Watchman v. Prophet

[ByTheSpirit]

but who .. watches the watchmen?

Other believers should watch all church positions and office holders.... It should not be a thing where one is elevated above another and is beyond reproach or rebuke in the event of error.

 

[Frogster]

Paul was called out without 'the church'… John the Baptist, although Old Covenant was alone…. and then it depends on what you call 'the church'. Is the church a denomination, or a building? Or where two or more are gathered?
I have come to understand it as those bound through the Holy Spirit to our Lord Jesus. I myself am between churches, looking and praying, although I am in fellowship with other believers through prayer gatherings. I am missing the ministry of His church without a pastor, teacher, etc etc…. although there are some I consider myself under. I would accept correction etc etc…. I guess I've wrestled with this question for many years. My conclusion … we are bound by the Holy Spirit, not by doctrine or denomination.
The gift of Prophet is a very heavy mantle to bear and when one says that is their gift, I think we should 'consider' it and uphold them. It is easy to criticize. it is much harder to put yourself out there for others to criticize. In that I see, although I might give the message differently. Is it the message for the church, or a part of the church. Remembering that the church didn't have billions of peoples in it at the time, the New Testament was written.

Denominations are just a natural 'human' answer to what to do with so many people who feel so strongly about certain aspects of their walk with the Lord…. they respectfully should tarry together. Not as one better than the other but as those in fellowship with the Lord, but with distinct interpretations. Fortunately, we aren't saved bc we can read or by our doctrine and or denomination. Paul was clear, one builds another builds on that foundation, always in alignment with scripture…

Don't you think? hmmmm?

God bless, andrea

red above, not sure what you mean as far as john being alone?


1.Mark 2:18
Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And people came and said to him, “Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?”
Mark 2:17-19 (in Context) Mark 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations


John 3:25
Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew over purification.

 

[Frogster]

What did the Apostle Paul do right after his Damascus road visitation - he started preaching and was then brought before the church in Jerusalem. He stayed there three years learning and was then sent out. From Acts 10 to Acts 13 where we find Paul where?

Acts 13:1
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, and established theologian spent three years after his conversion learning and was then sent out from the church.


Hmmm.......

First, he went to Arabia, according to Gal 1, then Dmasacus, although, reading Acts 9, I get the feeling he was not there long in Arabia.

Some say Paul was silent for a few years, end of Acts 9 to early 13, although earlier in 11, Baranbas went and got him, and he was teaching in Antioch.


11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

Some scholars say this text below, indicates that he was always preaching, which makes sense. Why would he start in Acts 9, get sent back to Tarsus, and be quiet and stay there? This is after peter in the Acts 9 account, the Gal 1:18 verse.

Gal 1:21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. Gal 1:23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

Even in the Acts 9 account, connected to Gal 1:18, 3 years later to see Peter, there is nothing to indicate silence, or some long learning period, again, if he was in Arabia for three years, then maybe, but highly unlikely. Most likely the 'then" i went to see Peter, was after Damascus, shrinking the Arabia visit, to no long learning period.

So in the 3 years prior to peter, of Acts 9 to early 13, I presume energetic paul was active. And since he was teaching in 11, he knew his theology, as we see earlier in 9, he was..>>


9:29 And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists.[c] But they were seeking to kill him.

Acts and Galatians has alot of diversity on the chronologies being matched together, according to some scholars. Some have Galatians writiten early, some as late as 56.

So again, some believe as you say, some don't, thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

i suppose Titus was a watchman, in a general sense, and besides, we are the church, not everything has to match OT Israel.


Titus 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—



9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.


11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

 

[contango]

but who .. watches the watchmen?

In a spiritual sense the watchman can alert people to bad teaching and people can then test it for themselves.

If people are expected to obey the watchman without question then you just create a new class of "super-Christian" who is above testing.

 

[Tobias]

IMO watchmen are like shepherds. Both are secular jobs from biblical times, that were used by God to explain spiritual things. "Pastor" is the God given job, "shepherd" is the analogy.

God explained what He wanted done to some of His prophets by telling them it was similar to being a watchman. I imagine that many towns had paranoid people who were constantly crying "wolf"; but hopefully the appointed watchman knew better than to sound the alarm every time.

Right now we have thousands of self appointed "watchmen", crying "wolf" at every sheep and trying to rip their skin off, thinking they are something else underneath.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Right now we have thousands of self appointed "watchmen", crying "wolf" at every sheep and trying to rip their skin off, thinking they are something else underneath.

that's kinda why i point to the fact that only Ezekiel was given this calling

most watchmen don't even follow the instructions given to Ezekiel . you just need to say your peace once . vain repetitions are not going to improve people's hearing .

 

[ByTheSpirit]

that's kinda why i point to the fact that only Ezekiel was given this calling

most watchmen don't even follow the instructions given to Ezekiel . you just need to say your peace once . vain repetitions are not going to improve people's hearing .

But did Ezekiel only say his message once? He went some pretty outrageous lengths to get his message across, laying on his side for years, cutting his hair, etc...

Let me tell you, and I guess everyone, what I perceived when I felt God tell me I was a watchman.

I asked Him what He wanted from me as I sat in prayer one night and as I had done many times before, opened my Bible. The first passage I opened to without flipping through any passages was Ezekiel when God told Ezekiel he was a watchman. So as I always do I prayed about it. As I prayed I saw a huge army of people, dressed in Roman Army armor marching in battle formation, forward towards an unseen enemy led by a single individual who had a battle standard raised high. I asked God what this was and He told me that He wanted me to intercede and pray for more intercessors who would do battle in context of Ephesians 6. The ones up front where to be a new generation of leaders He was raising up to lead the church through the final days. With God as my witness, I am not lying about what I saw or heard. That is when God told me, I want you to be a watchman in the mold of Ezekiel, to cry out as He instructs me. He wants me to seek Him in prayer for whatever He wants to share through me.

Now I have stumbled, I'm not going to lie, I tripped up out of the gate, but praise to His name He must have found me acceptable because He's given me grace to stand again. I only pray this time He fulfills His purpose in me and that I have strength to stand, not in myself, but in Him.

Thank you matjohluk for your words of encouragment and others as well. I am sure some here may refuse to accept what I have shared here, but what need do I have to lie about this? I'm not seeking financial reward, nor am I seeking sympathy or extra privilege I am simply sharing something that happened between myself and the Lord.

 

[Andrea411]

IMO watchmen are like shepherds. Both are secular jobs from biblical times, that were used by God to explain spiritual things. "Pastor" is the God given job, "shepherd" is the analogy.

God explained what He wanted done to some of His prophets by telling them it was similar to being a watchman. I imagine that many towns had paranoid people who were constantly crying "wolf"; but hopefully the appointed watchman knew better than to sound the alarm every time.

Right now we have thousands of self appointed "watchmen", crying "wolf" at every sheep and trying to rip their skin off, thinking they are something else underneath.

Not only do they hurt a lot of people doing it, many who would be willing are scared…. maybe that is a good test for who should be in ministry but I know lots of people who have a real love and understanding of the word, that absolutely want nothing to do with ministry bc of all the infighting, bickering and asking the pastor to settle their differences… and than the pastor's wife… forget it!! A thankless position for no pay that only brings criticism unless your a total recluse and only show up at fund raisers and Sunday morning in the from pew. Always dressed well and always smiling… ugh… no life at all.

 

[Optimax]

IMO watchmen are like shepherds. Both are secular jobs from biblical times, that were used by God to explain spiritual things. "Pastor" is the God given job, "shepherd" is the analogy.

God explained what He wanted done to some of His prophets by telling them it was similar to being a watchman. I imagine that many towns had paranoid people who were constantly crying "wolf"; but hopefully the appointed watchman knew better than to sound the alarm every time.

Right now we have thousands of self appointed "watchmen", crying "wolf" at every sheep and trying to rip their skin off, thinking they are something else underneath.

Good post.

Some grow out of it.

 

[Andrea411]

But did Ezekiel only say his message once? He went some pretty outrageous lengths to get his message across, laying on his side for years, cutting his hair, etc...

Let me tell you, and I guess everyone, what I perceived when I felt God tell me I was a watchman.

I asked Him what He wanted from me as I sat in prayer one night and as I had done many times before, opened my Bible. The first passage I opened to without flipping through any passages was Ezekiel when God told Ezekiel he was a watchman. So as I always do I prayed about it. As I prayed I saw a huge army of people, dressed in Roman Army armor marching in battle formation, forward towards an unseen enemy led by a single individual who had a battle standard raised high. I asked God what this was and He told me that He wanted me to intercede and pray for more intercessors who would do battle in context of Ephesians 6. The ones up front where to be a new generation of leaders He was raising up to lead the church through the final days. With God as my witness, I am not lying about what I saw or heard. That is when God told me, I want you to be a watchman in the mold of Ezekiel, to cry out as He instructs me. He wants me to seek Him in prayer for whatever He wants to share through me.

Now I have stumbled, I'm not going to lie, I tripped up out of the gate, but praise to His name He must have found me acceptable because He's given me grace to stand again. I only pray this time He fulfills His purpose in me and that I have strength to stand, not in myself, but in Him.

Thank you matjohluk for your words of encouragment and others as well. I am sure some here may refuse to accept what I have shared here, but what need do I have to lie about this? I'm not seeking financial reward, nor am I seeking sympathy or extra privilege I am simply sharing something that happened between myself and the Lord.

Than you have no choice you must do as your called. Or your life will never be right. I thought Ezekiel's calling was the heaviest of all. You must become immune to the spiritual daggers that will come your way and pray without ceasing… a watchman sounds the alarm he does not argue with everyone in town. He tells them full throated what God has said!!! They receive it and live or do not receive it and die… as for you, if you do not sound the alarm you will receive their punishment… the blood of those that sin against God would be on your own hands.
When I read Ez 3… it terrifies me to think of being called as Ezekiel was called and I am so grateful to those that rise up and fulfill their calling.

But remember Ezekiel spent weeks praying to the Lord. He learned to hear and He learned to listen, bc it was a life and death issue, not just church politics…. not just a matter of sound teaching or so so teaching… it was literally life and death
…………...
16 Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

God bless, andrea

I am praying for you, Ezekiel went out to the plains, I am praying the Lord make it plain to you….. God bless, andrea



Ez 37: 22 Then the hand of the Lord was upon me there, and He said to me, “Arise, go out into the plain, and there I shall talk with you.”

23 So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 24 Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. 26 I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. 27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

 

[Frogster]

really, without overpressing everything, it is neither here nor there, in a sense, we all watch, or there would be no debate here, everyone feels the need to say how they see it. Fine, I am a watcham, because I talk doctrine, and the people that reply are watchmen, because they rebutt, watching out for their view.

It is watchful forum. (friendly joke.)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Than you have no choice you must do as your called. Or your life will never be right. I thought Ezekiel's calling was the heaviest of all. You must become immune to the spiritual daggers that will come your way and pray without ceasing… a watchman sounds the alarm he does not argue with everyone in town. He tells them full throated what God has said!!! They receive it and live or do not receive it and die… as for you, if you do not sound the alarm you will receive their punishment… the blood of those that sin against God would be on your own hands.
When I read Ez 3… it terrifies me to think of being called as Ezekiel was called and I am so grateful to those that rise up and fulfill their calling.

But remember Ezekiel spent weeks praying to the Lord. He learned to hear and He learned to listen, bc it was a life and death issue, not just church politics…. not just a matter of sound teaching or so so teaching… it was literally life and death
…………...
16 Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

God bless, andrea

I am praying for you, Ezekiel went out to the plains, I am praying the Lord make it plain to you….. God bless, andrea



Ez 37: 22 Then the hand of the Lord was upon me there, and He said to me, “Arise, go out into the plain, and there I shall talk with you.”

23 So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 24 Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. 26 I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. 27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

Thank you for your words sister. You know when I first felt a calling in my life(talking years ago, not necessarily in this instance) I honestly thought since God called me all was going to go smoothly. Man was I wrong. I do understand what you say about it being difficult and perhaps not nearly as much as I should understand. Thank you once again for your words!

 

[Andrea411]

Thank you for your words sister. You know when I first felt a calling in my life(talking years ago, not necessarily in this instance) I honestly thought since God called me all was going to go smoothly. Man was I wrong. I do understand what you say about it being difficult and perhaps not nearly as much as I should understand. Thank you once again for your words!

It took exactly 5 minutes for the first arrow…. Study Ephesians 5 & 6. For today here is Eph 6:10-20 you will need it… God bless, andrea

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

 

[contango]

Right now we have thousands of self appointed "watchmen", crying "wolf" at every sheep and trying to rip their skin off, thinking they are something else underneath.

... which is a good reason to use Scripture to point out why someone's teaching is bad rather than merely stating an opinion.

"Pastor Joe Blow is a great guy, full of Godly wisdom and preaches straight from the Word" is an assertion with nothing to back it up. So it is no more and no less valuable than "Pastor Joe Blow preaches heresy and you'd be well advised to avoid him".

To say "Pastor Joe Blow is dodgy because he preaches that we should just trust what the minister preaches, in clear contradiction of 1 Thess 5:21, 1 John 4:1 etc" might upset those who like Pastor Joe but gives a clear indication of why we think his teaching is worth avoiding. At least it gives people a point of reference.

As someone uses in their signature (on here I think), if something is asserted without evidence it can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[gideons300]

really, without overpressing everything, it is neither here nor there, in a sense, we all watch, or there would be no debate here, everyone feels the need to say how they see it. Fine, I am a watcham, because I talk doctrine, and the people that reply are watchmen, because they rebutt, watching out for their view.

It is watchful forum. (friendly joke.)

No brother, they SHOULD watch. Jesus told us that if we watched, we would not let the enemy come in and steal from us.

He has promised that sin shall not have dominion over us. He has told us that He would not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist. he has promised to keep us from falling, to deliver us from evil. Yet in the church today, we hear none of that in most assemblies. We hear nice platitudes and false assurances that it makes no difference, for we are all seen as holy in His eyes so why sweat it?

Why sweat it? Because He tells us we are truly His friends, His disciples if we do as He commands us. It starts with WANTING TO. Wanting to overcome sin and self. Wanting to lose our lives. Wanting to be living sacrifices. Do we?

If we see we are notwalking as we know He desires of us, we have a choice. Dig in our doctrinal heels about grace being a cover all, a cloak for sin to remain and self to continue to rule, or we can cry out as wretched men, begging God to deliver us as He has clearly promised. In that choice our heart is revealed and so will be determined our salvation.

We cannot work harder. The law kills. But we CAN repent and cry out for new hearts that want to stop sinning, that want to surrender absolutely, that long to walk as living sacrifices. In the end, God will not look at our actions, he will simply read our heart intents. THAT we do have control over.

The power to overcome? God will grant it to any who longs for it, at all costs. And to those who do not? He will harden their hearts so that they cannot see, cannot hear, and cannot find repentance. Now we are all in the valley of decision. I pray all here, myself at the head of the list, never lose sight of the fact that our hearts WILL be examined and there is but one safe place we can hide and be found with full confidence.... in the new man He died to give us.

Blessings dear brother. I am praying for you and covet yours as well.

Gideon

 

[FoundInGrace]

that's kinda why i point to the fact that only Ezekiel was given this calling

most watchmen don't even follow the instructions given to Ezekiel . you just need to say your peace once . vain repetitions are not going to improve people's hearing .

 

[FoundInGrace]

really, without overpressing everything, it is neither here nor there, in a sense, we all watch, or there would be no debate here, everyone feels the need to say how they see it. Fine, I am a watcham, because I talk doctrine, and the people that reply are watchmen, because they rebutt, watching out for their view.

It is watchful forum. (friendly joke.)

hehe, very watchful!

 

[Tobias]

But did Ezekiel only say his message once? He went some pretty outrageous lengths to get his message across, laying on his side for years, cutting his hair, etc...

Let me tell you, and I guess everyone, what I perceived when I felt God tell me I was a watchman.

I asked Him what He wanted from me as I sat in prayer one night and as I had done many times before, opened my Bible. The first passage I opened to without flipping through any passages was Ezekiel when God told Ezekiel he was a watchman. So as I always do I prayed about it. As I prayed I saw a huge army of people, dressed in Roman Army armor marching in battle formation, forward towards an unseen enemy led by a single individual who had a battle standard raised high. I asked God what this was and He told me that He wanted me to intercede and pray for more intercessors who would do battle in context of Ephesians 6. The ones up front where to be a new generation of leaders He was raising up to lead the church through the final days. With God as my witness, I am not lying about what I saw or heard. That is when God told me, I want you to be a watchman in the mold of Ezekiel, to cry out as He instructs me. He wants me to seek Him in prayer for whatever He wants to share through me.

Now I have stumbled, I'm not going to lie, I tripped up out of the gate, but praise to His name He must have found me acceptable because He's given me grace to stand again. I only pray this time He fulfills His purpose in me and that I have strength to stand, not in myself, but in Him.

Thank you matjohluk for your words of encouragment and others as well. I am sure some here may refuse to accept what I have shared here, but what need do I have to lie about this? I'm not seeking financial reward, nor am I seeking sympathy or extra privilege I am simply sharing something that happened between myself and the Lord.

Do what God tells you to do!

He's used the watchman analogy before, He can most certainly use it again. If that is what He is asking of you, then by all means, do it!

 

[Always in His Presence]

...
As someone uses in their signature (on here I think), if something is asserted without evidence it can be dismissed without evidence.

So if someone makes a statement, like the entire Body of Christ is lukewarm, not only without supporting evidence, but ignoring evidence to the contrary, should then be dismissed without evidence.

Thank you, we agree