Son, not just for the elect but to free the rest of the creation from the consequence of our sin. This is what makes possible the recreation of this current heavens and earth into the new heavens and earth.

Which I'm happy about because i'm looking forward to seeing my pets on the new earth!



Then why did He not use the word "inhabits"; such as He did in the verse about Caesar and taxes?

Because the verse your referring to does not refer to all men on the earth but only a particular group of people.
 
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renniks

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17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

(Basically Pharaoh's purpose was to be destroyed. Just like all them people in the flood.)

This is nonsense. It all comes about because of your faulty theology being imposed on scripture. God, because he has foreknowledge, knows what we will do and makes his plans accordingly. Because God knew what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, he knew just what to do to free his people and to evangelize Pharaoh and the Egyptians with a display of his power. When you read the Word believing that God does everything through forcing people to do it, you come to some very strange conclusions. Pharaoh was appointed to a job because God knew Pharaoh. It doesn't mean Pharaoh didn't have the same choices and the same chance at salvation as anyone, in fact he was treated to a rare display of who the real God is, that should have led to him worshiping Jehovah instead of the multitude of false Gods the Egyptians worshiped. Free will is not absolute and no one is saying it is. We all have a lot of things we don't get to choose. Where we are born, what we look like, the fact that we are born at all, and on and on, but we also have a ton of real choices within the circumstances God places us in, and some of those choices help determine our ultimate destiny.
 
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The Righterzpen

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@corinth77777 @BNR32FAN

Romans 11:


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Note here Paul speaks of the people (referring back to Israelites) the ones He foreknew.

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


Again, the elect whom He foreknew.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And there it is folks - the doctrine of election.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Again, the group of people who were descendants of Jacob (called Israel) contained both elect and non elect.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Here is "the rest that were blinded" even unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now God planned it this way! Because He is not a respecter of persons; He set it up that all the elect were not to be genetic descendants of Jacob.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Because of God's genius; He also set up that individual Jews would not be cut off from the possibility of being elect solely based on being a genetic descendant of Jacob. He's not a "respecter of persons" now favoring gentiles because the Jews rejected and crucified Christ.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Holy simply means "to be set apart". This isn't stating necessarily that what is "set apart" is sinless. This is the same "Be ye holy as I am holy." God is "set apart" and believers are to be set apart as God is set apart. Yet believers can not be sinless in this life, as God is sinless.

For if the first fruit be set apart, the lump is also set apart; and if the root be set apart, so are the branches.

Christ is the "first fruit" of the eternal Israel, but also humanly speaking of the earthy Israel, on account of the fact that God created Adam and Eve and Abraham (who the seed was promised to) was a descendent of Adam.

Christ's body came from the genetic descendants of Jacob. So this is how Jesus is not only connected to Israel as being the promised seed to Abraham; He is connected to the rest of humanity as a descendant of Eve.


So the "lump" (ultimately being humanity) is now open to the possibility of redemption because the 2nd person of the Godhead is now incarnated as one of us.

Pardon my sense of humor; had to throw this in here!

Eventually of "the lump" comes Abraham. The root that springs forth of him is Christ. All those connected to Christ on account of being human are the various types of branches.

Moses was the first person to have received, organized and written down the beginning of the Old Testament. God continued to reveal through that particular "lump of humanity" (Israel) the written revelation of God. Because Christ was born of Abraham's lineage, they are the "natural branches" connected to Him.

Now because Christ is set apart, so are the "natural branches". The natural branches were set apart because God promised to bring the Messiah through that lineage. So of course God is not going to totally cut off the natural branches because He promised to Abraham He would be a God to him and his children.


17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Note he describes the gentiles as a "wild olive tree". They are grafted in among the Jewish olive tree. Note Old Testament history; this has been happening ever since Abraham.

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

The root (Christ) born of this Abrahamic lineage.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:


21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The Jews were not promised redemption based on being Jewish; so likewise the gentiles are not promised redemption based on being gentiles. And here is the warning. You may also be broken off if like the natural branches you fail to bear fruit.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

So a Jew who becomes a believer is grafted back into this lineage that is given all these promises that are fulfilled in Christ.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

So the gentile who has been cut out of his own tree and grafted into this lineage that is given all these promises in Christ.

Note though, the earthly lineage is symbolic of a greater spiritual lineage. And just as the natural lineage of Israel was displayed on earth as a people who were given the written revelation of Scripture; the same corporate symbolism is carried over to the church. Israel was called "the ecclesiastia in the wilderness". "Ecclesiastia" in the Greek is the word "church". The church, just as ancient Israel of old is tasked as the steward of the written revelation of God. Therefore anyone who comes into the corporate structure that is tasked with the stewardship of the written revelation of God is grafted into this olive tree.

This is where the concept of "covenant theology" comes from. The spiritual lineage that comes about as a result of Christ's atonement secures the spiritual promises that were made to Abraham. Namingly; I will be a God to you and your children.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When all the gentiles who are to come in, are grafted into this corporate structure referred here as "the olive tree"; then "all of Israel" will be saved. Israel in this sense represents all who are in Christ; being the elect of the eternal covenant.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And here is the promise of this greater spiritual lineage of Israel. Both the eternal Israel as well as the eternal body of Christ are are found within this corporate structure called "the olive tree".

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Now the word "election" here is not the same word as we see "elect from the foundations of the world.

It's derived from two different words: "come from going to" and "speaking to a conclusion"


As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as to the end point, coming forth from and going to the conclusion we are speaking of, they are beloved through the channel of the patriarchs.

So what does this mean?

The genetic descendants of Jacob who were alive at the writing of this epistle were persecuting the church. Thus "concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes."

Now the "end point" which is "coming forth and going to the conclusion we are speaking of" had to do with the dismantling of the Old Testament system because the Messiah had come on the scene. "When that which is perfect (the perfect sacrifice) comes; that which is in part (the entire ceremonial system including the animal sacrifices) is done away with."

Now because this was happening; many Jews eventually did come to believe Jesus was the Messiah and they were absorbed into the church as the Old Testament system was dismantled. That system ultimately being destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

Now these Jews, some of whom had not come to redemption yet, were still beloved for the sake of their fathers; those who'd received the promise of the greater spiritual lineage of Israel.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For the gifts and calling of God are not to be repented of.


We are not to change our minds of a Jewish brother coming into the church just because he once persecuted the church. Now this spoke very personally to Paul. Because he was exactly this!

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

You preach the gospel to them and should they repent and believe; you bring them into the church.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And this word "all" is the same word "all" we've seen in several other passages addressed on this thread; the "every kind of" all.

For God has concluded every of the nations in unbelief that He might have mercy upon every of the nations.

If I be lifted up, I will draw all nations of men unto me"

...long suffering to all ya all, not willing that any of a certain one should perish but that men of all nations come to repentance.


33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Brilliant BOSS brilliant!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

And now that Romans 11 has eaten my brain!
 
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The Righterzpen

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Because the verse your referring to does not refer to all men on the earth but only a particular group of people.

"For God so loved all the inhabitants that He gave His only begotten son...."

John 3:16 doesn't say that though; It says "God so loved the cosmos..." The writers of the New Testament, if they'd meant to convey universal atonement they could have just as easily used the word "inhabitants". They didn't though. They used the word cosmos.

Like wise "A decree went out from Augustus Caesar that all the cosmos be taxed" would not make sense either.
 
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renniks

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Ezekiel 37:
The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

If you accept Jesus, you will live! Wait a minute, that isn't what he said?

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

This is a parable, mainly about Israel being restored. It says nothing about whether there are conditions that must be met before the dry bones can be restored to life. There are many theories about just what the parable is supposed to mean, but the future bodily resurrection of every believer who has ever died is one theory. I'm not sure what you think it refers to?

1 Thess 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
 
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The Righterzpen

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This is nonsense. It all comes about because of your faulty theology being imposed on scripture. God, because he has foreknowledge, knows what we will do and makes his plans accordingly.

You can't get away from Scripture!

Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Now does verse 2 say God changes His plans according to what we do?

Because God knew what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, he knew just what to do to free his people and to evangelize Pharaoh and the Egyptians with a display of his power.

Except no where in the Scripture does it say Moses confronted Pharaoh with the intent of evangelizing him.

Exodus 4:
20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Dat's some evangelical tool there Lord!

When you read the Word believing that God does everything through forcing people to do it, you come to some very strange conclusions.

I keep saying this over and over again; no one has ever said God forces people to sin. I wouldn't even say He forces anyone to believe.

When the Holy Ghost cuts the spiritual lights on? It's a new world!

Pharaoh was appointed to a job because God knew Pharaoh. It doesn't mean Pharaoh didn't have the same choices and the same chance at salvation as anyone, in fact he was treated to a rare display of who the real God is,

He sure was "treated to a rare display of who the real God is"!

:swoon::swoon::swoon:

Dude; you not helping your cause here!

Free will is not absolute and no one is saying it is. We all have a lot of things we don't get to choose.

And why should the what, where and how of salvation be one of them?

but we also have a ton of real choices within the circumstances God places us in,

And I've never denied that humans (as well as other animals) are capable of making choices that are independent of the desires and will of other entities; God included. We can change our minds and make a million different decisions on a million different things; and God being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent works within that framework in "real time" in ways we don't understand.

And this is why sinners incurring of wrath is not forced by God. He does not cause men to sin. We freely do that of our own wills.

I know you kick against this with all your might because you don't want to be not in control of your destiny.

So these conversations will have one of two outcomes:

Either you are elect and will repent and come to trust and understand the truth; or this thread (along with how many other conversations you may have had, or ever will have concerning this subject) will be accounted to you on Judgement Day.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I'm not sure what you think it refers to?

Ezekiel 37 refers to the army of God's elect raised from spiritual death.

"For low i come in the volume of the book; it is written of Me to do Your will."

The entire Bible in one way or another is about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. It's all about redemption.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Exodus 4:
20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.


Dat's some evangelical tool there Lord!

“Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭8:15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭8:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭8:32‬ ‭NASB

“But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭9:34‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, then finally God hardened his heart.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Do you think great crowds followed Jesus in to the pharisees house?

I don't believe Jesus actually went into the pharisee's house. I know you do, so I guess we just part company on that opinion in regards to this text.

Well you can search a greek culture site and learn that most writings were either in all uncial or half and half. Demarcating to sentences and punctuation came after teh first century.

Not sure what you mean by "demarcating to sentence"? There are examples of spaces left to indicate the end of a sentence, as well as examples in papyrus writings of what appear to be capital letters. But like I mentioned before; that might have just been an artifact of the writing style of the particular scribe who wrote the examples I looked at. I know the Masoretic text has spacings to indicate the ends of sentences. And that's at least 2500 years old.

If we keep to context, and understand what is going on with th epharisees towards Jesus of course he was a guest. He was there to trap Jesus.

Except Jesus was the one who initiated the interaction, so that doesn't seem to jive either.

I know there are other places in the Scripture where people were "plants" so to speak. Mary (Martha and Lazarus's sister) who cried all over Jesus's feet was likely related to the pharisee who's house Jesus was at. She was likely, what we'd call today a trafficked individual. And you get a sense when you examine the text that this pharisee obviously knew her.

I didn't get that sense about the guy with dropsy; but I didn't examine each word of the verse either.

And you can't say with honesty you are interpreting it correctly now!

Scripture tells us to interpret it by using itself. So that's what I endeavor to do. I take a word and look at it in every place it's used and try and get a general idea of what it means in every context it's used.

Then I look at the concordance to see if this word is made up of other words and trace it all the way back to the root to try and work it forward that it makes sense both in context of the passage I'm looking at, as well as total context of the entire Bible.

Then at that point, I look at lexicons and see what they say.

Well I don't know what lexicon you use,

Well the reference I gave you came off of Biblehub and it was in the section "Helps Word Studies" which doesn't appear to be a lexicon per say; but more a comparative of word usages. Biblehub and Blue Letter both have Thayer's lexicon.

I also have a "The Complete Word Study Series" volumes edited by Zodhiates which has a dictionary too.

3404 miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparative basis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone (something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).

[Note the comparative meaning of 3404(miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

That (above) seems to me to make the most contextual sense of the "hate your father, mother, life" passage.

The verses I quoted you of the; "beware of those of the circumcision...." were not at you personally, but at where ever it came from that makes you believe you need to interpret Scripture through a specific cultural understanding.

You seem quite persuaded that is the correct way to understand the Bible. But when the Bible tells us to compare Scripture with Scripture; following a specific cultural understanding can lead one astray.

Now I don't disagree that understanding the culture and the historical context can bring insight to the text; but we have to realize, the Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit, not a "culture". And so that's why I throw that idea out and I study the Scripture by using itself.
 
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renniks

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3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Now does verse 2 say God changes His plans according to what we do?
Chosen us ( those who will believe, collectively) to be holy and without blame. Why did God choose for there to be such a group of people?
Either you are elect and will repent and come to trust and understand the truth; or this thread (along with how many other conversations you may have had, or ever will have concerning this subject) will be accounted to you on Judgement Day.
Are you seriously trying to say that every real believer will come to believe Calvinism is the truth?
 
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The Righterzpen

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Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart, then finally God hardened his heart.

And folks, right out of the gate we have God hardening Pharaoh's heart!

Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Exodus 7:22
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:7
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:12
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 9:34
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Exodus 9:35
And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the Lordhad spoken by Moses.

Exodus 10:1
And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

Exodus 14:17
And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

God = 11
Pharaoh = 3
Not specified = 5
 
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Chosen us ( those who will believe, collectively) to be holy and without blame. Why did God choose for there to be such a group of people?

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Paul makes a personal statement about being elect.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If election is a collective thing; why are believers told to make theirs sure?

2 John 1:1
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

Another statement about individual election.

2 John 1:13
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Another statement about individual election.

Are you seriously trying to say that every real believer will come to believe Calvinism is the truth?

I run into 4 types of people concerning this subject.

1. Mostly people who are developmentally disabled fall in this category.
"God exists. Jesus is the Messiah and I pray to Him." That's usually about the extent of their Bible knowledge. Sometimes they can talk about Moses, Noah, Adam and Eve, Jesus. All those types of main subjects. They don't have the capacity to understand anything more complex that that. Some of these people have quite solid faith; despite their lack of capacity to grasp. And that's always something that makes me rejoice. We're not saved by what we know.

On the flip side: I also run into people who claim to be Christians, have no Bible knowledge at all and no desire to obtain it. And there's nothing wrong with them intellectually. Those kinds of people I don't believe are genuinely saved.

2. People who have an adequate amount of Bible knowledge but don't know a whole lot of doctrine. If I talk to them about election; I may get the response of: "Oh, interesting? I don't know?" Or I get. "I'll have to look that up." usually followed by "I really should study more." And those people, like category #1 If they show trust in God; I'm encouraged. Again we aren't saved by what we know.

On the flip side: I've seen: "No, I don't believe that." and they don't even want to look at the Bible passages. So, I'd question if those people are genuinely saved too.

3. People who know the Bible, know the doctrines and believe in the doctrines of Grace. If they display genuine trust in God; then I'd say that from all I could tell; they are redeemed.

If they are bitter and hostile toward God, or if they are hostile toward other believers for no real reason; then I question if they are genuinely saved. There was one woman at the last church I attended who was just mean and arrogant to me and a couple of other people (including the developmentally disabled folks) because she just believed she was above all the rest of us. She was really nice to the people she felt were her social / economic equals though. I don't believe she is genuinely saved.

On the flip side of this: I've seen people who are doubtful about election, but they keep studying and come to the conclusion: "Yep, it's true." Sometimes it takes years for them to get to that point; but they get there. My cousin's husband was like that; but even when he was doubtful, appeared to me to display genuine trust.

Somewhere between categories 2 and 3; I see people who are genuinely struggling with serious sin. They are trying to overcome things like inappropriate content, alcohol or drug addictions. I've seen my fair share of recovering homosexuals in this category. If they persevere and grow in trust; they usually come out of the other side of it with quite solid faith, wisdom and a good amount "horse sense".

4. These are people who know the doctrines; know about election. They usually know the terminology too; yet have fixed ideas in their heads as to what it means and are of various degrees of hostility. Usually from moderate to severe. Those people I question if they are genuinely saved. They might be elect? Time will tell if they turn around.

Others with various doctrinal issues usually fall into this category too. They are usually "law keepers" of some flavor or another; or some other type of works gospel. They are usually difficult to get along with; but not always.

Lastly are people totally outside the faith. They may be Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jewish, Muslims, humanists or even atheists. Some of these people are "good neighbor" type folks and are generally likable and easy to get along with in generic, secular type settings. I'll talk to these people about the gospel if they ask and sometimes they do.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes and in Ephesians 2 Paul explains that these Ephesians are children of God. Then in chapter 5:1-7 Paul warns these very same children of God of turning back to a sinful life which will result in them receiving the wrath of God in the sons of disobedience which will be they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn’t sound very reassuring to me.

Ephesians 5:
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

I think you need to read a little more carefully. He's not accusing these people of doing any of this stuff. Nor is he saying they are in danger of losing their salvation.

He is saying to stay away from people who would cause you to sin; because you at one point walked in that darkness and I think Paul is acknowledging the fact that ones past can sneak up and bite them when they least expect it; so walk circumspectly.

This is akin to the advice people get in groups like AA to stay away from alcoholics that are still active because that environment can trip you up. This is not the Corinthian church where there was serious unrepentant sin.

You're trying to make the text say more than it is.

Btw you put the emphasis in the wrong place.

According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Well, the problem is that what you are alleging; "....that we should be holy..." and that isn't what the Greek actually says.

OK Here's the Greek:

2531 [e]
καθὼς
just as
Adv

1586 [e]
ἐξελέξατο
He chose ------ elected
V-AIM-3S

1473 [e]
ἡμᾶς
us
PPro-A1P

1722 [e]
ἐν
in
Prep

846 [e]
αὐτῷ
Him
PPro-DM3S

4253 [e
πρὸ
before
Prep

2602 [e]
καταβολῆς
[the] foundation
N-GFS

2889 [e]
κόσμου ,
of [the] world ............ of the cosmos
N-GMS

1510 [e]
εἶναι
to be ---------------- This is literally "I exist / I am"
V-PNA

1473 [e]
ἡμᾶς
for us ..................... This is literally "I"
PPro-A1P

"...... to exist I am, I" Remember when Moses asked God what should I tell the people when they ask who sent me. God's response was "I am that I am". That is a variant of that.

40 [e]
ἁγίους
holy
Adj-AMP

Just as He has elected us in Him before the foundation of the world; the I exist, I (am) holy and without blame before Him in love.

Or ".....before the foundation of the world to be for us holy.... " is a good translation that makes better sense in English.

Nothing in my quote suggests otherwise. God being omniscient and omnipresent has already foreseen everything we would ever do before creation.

Well the verse I just quoted, negates your idea here. "...before the foundations of the world to be for us holy...." would not mean that He looked down the corridors of time to foresee that you would exercise faith.

Especially when you add on top of this the verses that say faith is bestowed on someone from God. It doesn't fly.

There’s nothing in Romans 11 about the Mosaic law.

Paul is talking about the Israelites being cut off. If they are the "natural branches"; how does that not apply to the Old Testament? Or at least to apply to them as the nation tasked to keep the Old Testament.

The new covenant is the fulfillment of the prophecies in the old covenant. Of course we’re talking about the new covenant.

Who are the "natural branches" of the new covenant then? He's talking about Jews being cut off an olive tree. If that olive tree is the new covenant; Jews don't become part of the new covenant until they believe. So if they believe and they are part of the new covenant, why would they be cut off. That doesn't make any sense.

I don’t understand how this is even a question. Honestly I think this is just another ploy to dodge the discussion.

LOL

Kind of like when we were talking about whether or not a person could believe if they are not chosen by God and you replied talking about superficial belief which also was clearly not what we were discussing.

One can not believe unto redemption if they are not elect. One can have a superficial belief and claim to believe but not have redemptive faith. They can have an intellectual ascent to the concept of salvation and that Jesus is the Messiah; but if they don't genuinely trust God, they aren't saved; and only the elect genuinely trust God.

That is the main theme of what we've been discussing on this entire tread and no matter how you slice the questions; I keep giving you the same answers. I'm not dodging the questions; you're dodging the answers.

It’s starting to seem like when you get backed into a corner you look for ways to avoid the topic we’re discussing.

I have been very clear on my answers. The real issue is that you don't like the answers; so you try and come up with a different way of wording the same argument and you keep getting the same answers. Your trying to trip me up and you can't; so now your accusing me of dodging the issues.
 
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Bobber

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No, they predestine themselves to the lake of fire because of their disobedience. I have told you so many times now; that I've lost count. God is NOT the author of sin! He DID NOT cause them to sin. They did that OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

You know we can all use the type of rhetoric which says we've told your side so many times we've lost count too....things like we're not buying the end result of how you're assessing things. Your doctrines on the surface don't say that God is the author of sin but when you weigh the many things you say it still comes out to the same thing. Any doctrine which says God is ordaining evil will be viewed by most of Christendom as saying God is the author of sin. Sorry but that won't change and there's no reason it should.

BUT IF WE ALL GOT WHAT WAS FAIR - WE'D ALL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE! WE ALL DESERVE TO BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Sorry but that merely a strangely worded diversion. In order for something to be just there must be equal response for obedience or disobedience, rebellion or compliance. Just, justice and fairness are all synonymous terms. Scripture says God is no respecter of persons. Acts 10:34 It seems that you believe he is.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And folks, right out of the gate we have God hardening Pharaoh's heart!

Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Exodus 7:22
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:7
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened,and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:12
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

The KJV is incorrectly translated on exodus 7:13. The scriptures do not say that He (God) hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Exodus 7:13 Lexicon: Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:32 says Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, indicating that he had hardened his heart previously. God did not harden his heart until after pharaoh had repeatedly hardened his heart.
 
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renniks

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Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Paul makes a personal statement about being elect.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If election is a collective thing; why are believers told to make theirs sure?

2 John 1:1
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

Another statement about individual election.

2 John 1:13
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Another statement about individual election.
I don't think you understand at all what I mean by corporate or collective. You become one of the group called "elect" by faith in Christ. The reason you have to make your calling and election sure-you have to check yourself to be sure you are truly in the faith. Anyone Paul calls elect was chosen by God for eternal life, and the condition for being chosen is to truly have faith. Of course, individuals become part of the elect, any group is made up of individuals, but what God has chosen from the beginning is that anyone who is "in Christ" becomes part of this group, usually called believers, but sometimes called "elect."

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"

Who is chosen? Those who are "in Christ". How does one come to be in Christ? By faith! John 3:16 applies to every human. All have the opportunity to be in Christ. The scope of the atonement is unlimited.

And you didn't answer my question about whether every real believer would become a Calvinist.
 
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