Water into Wine.

[DiscipleDave]

So, you are saying that God is actively and intentionally trying to deceive us. He's making us make a choice - "choose between my words or what you see with your own eyes".

This certainly isn't the idea of God I get by reading the Bible. Romans 1:20 above is certainly a good example of this. I think you're limiting God by keeping His word, and His creation, in a perspective you can get your mind around. Both are greater than all of us.

Jn:7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

i need say no more.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[crawfish]

Does the Bible clearly say God made the Earth in 6 days, Yes or No ?????? Do you believe He did or didn't ?

Does not the Bible clearly say that to God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day? Taken absolutely literally, creation could have been 6 days, 6000 years, or 518.4 seconds.

 

[crawfish]

Jn:7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

i need say no more.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

I'm a bit confused...which are we not to judge on mere appearances, the world or the bible? What if making the "right judgement" means that you need to reevaluate your understanding of His word so it doesn't mean what God didn't intend?

Of course, if you take that passage in context it has an ENTIRELY different meaning.

 

[Melethiel]

strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Here is the Truth, and even your science teaches this, There was more oxygen in the air prior to 4000 years ago,

Yes, this is true. The sudden explosion of O2 caused by photosynthesizing organisms caused massive extinctions and lots of evolution before the atmosphere stabilized to the current level of 21%.

To this you disagreed, by saying how would that make people live longer, i then told you the benefits of oxygen, that is what is used in hospitals when a person is having breathing difficulties, this statement was then blown way out of purportion. Tell me then, Why does a doctor or nurse have someone put on oxygen? This very reason that they are, is what i was making an attempt to tell you, IT IS HEALTHY.

No, not because IT IS HEALTHY. Because (off the top of my head) the different concentration of O2 from normal will adjust the concentration gradient and help facilitate respiration. Note that this is only done on people with breathing difficulties, not just anybody. Which is why it is exactly comparable to the use of drugs - useful in some cases, harmful in others.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I already have. I do not feel like repeating myself. Here is a brief recap:

1. Putting a person with breathing difficulties on O2 is producing a temporary solution, if not a cure. The same argument can be made for various drugs, which while helpful in certain cases, are deadly in others. As such, this statement is completely irrelevant to the question, which is "Why would a higher atmospheric O2 concentration cause people to live longer?"
2. Oxygen is in fact quite toxic. A higher O2 concentration would cause many problems, not make people healthier.

This is only two things, which if you want to be technical, as you are so doing, the second can be part of the first, where then is the many problems that you have seen in my innocent statment of:

When a person goes to the hospital with breathing difficulties, what is the first thing they do? They give them a mask so they breath pure oxygen. If then the all the air we breath was pure oxygen, we would be healthier, therefore would live longer.

Tell me, is the oxygen given to people in hospitals equal to the oxygen in our air right now? Or is it purer then what we have now? if then it is more pure then the oxygen we breath right now, then it is more pure. Do you always do this with people you speak, that is critical of everything that is said, because i said pure oxygen, you have caused all this strife. i am sorry, i should have said " more pure oxygen ". i would that you would have just asked me " Are you saying it is PURE oxygen, 100% oxygen? " thereby preventing all this disputing. i will try to be more technical and specific when talking with you, so as to hopefully not have this happen again.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Does not the Bible clearly say that to God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day? Taken absolutely literally, creation could have been 6 days, 6000 years, or 518.4 seconds.

Yes you are correct, Scripturally speaking, the Earth was created in 6 days ( 24 hour periods ) or 6000 years. This is correct and is Scriptural, However what is not Scriptural, is that the Earth is billions of years old, this is what men teach and not God, it is a doctrine of men that teach contrary to the Words of God. And as for the 518.4 seconds, i know not what you mean, nor what you are referring to, please teach me what this means, the 518.4 seconds????

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

People lived to be a thousand years old, plants lived longer, animals lived longer, they don't now. You tell me then, what changed ???????
i have told you the Truth what changed and you will not believe it, nor hear it. Therefore tell me what you think, changed???

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Mallon]

Does the Bible clearly say God made the Earth in 6 days, Yes or No ?????? Do you believe He did or didn't ?

Yes, it does. It also clearly says the Earth rests on pillars, sits beneath a sold firmament in the sky, and forms the pivot-point of the Sun's rotation. And lest you be a hypocrite, I trust you believe these things as well.
Jesus hated hypocrisy.

You do error in saying that evidence that the world was flat, came from the HOLY BIBLE, for it was the HOLY BIBLE that proved the Earth was not flat, but that it was round.

Cite me one passage that attests to the sphericity of the earth (and note that 2-dimensional objects are flat).

 

[Markus6]

i then told you the benefits of oxygen, that is what is used in hospitals when a person is having breathing difficulties, this statement was then blown way out of purportion. Tell me then, Why does a doctor or nurse have someone put on oxygen? This very reason that they are, is what i was making an attempt to tell you, IT IS HEALTHY.

Humans need a certain amount of oxygen to survive. When people are having breathing difficulties they are taking in less air per breath. Increasing the concentration of oxygen allows them to take in a normal amount of oxygen with less effort. Too much oxygen, however, has negative effects. It is NOT 'healthy' in all circumstances.

Oxygen therapy is the administration of oxygen as a therapeutic modality. Oxygen therapy benefits the patient by increasing the supply of oxygen to the lungs and thereby increasing the availability of oxygen to the body tissues.
Appropriate levels of oxygen are vital to support cell respiration. High blood and tissue levels of oxygen can be helpful or damaging, depending on circumstances. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy is the use of high levels of oxygen for treatment of specific diseases. High levels of oxygen given to neonates causes blindness by promoting overgrowth of new blood vessels in the eye obstructing sight. This is Retinopathy of prematurity (ROP). Administration of high levels of oxygen in patients with severe emphysema and high blood carbon dioxide reduces respiratory drive, which can precipitate respiratory failure and death.

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen

Science teaches that there was more oxygen then compared to how much is now, therefore, it is not the same air that we have now, this is what we were discussing was it not?

No science teaches that there was initially practically no oxygen in the air. The "metabolic action of early anaerobes" increased the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. In the recent past there has been more oxygen:

Over the past 500 million years, oxygen levels fluctuated between 15 and 35% per volume. Towards the end of the Carboniferous era (coal age) about 300 million years ago, atmospheric oxygen levels reached a maximum of 35% by volume, allowing insects and amphibians with limiting respiratory systems to grow much larger than today's species. Today, oxygen is the second most common component of the earth's atmosphere (about 21% by volume) after nitrogen.

Source

But there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it would allow humans to live longer.

Controlled tests of high oxygen mixtures in diving (see nitrox) and other activities, even at higher than normal pressures, demonstrated no particular effects on humans other than promotion of an increased tolerance to aerobic exercise

Source

 

[crawfish]

Yes you are correct, Scripturally speaking, the Earth was created in 6 days ( 24 hour periods ) or 6000 years. This is correct and is Scriptural, However what is not Scriptural, is that the Earth is billions of years old, this is what men teach and not God, it is a doctrine of men that teach contrary to the Words of God. And as for the 518.4 seconds, i know not what you mean, nor what you are referring to, please teach me what this means, the 518.4 seconds????

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Well, if 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years= 1day, then:

1 day = 24hrs * 3600sec = 86,400 seconds per day
86,400 / 1000 = 86.4 seconds
86.4 seconds * 6 = 518.4 seconds.

However, is there no chance the thousand years comment is simply a generalization, just meaning "an unimaginably long time"?

 

[busterdog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crawfish
So, you are saying that God is actively and intentionally trying to deceive us. He's making us make a choice - "choose between my words or what you see with your own eyes".

This certainly isn't the idea of God I get by reading the Bible. Romans 1:20 above is certainly a good example of this. I think you're limiting God by keeping His word, and His creation, in a perspective you can get your mind around. Both are greater than all of us.

^i^

Jn:7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

i need say no more.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

This is the old deception canard. God needn't first check with us to figure out what a 10 million year old rock should look like.

Was the wine old in the story? No. How do you know? You read scripture. It was mintues old. I am thus not deceived. QED

Why try to make this God's fault? Not your intend, but an arguable effect of what you are saying.

Consider that it is not so much "deception" as hiding. God does not apologize for it.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes, it does. It also clearly says the Earth rests on pillars, sits beneath a sold firmament in the sky, and forms the pivot-point of the Sun's rotation. And lest you be a hypocrite, I trust you believe these things as well. Jesus hated hypocrisy.

please give the verses that say these things, that i may be better able to answer you.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Mallon]

please give the verses that say these things, that i may be better able to answer you.

I asked you first to provide just one passage in support of a spherical earth.

Regardless, here's my support: Job 38:13-14; Isaiah 40:22; Matthew 4:8; 1 Samuel 2:8; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Job 9:6, 38:4; Psalm 75:3, 96:10, 104:5; Genesis 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 28:12; 2 Kings 7:2; Job 37:18; Malachi 3:10; Joshua 10:12; Psalm 19:4-6; Ecclesiastes 1:5).

 

[DiscipleDave]

Well, if 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years= 1day, then:

1 day = 24hrs * 3600sec = 86,400 seconds per day
86,400 / 1000 = 86.4 seconds
86.4 seconds * 6 = 518.4 seconds.

However, is there no chance the thousand years comment is simply a generalization, just meaning "an unimaginably long time"?

That is what many would like to believe, however that is not what it says. It is very specific as to what is one of God's Days compared to our days, if then it was otherwise, He would have clearly said so.
Also many think because Jesus said " No man knows the Day or the hour " Means that no man knows period. Jesus knew the time that He would return, and even give us signs that we should look for, He does not know the Day or the hour, this is True, However He does know what month it will be, what year it will be. This is yet another example of false interpretation, instead of believing what it says, they would rather believe something other then what it says, as if to know something new.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[crawfish]

This is the old deception canard. God needn't first check with us to figure out what a 10 million year old rock should look like.

Was the wine old in the story? No. How do you know? You read scripture. It was mintues old. I am thus not deceived. QED

Why try to make this God's fault? Not your intend, but an arguable effect of what you are saying.

Consider that it is not so much "deception" as hiding. God does not apologize for it.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

You're going to have to do better than that. Keep with me here. God created everything, right? Thus, he also created the LAWS that governs all things. Many of those laws have been found to be consistent and repeatable, and testable. Thus, if God set up those laws in such a way where we'd have to BREAK them for what actually happened to be true, that IS deceptive.

Jesus wasn't trying to deceive anybody by creating aged wine.

I'm not making this God's fault. I'm saying the creation story was told for a different purpose other than revealing God's actual method of creation.

By the way, Luke 10:21 also fails the contextual test for this argument.

 

[Jase]

I admit there are several arguements here. I am also a creationist and defend God's word about Creation. Let's face it, we're gonna keep debating and debating. Discussing and discussing our origins and formation of the earth and the universe. But I tell you the truth. When the Lord Jesus comes we're gonna see who is right. The Word of God, not evolutionistic thinking. That's why the Bible says, "TRUST IN THE LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING, In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord, and depart from evil." --Proverbs 3:5-7

In other words, throw away all intelligence and reason given to us by God, and live in ignorance?

 

[crawfish]

That is what many would like to believe, however that is not what it says. It is very specific as to what is one of God's Days compared to our days, if then it was otherwise, He would have clearly said so.
Also many think because Jesus said " No man knows the Day or the hour " Means that no man knows period. Jesus knew the time that He would return, and even give us signs that we should look for, He does not know the Day or the hour, this is True, However He does know what month it will be, what year it will be. This is yet another example of false interpretation, instead of believing what it says, they would rather believe something other then what it says, as if to know something new.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

A literalist argued in a thread below that the reason God told Noah to take two of each species in one passage and 7 in another is that the first was the "general" instruction and the latter was the specific. What is your view on this? If it's plainly as God said it in the Bible, then his answer cannot possibly be true.

 

[Jase]

Does the Bible clearly say God made the Earth in 6 days, Yes or No ?????? Do you believe He did or didn't ?

No actually it doesn't. In fact if you ask most Jews who read it in its original language they will tell you it never even suggests something so ridiculous.

You do error in saying that evidence that the world was flat, came from the HOLY BIBLE, for it was the HOLY BIBLE that proved the Earth was not flat, but that it was round. Scientists of those days said it was flat, yet Scriptures indicate that it was round. If then you believe Scriptures gave them the evidence that the earth was flat, what Scriptures did that?

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

No, actually the Bible supports a flat Earth. Read up on ancient Hebrew cosmology. They believed the Earth was flat with a dome above it and stars scattered in the dome. The greeks were actually the first ones to suggest a spherical Earth.

 

[Jase]

Here is the Truth, and even your science teaches this, There was more oxygen in the air prior to 4000 years ago, Science teaches that there was more oxygen then compared to how much is now, therefore, it is not the same air that we have now, this is what we were discussing was it not? i only used the oxygen in the hospital as an example. That it is used to help ones health. Do you or do you not agree with that?

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Oxygen has steadily increased over the past 4 billion years due to more photosynthesis. Not to mention, the increase in oxygen 2 billion years ago caused an ecological crisis known as the Oxygen Catastrophe because organisms were being poisoned by the increase in oxygen at that time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Catastrophe


The plentiful oxygen eventually caused an ecological crisis. From the point of the view of the anaerobic organisms already present on earth and in the oceans, the environment was poisoned with oxygen, and the oceans were scrubbed free of important nutrients.

Poisoned with oxygen. Does that sound healthy and extended life promoting to you Dave?

 

[DiscipleDave]

I asked you first to provide just one passage in support of a spherical earth.

Isaiah 40:22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Regardless, here's my support: Job 38:13-14; Isaiah 40:22; Matthew 4:8; 1 Samuel 2:8; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Job 9:6, 38:4; Psalm 75:3, 96:10, 104:5; Genesis 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 28:12; 2 Kings 7:2; Job 37:18; Malachi 3:10; Joshua 10:12; Psalm 19:4-6; Ecclesiastes 1:5).[/quote]

Job 38:13: That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? 14: It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

is this relevant to what we are discussing?

Isaiah 40:22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Again nothing about Earth resting on pillars, or sits beneath a sold firmament in the sky, or the earth being a pivot-point of the Suns rotation.

Matthew 4:8;Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

What is relevant to what we are discussing?

1 Samuel 2:8;He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.

OK, now we are getting somewhere, this verse is talking about the pillars of the Earth, tell me then, are these pillars, visible or invisible ? IF you think they are visible then Yes you are correct the Bible talks about the EArth having pillars and it does not, therefore clearly that would be wrong, But if they are invisible and only God can see them, then Scriptures still stands True, just because we can't see them, does not mean they do not exist.

1 Chronicles 16:30;Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Nothing to do with pillars or what we are discussing.

Job 9:6,Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Again if they are invisible then we can't see them, can we.

Job 38:4; 4: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

no relevence.

Psalm 75:3: The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Visible or invisible?

Psalms 96:10, Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Again no relevence.

Psalms 104:5: Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

No relevence, i understand that you did a search on foundations of the earth, but no mention of pillars here, to which i am desiring to know about.

Genesis 7:11, In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Nothing here either, i asked for you to show me relevant verses that speaks about the Earth rests on pillars, sits beneath a sold firmament in the sky, and forms the pivot-point of the Sun's rotation. So far, i have read about the pillars of the Earth, still waiting for the rest.

Genesis 8:2; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Nope not here also, are you saying these verses because of the word windows, this is a figure of speech, and not an actual window.

Deuteronomy 28:12; The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

No relevence

2 Kings 7:2; Then a lord on whose hand the king leaned answered the man of God, and said, Behold, if the LORD would make windows in heaven, might this thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.

explain to me, the meaning of this statement, a window of opportunity ? is it then an actual window?

Job 37:18; Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

note; does not say it IS a molten looking glass, but AS one. big difference, still do not see the relevency.

Malachi 3:10;Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Again, clearly a figure of speech. Do you then think the whole creation account is a figure of speech?

Joshua 10:12;Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

This actually took place, not only is it written in Scriptures but other cultures have recorded the day the sun stood still also, this is True and it did happen.

Psalm 19:4-6; Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5: Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6: His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Still no relevence.

Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

Does the sun rise? yes, to humans it most certainly does rise, that is why we call it sunrise. Does the sun go down? Yes, it does to a human point of view, that is why we call it sunset. Does it not hasteth to the place where it arose? yes, to the human eyes, it does exactly that. Everything here is True, and the Sun does exactly that.

You said this:

It also clearly says the Earth rests on pillars, sits beneath a sold firmament in the sky, and forms the pivot-point of the Sun's rotation.

Nothing in Scriptures teach that the earth is the pivot-point for the Suns rotation, now Scriptures does give the human perspective of the sun, and Lo and Behold it does appear the sun revolves around the Earth, And even this is an appearence, what we see, and what we see can be very deceptive, even in ageing things.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^