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Watchman v. Prophet

turned around

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Hi,
Interesting to me is at that the transfiguration when Moses, and Elijah appeared. The Spirit whisked away those two. The word was "hear him" JESUS, the prophets served a purpose. We study the prophecies, because there accurate. We don't reestablish them in this dispensation.
 
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Optimax

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So!

You think your a "watchman".

God, you think, has called you to decide if churches are preaching/teaching correct doctrine.

First scripture does tell us that Jesus gave apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.

Eph 4:11-12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: KJV


Says what they were given for.

To perfect or mature the saints.

No mention of a watchman given to keep an eye on those that are given.

However.

You think and will insist that you are called to be a watchman.

What are the qualifications of a "watchman" if there was such.

If the job is to decide if doctrine taught by those that Jesus gave is correct.

Then a watchman would have to be schooled by Jesus in person since He is The One that gave the gifts.

Otherwise how is a watchman qualified to determine if doctrine taught is correct or not?

There is no such "calling" as a watchman in NT times.

:)
 
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Andrea411

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That's true, but you don't ever see Worship leaders

  • who, while not being part of any church, Lord it over others as a calling.

    Who come onto CF and speak as one with authority and get all bent out of shape if anyone questions them.

    Who do not have any other aspect of their ministry beyond cyber pontificating

    I've never seen a worship leader start thread after thread running anothers ministry down based on what they think they heard.....

    I've never seen a worship leader start thread after thread to find fault with others, either individuals, ministers or churches

    I've never seen a worship leader use the "God called me to do this" as a defense for a critical spirit.

thanks :wave:

As for prophets - you will note:

Acts 13:1
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.


1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If someone is going to claim the role of a prophet - he/she better be in the church - prophets in the NT are not some loner sent to lord rules and guidance over people. They are part of the five fold ministry that train and equip the saints for the work of the ministry - not sit back and bark commands and warnings into the air.

hmmm..........

Paul was called out without 'the church'… John the Baptist, although Old Covenant was alone…. and then it depends on what you call 'the church'. Is the church a denomination, or a building? Or where two or more are gathered?
I have come to understand it as those bound through the Holy Spirit to our Lord Jesus. I myself am between churches, looking and praying, although I am in fellowship with other believers through prayer gatherings. I am missing the ministry of His church without a pastor, teacher, etc etc…. although there are some I consider myself under. I would accept correction etc etc…. I guess I've wrestled with this question for many years. My conclusion … we are bound by the Holy Spirit, not by doctrine or denomination.
The gift of Prophet is a very heavy mantle to bear and when one says that is their gift, I think we should 'consider' it and uphold them. It is easy to criticize. it is much harder to put yourself out there for others to criticize. In that I see, although I might give the message differently. Is it the message for the church, or a part of the church. Remembering that the church didn't have billions of peoples in it at the time, the New Testament was written.

Denominations are just a natural 'human' answer to what to do with so many people who feel so strongly about certain aspects of their walk with the Lord…. they respectfully should tarry together. Not as one better than the other but as those in fellowship with the Lord, but with distinct interpretations. Fortunately, we aren't saved bc we can read or by our doctrine and or denomination. Paul was clear, one builds another builds on that foundation, always in alignment with scripture…

Don't you think? hmmmm?

God bless, andrea
 
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Andrea411

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So!

You think your a "watchman".

God, you think, has called you to decide if churches are preaching/teaching correct doctrine.

First scripture does tell us that Jesus gave apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.

Eph 4:11-12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: KJV


Says what they were given for.

To perfect or mature the saints.

No mention of a watchman given to keep an eye on those that are given.

However.

You think and will insist that you are called to be a watchman.

What are the qualifications of a "watchman" if there was such.

If the job is to decide if doctrine taught by those that Jesus gave is correct.

Then a watchman would have to be schooled by Jesus in person since He is The One that gave the gifts.

Otherwise how is a watchman qualified to determine if doctrine taught is correct or not?

There is no such "calling" as a watchman in NT times.

:)
After reading your posts I went back and read the whole thread… no one here called themselves a watchman. What makes you so sure there are none. I disagree. Watchmen are used to sound an alarm, it may be that we don't need an alarm today but hopefully, when we do, there will be watchmen.
If you've ever been in the service (I was not) but from what I've read, the person standing guard can be executed should they fall asleep at the guard post. Being a watchman is a tedious thankless job, for which people give their lives in service to wait on the Lord.
Think of Simeon….

Luke...
5 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
33 And Joseph and His mother[a] marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
…………..
Ezekiel

16 Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman or the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

22 Then the hand of the Lord was upon me there, and He said to me, “Arise, go out into the plain, and there I shall talk with you.”

23 So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 24 Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. 26 I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. 27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
………..
Amos 3
7 Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.

…………..
Apostle John was a watchman and he left a whole book of warnings….
………

If the Lord calls his watchman Prophets, they are listed in the NT. It is a job I would not envy anyone, but I would be grateful to them….

The fact that we are warned about false prophets (It would have been far simpler for God to say there would be NO PROPHETS) this only tells us there are genuine prophets and you must not follow anyone but do and learn the word for yourself so that you will not be deceived by false prophets and stop worrying about it unless you refuse to do what the Lord commands. WHAT DOES THE LORD COMMAND AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO US?


25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?" 26 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." 30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' " 32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." 35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So ask yourselves, what does it mean to believe…?

God bless, andrea
 
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contango

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You think and will insist that you are called to be a watchman.

What are the qualifications of a "watchman" if there was such.

If the job is to decide if doctrine taught by those that Jesus gave is correct.

Then a watchman would have to be schooled by Jesus in person since He is The One that gave the gifts.

Otherwise how is a watchman qualified to determine if doctrine taught is correct or not?

There is no such "calling" as a watchman in NT times.

:)


I don't see a specific "calling" to be a watchman but we should all test what we are taught, we should all question teachings that don't appear to align with Scripture.

How do we know if doctrine is correct? Presumably the same way the Bereans did, by studying the Scriptures. And if doctrine appears to be wrong, what is wrong with offering a Scripturally-reasoned explanation of why we believe it to be wrong? As long as we don't take the "my way is the only way" approach I'd hope anyone who saw fit to teach others would be willing to discuss what they were teaching with someone who was confused or uncertain.

Personally I've only ever approached a minister about doctrine once. I explained why I was concerned, expressed what was troubling me and why I didn't think it aligned with Scripture, and encouraged him to test what I was saying as well as the specific practise within the church. Some things he accepted, others he wasn't sure about, but he certainly appreciated me talking to him about it.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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So!

You think your a "watchman".

God, you think, has called you to decide if churches are preaching/teaching correct doctrine.

First scripture does tell us that Jesus gave apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.

Eph 4:11-12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: KJV


Says what they were given for.

To perfect or mature the saints.

No mention of a watchman given to keep an eye on those that are given.

However.

You think and will insist that you are called to be a watchman.

What are the qualifications of a "watchman" if there was such.

If the job is to decide if doctrine taught by those that Jesus gave is correct.

Then a watchman would have to be schooled by Jesus in person since He is The One that gave the gifts.

Otherwise how is a watchman qualified to determine if doctrine taught is correct or not?

There is no such "calling" as a watchman in NT times.

:)

You don't even know what the qualifications for "watchman" are so how can you much a statement like you did there at the end? There's a LOT of presumption on your part for acknowledging your ignorance on the issue.

Ok, so yes, watchman is not listed in Ephesians 4 as an "official" church position, but yet church treasurer is not either and I don't think you have a problem with that. Worship leader isn't either, and you don't have a problem with that do you? Usher isn't an official church position and yet men (and even women) have been listed as ushers in church's I've attended. Sunday School Superintendant, the list goes on, so what's your deal with someone who may feel called to look out for others? It's been well established by more than one individual here that a watchman is simply someone who looks out for danger on behalf of another, or a group of others, is that so bad? If everything you want to teach and believe in has to be in scripture then why do you believe in a rapture? That is not mentioned EVER in scripture and yet 90% of Christendom will preach it as if Jesus said so Himself (which He didn't). If in deed God called me or anyone else as such, He will make it happen, regardless of anyone's doubts.

BTW, I don't believe "watchman" was an official OT position within Judaism either, there were prophets and priests, but watchman wasn't one, and yet God called Ezekiel to be one.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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That's true, but you don't ever see Worship leaders

  • who, while not being part of any church, Lord it over others as a calling.

    Who come onto CF and speak as one with authority and get all bent out of shape if anyone questions them.

    Who do not have any other aspect of their ministry beyond cyber pontificating

    I've never seen a worship leader start thread after thread running anothers ministry down based on what they think they heard.....

    I've never seen a worship leader start thread after thread to find fault with others, either individuals, ministers or churches

    I've never seen a worship leader use the "God called me to do this" as a defense for a critical spirit.

thanks :wave:

As for prophets - you will note:

Acts 13:1
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.


1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If someone is going to claim the role of a prophet - he/she better be in the church - prophets in the NT are not some loner sent to lord rules and guidance over people. They are part of the five fold ministry that train and equip the saints for the work of the ministry - not sit back and bark commands and warnings into the air.

hmmm..........

For all the grief most here give gideons300 (and I'm assuming you are referring to him here) I'm reading a book by Francis Chan right now, Forgotten God, and what he says in there is almost exactly like what gideons says here on CF. So it's not just one online guy who speaking it, a MAJOR figure in Christianity also does.
 
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lismore

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A watchman (There was only one in the bible) is called to care for the people . .

Hello!

Note here that the plural of watchman 'watchmen' is used. if the plural is used how can there only be one?

Psalm 130:6
I wait for the Lord more than watchmen wait for the morning, more than watchmen wait for the morning.

:)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Hello!

Note here that the plural of watchman 'watchmen' is used. if the plural is used how can there only be one?

Psalm 130:6
I wait for the Lord more than watchmen wait for the morning, more than watchmen wait for the morning.

:)

Yup the word watchmen (plural) is used around 44 times in the Bible

Jeremiah 6:17 I appointed watchmen over you and said, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But you said, 'We will not listen.'

Isaiah 62:6 I have posted watchmen on your walls, Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the LORD, give yourselves no rest
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hello!

Note here that the plural of watchman 'watchmen' is used. if the plural is used how can there only be one?

Psalm 130:6
I wait for the Lord more than watchmen wait for the morning, more than watchmen wait for the morning.

:)

that's cuz they were the watchmen in the towers in the night watching for enemies .

in the "night" of Israel

there was one watchman ... who was told to hide from the people .
 
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Always in His Presence

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For all the grief most here give gideons300 (and I'm assuming you are referring to him here) I'm reading a book by Francis Chan right now, Forgotten God, and what he says in there is almost exactly like what gideons says here on CF. So it's not just one online guy who speaking it, a MAJOR figure in Christianity also does.


I would ask that you stop assuming because you are dead wrong.

And if asking questions and showing scripture to support a position is giving someone a hard time - then I am guilty - most of all to JimB -

But he wears his big boy pants - while we disagree I don't think he's ever made the mistake of thinking it's personal.

And BTW I have never reported him.
 
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Optimax

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BTW, I don't believe "watchman" was an official OT position within Judaism either, there were prophets and priests, but watchman wasn't one, and yet God called Ezekiel to be one.

Yes God called Ezekiel to be one.

Don't you think that would make it official.

For OT times there were watchman.

Nowhere in the NT though.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Paul was called out without 'the church'…

God bless, andrea


What did the Apostle Paul do right after his Damascus road visitation - he started preaching and was then brought before the church in Jerusalem. He stayed there three years learning and was then sent out. From Acts 10 to Acts 13 where we find Paul where?

Acts 13:1
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, and established theologian spent three years after his conversion learning and was then sent out from the church.


Hmmm.......
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I would ask that you stop assuming because you are dead wrong.

And if asking questions and showing scripture to support a position is giving someone a hard time - then I am guilty - most of all to JimB -

But he wears his big boy pants - while we disagree I don't think he's ever made the mistake of thinking it's personal.

And BTW I have never reported him.

Ok, I apologize for assuming you had gids in mind, but people do give him a very hard time here, denying that is dead wrong. The point of my reply to you was simply to say gideon is not alone in his criticism of the church. Now I'm not done with that book yet, and most of Chan's remarks were in the first chapter or two.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Yes God called Ezekiel to be one.

Don't you think that would make it official.

For OT times there were watchman.

Nowhere in the NT though.

Fair enough :thumbsup: I just don't think because the NT doesn't list the position doesn't mean there can't be any... I think as the time of Revelation approaches (if that's 1 year, 10, or 100) "watchmen" will be needed (or even called) en masse...
 
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lismore

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that's cuz they were the watchmen in the towers in the night watching for enemies .

in the "night" of Israel

there was one watchman ... who was told to hide from the people .

Hey chief.

No offence, but you're using a very mystifying and obtuse theory to try to convince me the bible is mistaken in what it plainly and clearly says.

Watchmen!

:)
 
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Andrea411

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What did the Apostle Paul do right after his Damascus road visitation - he started preaching and was then brought before the church in Jerusalem. He stayed there three years learning and was then sent out. From Acts 10 to Acts 13 where we find Paul where?

Acts 13:1
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, and established theologian spent three years after his conversion learning and was then sent out from the church.


Hmmm.......

I thought Paul spent quite a bit of time alone… post conversion and before returning to Jerusalem but there is much that is not in the bible. Fact is we don't know a lot of details and I don't think Paul would want us to be alone especially as new Christians. Just saying that we can't always assume the Lord does things the same way every time. We need to look at situations, the fruit of someone's actions and words.
I was saved in a very odd way… then the mormons came to my door, I thought God sent them. He may have, bc it worked out for my good in the long run, but I assure you I don't send people to the LDS church bc it was my path….
We all run a different race, I don't think we're running against one another…. so I see people doing things differently, I don't get upset about it. I believe the Lord is able to keep us and able to communicate with us… if we're willing to listen.
I firmly believe we are to encourage, exhort and educate others in the faith….. not in our interpretation of scripture but in their faith walk with Christ.
God bless, andrea
 
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turned around

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Hi,
The church is a beautiful organism made up of many parts. Jesus loves his body and will not forsake her. Is she functioning at her best? Probably not. How will she become that glorious body? When the word is that washes and sanctifies her. When she is challenged, and encouraged to look at what Christ has accomplished. The word being supernatural will transform her. It will cause her to repent(change her mind). When fivefold ministry teaches her who she is in Christ she will follow suit.

She will stop being tossed back, and forth with various doctrines. She will do the work of the ministry. Jesus alone is building the church. She doesn't always glamorous in the natural. But this is being done supernaturally. The ones he has called will be glorified, make no mistake about that. I love the church, the living breathing organism. She has flaws but she will come around. I trust Jesus and his word.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hey chief.

No offence, but you're using a very mystifying and obtuse theory to try to convince me the bible is mistaken in what it plainly and clearly says.

Watchmen!

:)

but who .. watches the watchmen? ;)
 
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