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we are ALL PREDESTINED
- Thread starter lambofgod43985889
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Deleted! I got stressed by entering this discussion, decided to stay away. And not only that, I need study this more.
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ajcarey
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Yes you got it right in the first half: "The Bible never speaks about God choosing individuals ... What God chose before the foundation of the world was His gracious and appropriate plan to send His Son to redeem sinners to Himself and restore them to His image". However, I cannot quite agree that "All who meet the conditions to partake in this plan are chosen (i.e. elect) ..."
If we interpret Bible in context, God did not choose individuals to redeem, as some people erroneously claimed. Ephesians chapter 1,2,3 explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone. God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him. Predestination is so misunderstood because people are so awed by words such as "He predestine us" and fail to see context.
Ephesians was written to Gentile Christians. Speaking as a Jew, Paul identified with his people by using the adverb 'we' and 'us' to say how God first chose the Jews:
[Eph 1:4-11] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13).. Weren't the Jews the first to hope in Jesus?
Then when referring to the Gentiles, the apostle used the adverb "you" and "you who were Gentiles":
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth …... Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and “uncircumcised” ….. excluded from citizenship in Israel… (Eph 2:13) ..... For He... has made the two groups one... His purpose was... in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… (3:18)... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ."
Before Jesus atonement, the Gentiles did not have access to Jehovah. But after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. This move has been pre-planned or predestined by God. Predestination just means to pre-plan something. More important is what did God pre-plan?
We know that initially Israel was the chosen people of God. After Christ's atonement, the apostles initially thought that God chose to save the Jews only. After Peter's vision, however, the Gentiles were allowed to believe too. But as more Gentile Christians started to outnumber the Jewish believers, the Jews resented it and insisted that Gentiles should observe Sabbath and circumcision. Jews also claimed that God had suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus, implying that Gentiles were less favored. Refuting such allegation, Paul said that God does not show favoritism between the circumcised and uncircumcised [Galatians 2:6].
In Ephesians, the apostle refers to Gentiles as the Elect [Eph 1], thus placing them on equal footing as the Jews (who are chosen). Elect or chosen is a status, it does not mean being chosen to be saved individually.
In the beginning -- before the foundation of earth -- God chose the Jews, but now the Gentiles are also part of the Elect. "Before the foundation of the earth" just means "initially". It is unfortunate that some people are so awed by the words "before foundation of the earth" and "predestination" because they do not interpret in context.
In Romans 9:11, God said He loves Jacob and hate Esau. God was referring to these 2 persons only, specifically, so how does this extend to chosen - and not being chosen - of everyone else? How does Romans 9:11 become a blanket statement ??? Seriously.
In Romans, Paul as a Jew saluted Israel's heritage, but he went on to say the new order is here, things have changed, get used to it.
Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " While the Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul said that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does NOT mean that God has mercy on some particular individuals and choose them. In the larger context of the Scripture, each one has to decide to repent and turn to God.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... He who predestined, He also justifies" [Romans 8:29] means that God foreknew that He would offer redemption to the Gentiles. Although they used to be considered uncleaned by the Jews, however, after Christ's atonement, the Gentiles can choose to be conformed to Christ. They are also justified by faith in Jesus.
Also, take note that Jesus during his ministry never spoke about God chose individuals to be redeemed.
When seen in context, Scripture interprets Scripture well, by itself.
Yes you got it right in the first half: "The Bible never speaks about God choosing individuals ... What God chose before the foundation of the world was His gracious and appropriate plan to send His Son to redeem sinners to Himself and restore them to His image". However, I cannot quite agree that "All who meet the conditions to partake in this plan are chosen (i.e. elect) ..."
If we interpret Bible in context, God did not choose individuals to redeem, as some people erroneously claimed. Ephesians chapter 1,2,3 explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone. God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him. Predestination is so misunderstood because people are so awed by words such as "He predestine us" and fail to see context.
Ephesians was written to Gentile Christians. Speaking as a Jew, Paul identified with his people by using the adverb 'we' and 'us' to say how God first chose the Jews:
[Eph 1:4-11] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13).. Weren't the Jews the first to hope in Jesus?
Then when referring to the Gentiles, the apostle used the adverb "you" and "you who were Gentiles":
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth …... Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and “uncircumcised” ….. excluded from citizenship in Israel… (Eph 2:13) ..... For He... has made the two groups one... His purpose was... in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… (3:18)... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ."
Before Jesus atonement, the Gentiles did not have access to Jehovah. But after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. This move has been pre-planned or predestined by God. Predestination just means to pre-plan something. More important is what did God pre-plan?
We know that initially Israel was the chosen people of God. After Christ's atonement, the apostles initially thought that God chose to save the Jews only. After Peter's vision, however, the Gentiles were allowed to believe too. But as more Gentile Christians started to outnumber the Jewish believers, the Jews resented it and insisted that Gentiles should observe Sabbath and circumcision. Jews also claimed that God had suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus, implying that Gentiles were less favored. Refuting such allegation, Paul said that God does not show favoritism between the circumcised and uncircumcised [Galatians 2:6].
In Ephesians, the apostle refers to Gentiles as the Elect [Eph 1], thus placing them on equal footing as the Jews (who are chosen). Elect or chosen is a status, it does not mean being chosen to be saved individually.
In the beginning -- before the foundation of earth -- God chose the Jews, but now the Gentiles are also part of the Elect. "Before the foundation of the earth" just means "initially". It is unfortunate that some people are so awed by the words "before foundation of the earth" and "predestination" because they do not interpret in context.
In Romans 9:11, God said He loves Jacob and hate Esau. God was referring to these 2 persons only, specifically, so how does this extend to chosen - and not being chosen - of everyone else? How does Romans 9:11 become a blanket statement ??? Seriously.
In Romans, Paul as a Jew saluted Israel's heritage, but he went on to say the new order is here, things have changed, get used to it.
Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " While the Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul said that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does NOT mean that God has mercy on some particular individuals and choose them. In the larger context of the Scripture, each one has to decide to repent and turn to God.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... He who predestined, He also justifies" [Romans 8:29] means that God foreknew that He would offer redemption to the Gentiles. Although they used to be considered uncleaned by the Jews, however, after Christ's atonement, the Gentiles can choose to be conformed to Christ. They are also justified by faith in Jesus.
Also, take note that Jesus during his ministry never spoke about God chose individuals to be redeemed.
When seen in context, Scripture interprets Scripture well, by itself.
I believe you have much good understanding related to this matter. Maybe you were already implying this, but it should be noted that there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile at all (at least) before God called Abraham and gave him circumcision, nor was circumcision (and hence Judaism) binding on man in general until the Mosaic Covenant was established. And even then, gentiles could yet be saved by submitting to Judaism, which was how faith in the true God was expressed under the Mosaic covenant. Ruth and Rahab came into this covenant and multitudes of gentiles became Jews in the times of Daniel and Esther. Israel as a nation as a whole was never corporately in God's grace in terms of every individually being justified before Him (and Paul emphasizes that in Romans 9 to show that being of the physical seed of Abraham never in itself saved anyone); nor was every gentile a lost unbeliever when Israel was a nation. Depending on the context of the statement, election can refer to a national or otherwise corporate calling; and it can refer to an individual partaking in a corporate calling. For you or I as individuals to meet the terms of God's calling we have to be Jews inwardly who worship God in spirit and in truth (Romans 2:28-29), though under the New Covenant after Cornelius and the Acts 15 council we need not become Jews outwardly and submit to circumcision and the whole package of Mosaic rituals. You said it well when you said "God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him." I agree. Romans 8:28 shows that the children of promise are individuals who have entered into a corporate call by doing as you've said; thus they have submitted to the terms of being part of the corporate entity which is destined (i.e. appointed and travelling towards) to glory.
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