Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[hogndog]

Not sure i understand all of these replies the question was what do you think about starting a thread on Foxes Book Of Martyrs?
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[groktruth]

Not sure i understand all of these replies the question was what do you think about starting a thread on Foxes Book Of Martyrs?
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Thinking about things that are true is good, but noble, just, pure, lovely, good report, and so on rather limits how much time to spend on grim history like Foxes book of Martyrs. What you gave us is good, but what is the noble response? Let us reflect on the history where religion was transcended by spirituality, and the power of the gospel to transform the lives of the people manifest. Like the Swiss which through Calvin's spiritual teachings were able to escape the 30 years war, the 100 years war, WW1 and WWII.

 

[Albion]

Thinking about things that are true is good, but noble, just, pure, lovely, good report, and so on rather limits how much time to spend on grim history like Foxes book of Martyrs. What you gave us is good, but what is the noble response? Let us reflect on the history where religion was transcended by spirituality, and the power of the gospel to transform the lives of the people manifest. Like the Swiss which through Calvin's spiritual teachings were able to escape the 30 years war, the 100 years war, WW1 and WWII.

I assure you that Switzerland's relatively safe situation during most of that time period had nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[groktruth]

I assure you that Switzerland's relatively safe situation during most of that time period had nothing to do with Calvinism.

Quite true. Calvinism, as I noted earlier, did not ever accomplish what Calvin accomplished, and he clearly failed to transmit his message successfully in his theological writings. Actually, those writings were a bit hypocritical, since Sola Scriptura would result in no more books, the writing of many books only mentioned in the scriptures in the negative. But, the Swiss have honored Calvin as the founder of their prosperity, and the correlation between staying with the traditions he started, and Swiss prosperity, is very close. I hope you are familiar with the story of Haldane, Napoleonic, and Swiss backsliding from Calvin, that led to their present very orthodox constitution.

So, what did Calvin do that worked so well? And how could that message be transmitted and multiplied? What I got from my history mentor was that Calvin believed that the scriptures were indeed inspired by God, and read prophetically, would do what they promised, which is make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The minute you have "Calvinism" you have wandered away from this basic principle, and started to follow Calvin's prophetic interpretation of scripture instead of following scripture itself, and letting all prophesy, his included, be judged with prophetic judgment. We are to live by every word that proceeds, present tense, from the mouth of God. Old prophesy can and must always be refreshed. We are to be guided daily by such an ongoing debate. Calvin's contribution was to successfully keep his followers from following him in any way but working to be even more prophetic themselves. Thus, the Swiss never built a church like the Germans built the Lutheran Church. Luther, of course, hated that consequence to his ministry. He knew that if his followers built a church and named it after him, they were doomed, and he had failed to teach them aright. Calvin was able to get it across to his followers that their religious activities (again, almost all in direct contradiction to the scriptural wisdom of not thinking beyond widows, orphans, repentance, and bridling of the tongue) was sin covered by grace, and not worthy of war and mayhem, stemming from self-righteousness.

Personally, in my efforts to imitate Calvin's prophetic approach to scripture, I have been told by God Himself to only expect futility from all isms and ists. Semantically, He said, those kinds of appendices to word are a direct proclamation that one has taken something natural or carnal, and made it into an idol. He warned me that He has not stopped condemning people for their careless, idle, words, nor justifying them because of their care in speaking righteously, faithfully, only what they can honestly report they believe they heard Him speaking.

And God has assured me that indeed the peace of Switzerland is His grace gift in response to the holiest effort ever made to respond to the scriptures, initiated by Calvin. Are you hearing Him say something different?

 

[Albion]

Quite true. Calvinism, as I noted earlier, did not ever accomplish what Calvin accomplished, and he clearly failed to transmit his message successfully in his theological writings. Actually, those writings were a bit hypocritical, since Sola Scriptura would result in no more books, the writing of many books only mentioned in the scriptures in the negative. But, the Swiss have honored Calvin as the founder of their prosperity, and the correlation between staying with the traditions he started, and Swiss prosperity, is very close. I hope you are familiar with the story of Haldane, Napoleonic, and Swiss backsliding from Calvin, that led to their present very orthodox constitution.

So, what did Calvin do that worked so well? And how could that message be transmitted and multiplied? What I got from my history mentor was that Calvin believed that the scriptures were indeed inspired by God, and read prophetically, would do what they promised, which is make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The minute you have "Calvinism" you have wandered away from this basic principle, and started to follow Calvin's prophetic interpretation of scripture instead of following scripture itself, and letting all prophesy, his included, be judged with prophetic judgment. We are to live by every word that proceeds, present tense, from the mouth of God. Old prophesy can and must always be refreshed. We are to be guided daily by such an ongoing debate. Calvin's contribution was to successfully keep his followers from following him in any way but working to be even more prophetic themselves. Thus, the Swiss never built a church like the Germans built the Lutheran Church. Luther, of course, hated that consequence to his ministry. He knew that if his followers built a church and named it after him, they were doomed, and he had failed to teach them aright. Calvin was able to get it across to his followers that their religious activities (again, almost all in direct contradiction to the scriptural wisdom of not thinking beyond widows, orphans, repentance, and bridling of the tongue) was sin covered by grace, and not worthy of war and mayhem, stemming from self-righteousness.

Personally, in my efforts to imitate Calvin's prophetic approach to scripture, I have been told by God Himself to only expect futility from all isms and ists. Semantically, He said, those kinds of appendices to word are a direct proclamation that one has taken something natural or carnal, and made it into an idol. He warned me that He has not stopped condemning people for their careless, idle, words, nor justifying them because of their care in speaking righteously, faithfully, only what they can honestly report they believe they heard Him speaking.

And God has assured me that indeed the peace of Switzerland is His grace gift in response to the holiest effort ever made to respond to the scriptures, initiated by Calvin. Are you hearing Him say something different?

Actually, I can't find anything in Scripture about Switzerland.

 

[groktruth]

Actually, I can't find anything in Scripture about Switzerland.

As Jesus warned, "You search the scriptures thinking (wrongly) that in them you will find eternal life, but they are they that lead to Me." So, we are to turn to Him, not the Scriptures, for our answers. His sheep know His voice. Those who do not know His voice, and live by scripture instead of by every word that proceeds from His mouth are not His, not known by Him. Those who fear God tremble lest this be their fate. After we have heard from Him, we can find confirmation in the scripture. Isaiah 9.6 confirmed what Calvin heard, and led the Swiss to hope for. Ask God to tell you about what that scripture has to say about the history of nations, and the gospel. Then you will hear words from Him that are confirmed by other scriptures, that explain why the Swiss from Calvin on have enjoyed such peace.

 

[Albion]

As Jesus warned, "You search the scriptures thinking (wrongly) that in them you will find eternal life, but they are they that lead to Me." So, we are to turn to Him, not the Scriptures

No offense, but i believe that the Scriptures are revelation, and that means that they must be revealing. I believe that they are inspired by God, and that means that they are authoritative.

 

[Clearly]

[FONT=&quot]1) Abrahamist pointed out : There are churches that teach that if you ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." Pg 74, #740 (emphasis is mine)[/FONT]

2) Clearly agreed : I also agree with the Roman Catholic Abrahamists’ specific point that to claim that a simple prayer can save us, without the early principle of repentance for sin, is inconsistent with the early Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) Albion said “…I'll just let you pretend to have been persuaded by his presentation.” [/FONT]




There is no need for me to “pretend”. I believe Abrahamist is correct on this point.

I do not believe that a single simple prayer is the mechanism which guaranteed endless salvation in early Christian tradition. In early Christian tradition, there were other very important and on-going processes involved in salvation which the prayer in Abrahamists’ example do not consider. I’ve already offered repentance as one example.

Despite it’s “bad press”, the principle of repentance was an integral part of Gods plan for mankind from the very beginning. Judao-christian creation council texts relate that it was the principle of repentance and redemption that were key in settling doubts about God’s plan for mans moral education. Jewish Haggadah reminds us the importance of repentance to Gods plan.

“When God resolved upon the creation of the world, he took counsel” and his advisors were “ skeptical about the value of an earthly world on account of the sinfulness of men, who would be sure to disregard her precepts. But God dispelled her doubts. He told her that repentance had been created long before, and sinners would have the opportunity of mending their ways” (The Haggadah - first things created ch 1)

Repentance was seen as the process by which mankind improves in learning to live the moral laws required to become rational and prepare one to live moral laws required to live in a social heaven in harmony and peace with others. Hellenistis Synagogal Prayers reflect this principle ::

“... and you bring forward into light the rational animal, the man. 10 With laws, you have taught (him); with just ordinances, you have cleansed (him)…. you have caused the Paraclete to live in us… “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - 7:4; 9-11; 17; A Prayer of thanksgiving - c.f. AposCon 7.38.1-8)

Early synagogal prayers honor the Father for implanting a moral guide within man who is to repent of errors in the process of learning to obey this conscience and in learning higher moral laws. Their early prayers Honor God “who gave an implanted and written law to him, so that he might live lawfully as a rational being, 4 and when he had sinned, gave him your goodness, as a pledge to lead him to repentance; 5 look upon those who have bent the neck of their soul and body to you, because 6 He does not desire the death of the sinner, but his repentance, so that he might turn back from his way of evil, and live! “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - A Prayer of entreaty for God’s Mercy upon the Penitent (AposCon 8.9.8f) #11:1-6)

Moral law, whether the “implanted” law of conscience or written/oral laws God provides to mankind were taught in all generations as 1st Clement says : “ 5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn that from generation to generation the Master has given an opportunity for repentance to those who desire to turn to him. …” (I Clement 7:5-7)

These moral laws in all of their manifestations are given to man for mans’ benefit, as a moral guide, “… indeed, the Master of the universe himself spoke about repentance with an oath: “For as I live says the Lord, I do not desire the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance.” (1st Clement 8:1-2)

Repentance makes perfect sense in its role to prepare mankind to live higher social laws which members of a social heaven must learn to live if they are to live in an eternal peace and joy one with another. Manasseh correctly describes God as : “…the God of those who repent.” (Prayer of Manasseh. The literal translation of this verse in charlesworth is : “…for you are the God of the repenters ..” It is those who repent who are to become his people and he is to be their God.

2nd Clement reminds us that God doesn’t merely want our repentance, but it is our obligation to him : “… While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance. ” (2nd Clement 9:7-8)

And they were reminded that God requires repentance because it is one principle that is required to save us.



2 REPENTANCE, IS A PRINCIPLE INHERENT TO MORAL PROGRESSION

Repentance was central to Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind so as to allow them to become more rational, useful and as a preparation to live in a social heaven in unity and joy. Phillip uses domestication as an example of What God is doing for mans benefit and why he does it.

“There are domestic animals like the bull and the ass and others of this kind. Others are wild and live apart in the deserts. Man ploughs the field by means of the domestic animals, and from this he feeds both himself and the animals, whether tame or wild. Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.” (The gospel of Phillip) It is the intelligent, civil and morally “domesticated” mankind which are best able to live in heaven and be of benefit to others.

Repentance plays a central role in this moral intelligence and civilizing of the morally ignorant and morally uncivilized spirits of mankind. Though spirits are initially, morally ignorant, they are to repent and learn moral laws though they will make mistakes along the way.

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent… (Acts 17:30)

The ancient justification for God “winking” at, or allowing some moral error is because it was part of the moral education of individuals who would, ultimately , become both righteous, and morally educated. Diognetus explains this principle thusly :

“… he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness … (The Epistle to Diognetus 8:9-11)

This plan for man to “plant wisdom in their hearts” and learn to live by it qualifies them to be given greater power and glory in the eternal (‘undying&#8217 worlds. Mankind who reject the opportunity to live by moral laws ultimately regret not having repented and learned to live higher moral laws. The prophet Baruch describes this early tradition :

“… as for the glory of those who proved to be righteous on account of my law, those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their hearts – their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty so that they may acquire and receive the undying world which is promised to them. Therefore, especially they who will then come will be sad, because they despised my Law and stopped their ears lest they hear wisdom and receive intelligence. (The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 51:2-6)

Jewish Zohar likens this moral education of the spirits of mankind to a “boarding school” that spirits are sent to in order to gain the needed education and then welcomed home, having been “initiated into the ways of the palace”.

: “….the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps. It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. … ’ ([Prov. 10:25].” THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)



3 REPENTANCE WAS NOT MERELY REGRET OR EMBARRASSMENT

The ancients understood that simply having a “worldly sorrow” for moral mistakes was different than a “godly sorrow” associated with authentic repentance.

“…Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Cor 7:9-10)

In ancient tradition, the repentant Christian was to : “Wash and be clean; remove the wickedness from your souls out of my sight. Put an end to your wickedness; learn to do good; seek out justice; deliver the one who is wronged; give judgment on behalf of the orphan, and grant justice to the widow.” I Clement 8:4;

Clement explains that they were to be restored “… to the honorable and pure conduct which characterizes our love for the brotherhood. 2 For this is an open gate of righteousness leading to life,… This is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter by it.” (Ps118) 4 Although many gates are opened, this righteous gate is the Christian gate; blessed are all those who have entered by it and direct their path in holiness and righteousness, doing everything without confusion. (I Clement 48:1-4)



POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clearly]

POST TWO OF TWO

Though they would make moral mistakes, still “The lord, however, forgives all who repent, if in repenting they return to the unity of God…” Ignatius to the Philadelphians 8:1.

This is different than the Christian that simply feels badly that he sins, but then intentionally and willingly repeated his same sins. “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” Hermas 31:1-67;


AUTHENTIC VS COUNTERFEIT REPENTANCE

In ancient Judao-christian Tradition, it was authentic repentance which opened the door to the full effect of Gods mercy for sins, the counterfeit “repentance” did not offer mercy in this same way .
“… If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…. “ (1 John 1:6-7)

And, the Lord was not to be fooled by counterfeit displays of either repentance OR fake piety : “… ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” Matthew 23:25-28

“Jesus said, “I took my place in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found all of them intoxicated; I found none of them thirsty. And my soul became afflicted for the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent. “ (The Gospel of Thomas vs 28)

“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me….” (Matthew 15:7-9 Just as Hypocritical and counterfeit piety were done ineffectually and “in vain”, counterfeit repentance was just as ineffectual.

This early tradition was spelled out in hermas’ vision of the willow :
“To those,” he said, “whose hearts he saw were about to become pure, and who were about to serve him with all their heart, he gave repentance; but to those whose deceit and wickedness he saw, who were about to repent hypocritically, he did not give repentance…[forgiveness]” (Hermas 72:2)

God is trying to teach individuals to “Rend your hearts and not your garments” (Joel 2:13)

The bad effects of counterfeit and false repentance did not simply damage the unrepentant Christian, but his immoral behavior affected those who were looking critically at christianity for moral value and rejected it because of the actions of the unrepentant and hypocritical Christians.
[FONT=&quot] “For the Lord says, “My name is continually blasphemed among all the nations…. Why is it blasphemed? Because you do not do what I desire. For when the pagans hear from our mouths the oracles of God, they marvel at their beauty and greatness. But when they discover that our actions are not worthy of the words we speak, they turn from wonder to blasphemy, saying that it is a myth and a delusion.” 2nd Clement 13:2-3[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] This same ill-effect is true as agnostics look closely at Christian arguments and meaness and pettiness in forum arguments nowadays.[/FONT]






REPENTANCE REPRESENTS A REAL AND ON-GOING EFFORT TO CHANGE, NOT A TEMPORARY ADJUSTMENT
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Abrahamist gave us an example of a christian theory where one may claim eternal salvation by saying a single and simple prayer. Nowadays, just as anciently, there were Christians who claimed eternal salvation simply by a single and simple belief in Jesus, but do not attempt authentic repentance. Speaking of such theories of belief while continuing in idolic behaviors, Barnabas said : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“...Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely ...” (The Epistle of Barnabas 4:6) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For there are some who maliciously and deceitfully are accustomed to carrying about the Name while doing other things unworthy of God. You must avoid them…” (Ignatius to the Ephesians 7:1) [/FONT]

To the Christian convert, the early tradition was that they have an opportunity for authentic repentance, “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” (Hermas 31:1-67)

“For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death? 123 Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it, 124 because we have lived in unseemly places? 125 Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars but our faces shall be blacker than darkness? 126 For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death.” 127 (The Lord) answered and said, “This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage, 128 that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said.” (Fourth Book of Ezra 7:120, 123 and 125-131)

The ancients understood that they would make, and even sometimes repeat moral mistakes. The point seemed to be the constant effort toward improvement : “The righteous stumbles and proves the Lord right; he falls and watches for what God will do about him…. sin after sin does not visit the house of the righteous. The righteous constantly searches his house, to remove his unintentional sins.” V2 p655 Psalms of Solomon #3:5-7;




4) REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS; MERCY AND JUSTICE ARE NECESSARILY RELATED – ALL ARE NECESSARY

“….For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,… “ Heb 10:26

In ancient tradition, the Lord God, was a Just Lord.

The difficulty with justice as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for moral ability. If one sinned, they were banished from the realm of the sinless. It was the principle of mercy in ancient tradition that tempered the effects of justice.

“As it was, when God dismissed them from Paradise, He did not allow the divine quality of justice to prevail entirely. He associated mercy with it.” P 37 The Haggadah (The Punishment);


However, the difficulty of mercy as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for justice for sin.
Repentance was the mitigating factor. A degree of mercy was to be offered to the repentant as they learned moral laws. Without repentance, there was insufficient mercy for complete forgiveness.

The implication for ancient tradition was that, without repentance, mercy could not be justly applied. This is the context underlying the Prophet Ezras’ discussion with God regarding unrepentant Sodom and Gomorrah :

“But have mercy upon the sinners for we know that you are merciful.” And God said, “I have no way to be merciful to them.” And Ezra said, “(Be merciful) because they cannot sustain your anger. And God said, “(I am wrathful) because such (are the deserts) of such (men) as these.” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 1:15-18)

In this early theological model; Without repentance, applying a complete, pardoning mercy is unjust (and God MUST remain a God of Justice). Ezra concedes this point to God, saying : “Lord you bring upon us what we deserve. And God said, “Your sins exceed my kindness.” And the prophet said, …“ Pity, Lord, the sinners, pity your own molding, have mercy upon your works.” The God remembered his works and said to the Prophet, “How can I have mercy upon them?” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 2:20-21). It is Sodoms lack of repentance that prevents Ezra from finding any further justification for requesting and applying mercy.

This connection between repentance and mercy has existed throughout all ages of Judao-Christian tradition. “Indeed, all the saints who have sinned up to this day will be forgiven, IF they repent with all their heart … ” Hermas 6:4 (bold is mine)

At some point, all of us must come to the same Understanding of the value of repentance that Gad (brother of Joseph) came to when he taught his sons :

I understood this at last, after I had repented concerning Joseph, for according to God’s truth, repentance destroys disobedience, puts darkness to flight, illumines the vision, furnishes knowledge for the soul, and guides the deliberative powers to salvation. 8 For what it has not learned from human agency, it understands through repentance. “ Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Gad 5:1-8

These early Judao-Christian traditions regarding the relationship between Good and Evil, Justice and Mercy and the Moral education of our spirits is summed up in Jewish 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 (from Qumran “Charter&#8221. Regarding Good and Evil, they taught

“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these spirits. All the hosts of humanity, generation by generation, are heirs to these spiritual divisions, walking according to their ways; the outworking of every deed inheres in these divisions according to each persons’s spiritual heritage, whether great or small, for every age of eternity. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions. “

The ancient tradition were clear as to the purpose of both Good and Evil in Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind. Importantly, we were to be judged and rewards and punishments were associated by virtue of the moral laws we chose to learn to live.

“…Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a person’s endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages of eternity. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil, deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him, until the day of the appointed visitation.” (“CHARTER” 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26)


It was those who had learned to repent and learn to live higher and higher moral laws that were able to say : “I give thanks to You, O Lord, for You have redeemed my soul from the pit. From Sheol and Abbadon You have raised me up to an eternal height, so that I might walk about on a limitless plain, and know that there is hope for him whom you created from the dust for the eternal council. The perverse spirit You have cleansed from great transgression, that he might take his stand with the host of the holy ones, and enter together with the congregation of the sons of heaven. And for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge...” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - (1QH + 4Q432 Frag. 3 Col. 11:19-23)
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I hope it makes sense Why I believe that the early Christian tradition would have believed that “without on-going, authentic repentance, no single simple prayer will guarantee the reward of eternal life in a social heaven of powerful exalted beings who have repented for sin and have learned to live higher moral laws which enable them to live together in unity and joy for eternity.”

Clearly
sienvine

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the first Millenium, there were dozens of experiments on Theology. Of whatever you could think about the nature of God and Jesus Christ appeared: One Person, 2 Persons, 3 persons, one Nature, 3 Natures and whatever.

When you reached the 1000 dC, you find one Church, strong and firm in Europe, unknown in other Continents.

Then Reformation came. As a Catholic, I think that it were the Protestant who separated.

I realize here and I have learned here in this Forum that many Protestant think that it was the RCC who separated from The church. This position raises many problems: separation from which Church? Who was the leader of separation? Was it leadership for not following the Reformers? Leadership for not Reforming?

Anyhow, the consequences have been fast.
Christians were expelled from Japan for fighting each other. The denominations exploded to an estimate of 30 thousand and growing at a 200 a month. If the statistics are not these, please furnish others.

The interpretation by conscience and the Sola Scriptura led to a splintering of Tradition or traditions as some like to make the distinction.

The RCC reformed itself several times since then. The Trident Council and the Vatican II drove the RCC worldwide though paths the Spirit. It numbers 1 billion people. The largest Protestant one is the Anglican Communion and as I am told it is not a Church in itself but a communion - 80,000,000.

In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

Part of me thinks that the means it used to go against what it felt was "corrupt"
also opened the door for further corruption..and consequently, more and more various Protestant Reformations developed.

Then again, perhaps it was a Divine mistake where things bad may've been allowed...but the possibilities are what the Lord chose to work through nonetheless just as he did with the camps not joining the Reformation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

That could take 1000s of years me thinks

Part of me thinks that the means it used to go against what it felt was "corrupt"
also opened the door for further corruption..and consequently, more and more various Protestant Reformations developed.

Then again, perhaps it was a Divine mistake where things bad may've been allowed...but the possibilities are what the Lord chose to work through nonetheless just as he did with the camps not joining the Reformation.

I would tend to agree with that

...

 

[Albion]

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

That is certainly wishful thinking rather than a careful analysis. If splintering were going to destroy Protestantism, it surely would have taken its toll by now. More important, the reason his prediction is incorrect is because Protestants believe in the unity of all true believers, regardless of denomination. They do not think, for the most part, like Catholics and Mormons who are of the opinion that only one organized example of the church of Christ is valid, authorized, etc.

That is why many Protestants move between denominations without difficulty (and few obstacles are placed in their way by the churches involved, also), whereas Catholics think they are almost joining a new religion that they have to be convinced, with difficulty, is as acceptable in the Lord's eyes as their previous one.

More likely is the possibility of major Protestant denominations coming together and merging.

Several important steps have been taken in that direction in recent years. Of course, there have been none among the clannish Catholic churches of whatever denomination.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I would tend to agree with that

...

God is still in control of His Church...

 

[groktruth]

No offense, but i believe that the Scriptures are revelation, and that means that they must be revealing. I believe that they are inspired by God, and that means that they are authoritative.

No offense taken, and I thank you for caring. I agree with the above, as far as it goes, but as it stands, I believe it is a half-truth. But, as you, I express this belief hoping that it will not cause offense, only that it will cause reflection, deepen understanding, and bring us closer to our common, agreed upon goal, namely the destruction of gates of Hell at the hand of the church.

So, what do I see as the neglected half of the truth?

The scriptures speak of themselves. Thus, all the revelation that they bring to the table must be limited by what they reveal of themselves. Authority is all from God, and the scriptures have a measure of authority. But authority is always focused, or limited in it's domain. Thus, the scriptures write of "all authority" recognizing that there are parts that apply here, and parts that apply there. But, all is given to Yeshua.

In their addressing what is written in scripture, these writings authoritatively limit their use as follows.

First, they are directives for getting into the presence of God, hearing His voice, and becoming prophetic. Any scripture that supplies wisdom to accomplish this goal may be taken as directly authoritative. Just agree and obey with one's best understanding of what is written.

Second, they assert that we are not to go beyond what is written, when we consider the works of the church fathers in founding and administrating in the church. As there were specific instructions for building the temple, so there are such for building the church, and we are not even to think beyond these instructions.

Third, there are commandments from God throughout scripture, but the role of hearing God's voice and walking in God's ways in faith (comes from hearing) in keeping these commandments is stressed as a sine qua non. We are directed by scripture to NOT obey written commandments. We are directed instead to obey His voice, as we meditate day and night on them. (See Deut 28:1, Psalm 1) The difference is huge. By responding in this scriptural wisdom to these commandments, we "live by every word that proceeds (present tense) from the mouth of God," basically eating and living from the tree of life. When we take these commandments directly, as literal immediate commands, this past revelation (all the words of scripture did indeed once proceed from the mouth of God) becomes the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and we are destroyed by what we call legalism.

Now, we are looking here, I believe, at the second boundary scriptures gives us to scripture, namely not thinking beyond what is written in regard to church construction and doctrine. What is written is that we are to seek spiritual gifts, especially that we might prophesy, that all can prophesy, that all prophesy in part, that all prophecy is to be judged by other prophecy. This means going to God, and asking questions, hearing Him speak answers, usually pertaining to wisdom or effective practice, which we put out there for confirmation. (All truth is confirmed by two or three witnesses.) In this case, my prophetic experience asking about where and when the church has been most effective destroying gates of Hell points to Switzerland as the best example we have of a past success. God Himself told me that the gates of Hell have been more limited there, post Calvin, than anywhere or any time else. While Switzerland herself is not mentioned in scripture, learning from the historically reported experiences of those called by God is written.

At the time of the reformation, he Catholic church had grossly gone beyond what is written for church doctrine, but most protestant churches did likewise. The latter are especially at fault for the way they ignore the "I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, etc" rebuke, and freely name themselves. The Catholics are less blatent, but they are also guilty, claiming Peter (Cephas) explicitly as their founder. So, they both failed, as scripture warned would happen if they broke this rule.

God tells me that he hates these names. But, that the buildings, not written, that people build and call churches are even more infuriating. Ask Him yourself, if you dare.

 

[groktruth]

God is still in control of His Church...

So, it is His fault that the seven churches in Asia fell away?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So, it is His fault that the seven churches in Asia fell away?

Apostasy is upon the believer (Jude 1), though it happening can never erase the reality of believers still being present and the Church still existing.

There have always been mindsets advocated from others who note that parts of the church are akin to "Babylon" or saying the churches needed to be altered to "save it" have come up with a myriad of things....and it's often, IMHO, behind what often goes down whenever people are quick to throw out cards toward one another decrying the other as a "herectic" or "false convert" on many things.

To me, it seems reflective of what is often labeled as "factions"...and more specifically, one large "GANG-Turf" war. This is something I had to learn often when studying church history/trying to discover how it could be so messed up in differing camps...and yet, each had something wonderful to add to the saints in some way. If interested, I would highly suggest looking up something known as "Ben Witherington's series Howard Snyder's Review of 'Pagan Christianity' ()---as Brother Witherington did an ongoing critique of a book called "Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices", by Frank Viola and George Barna...with the book aimed at discussing how the church has been very much messed up. And I think many his points I believe can be applicable to the discussion on the Reformation.

As said there:

Three Approaches to Church History

Traditionally, the church’s development through history has been seen in one of two ways: The “traditional orthodox” approach or the “secret history of the faithful remnant” theory.



The Traditional View. The most generally accepted view—the traditional orthodox interpretation—is that God has guided the church through history, protecting it from heresy and apostasy, assistingit to adapt to changing circumstances. The development of clergy, liturgy, church buildings, and all the rest were the ways in which the church successfully adjusted as it grew and got more complex, and the way it extended its influence.

Constantinianism—the development of the church after the conversion of the Emperor Constantine—is the key test case. In the traditional orthodox view (celebrated first by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History), the success of the church under Constantine was the great triumph of the church. God’s hand was in it all. In this view, it is foolish to expect the church today to look like the New Testament church (which was essentially a network of house churches with highly flexible leadership patterns). The New Testament church was the church in embryo; the little seedling that
has now wonderfully put forth branches into all the world.



The Secret History of the Faithful Remnant. The other view, unsurprisingly, is just the opposite. God has been working down through history through a mostly hidden underground church. The “institutional church” is corrupt and largely apostate. But God has an unbroken succession of the true church that has appeared from time to time in groups that the official church viewed as heretical or extreme.This true church has surfaced periodically under names like Montanists, Priscillians, Anabaptists, Waldensians, and so forth—and in networks of house churches today. This view has been advocated by various people—notably the German Pietist Gottfried Arnold (1666-1714), and today people like Gene Edwards. Pagan Christianity seems to assume this theory. In this view, Constantinianism was a great tragedy—the fall of the church. The only route to fidelity is a return to the New Testament pattern, some form of restoration to the original model.


The choice here is rather clear-cut. But there is a third way, a mediating position that can be supported biblically, historically,
theologically, and sociologically.




The Renewal Movement View. This view recognizes the truth in both the traditional view and the counter-view. Yes, God has been working through the “institutional church” down through history, despiteits problems. Yes, the church has often been unfaithful, corrupt,and, in certain times and places, apostate. And yes, God has often worked through marginal groups—even sometimes rather extreme groups, like the “Montanists” — to enliven a “faithful remnant.” And yes, many of these groups were not really heretical doctrinally, yet were shamefully persecuted and often driven underground. The renewal-movement view holds that, despite the church’s frequent unfaithfulness, God has continued to work through “institutional” Christianity. It also observes that underground “remnant” churches can themselves become corrupt, or dysfunctional (I’ve known some), or moribund, needing renewal.

Those of us in the Wesleyan tradition note John Wesley’s insights here. Wesley was outspoken in his denunciation of the failures of the Anglican Church in his day. Yet he did not abandon it. His views on the church, drawn largely from the New Testament, church history, and contemporary groups such as the Moravians, had much in common with the “secret history” view. But Wesley felt it was possible (and substantially proved it) to create a “faithful remnant” movement within the larger “institutional” church. This was British Methodism during Wesley’s lifetime. In this view, God has worked throughout history to bring new life to the church through a series of movements. This dynamic is foreshadowed already in the Bible, especially in Israel’s history. It can be documented over the centuries of the church. God has never given up on the church—even the “institutional church.” Neither should we.

Yet in particular times and places the church may become so unfaithful that it falls under God’s judgment and may even disappear entirely.
​

I tend to hold to the The Renewal Movement View---and that GOD'S STILL WORKING THROUGH HIS CHURCH IN WHATEVER FORM IT'S IN---AND seeing that at this point in life, one must strive to be appreciative/keep the main thing the main thing, which is the GOSPEL OF CHRIST ABOVE ALL ELSE AND ENSURING HOW TO SPREAD THAT.... seeking to KEEP THE MAIN THING THE MAIN THING----WHICH IS CHRIST and the GOSPEL ( Ephesians 4:8 /1 Corinthians 12:10 )

Psalm 133/Psalm 133
A song of ascents. Of David.

1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity!

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
​

 

[groktruth]

POST TWO OF TWO

I hope it makes sense Why I believe that the early Christian tradition would have believed that “without on-going, authentic repentance, no single simple prayer will guarantee the reward of eternal life in a social heaven of powerful exalted beings who have repented for sin and have learned to live higher moral laws which enable them to live together in unity and joy for eternity.”

Clearly
sienvine

Makes perfect sense. Thank you for your hard work helping us understand.

God told me that, in order to prepare the way of the Lord, and so be able to understand His way of repentance, I needed to meditate on the command to choose life over death. Repentance requires much diligence and perseverance, facing hard, even unbearable, truths, a strong and determined will. Such high costs would only be faced by those remembering all His benefits, and the costs of not repenting. He gives wisdom to those who ask for how they can grow into this, and I have been assured that all who get on this highway to holiness, and take the steps He leads them to take, are saved as soon as they begin the journey. And, they stay saved as long as the keep moving forward. But, bad company and a false gospel lead most who begin the journey to backslide. They fail to be commanded to make a provision (usually a personal life coach, or discipler) that will keep them moving forward, repenting of one sin at a time, as their faith in His forgiveness grows. "Going to church" as normally understood, is a huge stumbling block. Hebrews 13:17 goes unmentioned.

Thanks again.

Stephen

 

[groktruth]

Apostasy is upon the believer (Jude 1), though it happening can never erase the reality of believers still being present and the Church still existing.

There have always been mindsets advocated from others who note that parts of the church are akin to "Babylon" or saying the churches needed to be altered to "save it" have come up with a myriad of things....and it's often, IMHO, behind what often goes down whenever people are quick to throw out cards toward one another decrying the other as a "herectic" or "false convert" on many things.

To me, it seems reflective of what is often labeled as "factions"...and more specifically, one large "GANG-Turf" war. This is something I had to learn often when studying church history/trying to discover how it could be so messed up in differing camps...and yet, each had something wonderful to add to the saints in some way. If interested, I would highly suggest looking up something known as "Ben Witherington's series Howard Snyder's Review of 'Pagan Christianity' ()---as Brother Witherington did an ongoing critique of a book called "Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices", by Frank Viola and George Barna...with the book aimed at discussing how the church has been very much messed up. And I think many his points I believe can be applicable to the discussion on the Reformation.

As said there:

Three Approaches to Church History

Traditionally, the church’s development through history has been seen in one of two ways: The “traditional orthodox” approach or the “secret history of the faithful remnant” theory.



The Traditional View. The most generally accepted view—the traditional orthodox interpretation—is that God has guided the church through history, protecting it from heresy and apostasy, assistingit to adapt to changing circumstances. The development of clergy, liturgy, church buildings, and all the rest were the ways in which the church successfully adjusted as it grew and got more complex, and the way it extended its influence.

Constantinianism—the development of the church after the conversion of the Emperor Constantine—is the key test case. In the traditional orthodox view (celebrated first by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History), the success of the church under Constantine was the great triumph of the church. God’s hand was in it all. In this view, it is foolish to expect the church today to look like the New Testament church (which was essentially a network of house churches with highly flexible leadership patterns). The New Testament church was the church in embryo; the little seedling that
has now wonderfully put forth branches into all the world.



The Secret History of the Faithful Remnant. The other view, unsurprisingly, is just the opposite. God has been working down through history through a mostly hidden underground church. The “institutional church” is corrupt and largely apostate. But God has an unbroken succession of the true church that has appeared from time to time in groups that the official church viewed as heretical or extreme.This true church has surfaced periodically under names like Montanists, Priscillians, Anabaptists, Waldensians, and so forth—and in networks of house churches today. This view has been advocated by various people—notably the German Pietist Gottfried Arnold (1666-1714), and today people like Gene Edwards. Pagan Christianity seems to assume this theory. In this view, Constantinianism was a great tragedy—the fall of the church. The only route to fidelity is a return to the New Testament pattern, some form of restoration to the original model.


The choice here is rather clear-cut. But there is a third way, a mediating position that can be supported biblically, historically,
theologically, and sociologically.




The Renewal Movement View. This view recognizes the truth in both the traditional view and the counter-view. Yes, God has been working through the “institutional church” down through history, despiteits problems. Yes, the church has often been unfaithful, corrupt,and, in certain times and places, apostate. And yes, God has often worked through marginal groups—even sometimes rather extreme groups, like the “Montanists” — to enliven a “faithful remnant.” And yes, many of these groups were not really heretical doctrinally, yet were shamefully persecuted and often driven underground. The renewal-movement view holds that, despite the church’s frequent unfaithfulness, God has continued to work through “institutional” Christianity. It also observes that underground “remnant” churches can themselves become corrupt, or dysfunctional (I’ve known some), or moribund, needing renewal.

Those of us in the Wesleyan tradition note John Wesley’s insights here. Wesley was outspoken in his denunciation of the failures of the Anglican Church in his day. Yet he did not abandon it. His views on the church, drawn largely from the New Testament, church history, and contemporary groups such as the Moravians, had much in common with the “secret history” view. But Wesley felt it was possible (and substantially proved it) to create a “faithful remnant” movement within the larger “institutional” church. This was British Methodism during Wesley’s lifetime. In this view, God has worked throughout history to bring new life to the church through a series of movements. This dynamic is foreshadowed already in the Bible, especially in Israel’s history. It can be documented over the centuries of the church. God has never given up on the church—even the “institutional church.” Neither should we.

Yet in particular times and places the church may become so unfaithful that it falls under God’s judgment and may even disappear entirely.
​

I tend to hold to the The Renewal Movement View---and that GOD'S STILL WORKING THROUGH HIS CHURCH IN WHATEVER FORM IT'S IN---AND seeing that at this point in life, one must strive to be appreciative/keep the main thing the main thing, which is the GOSPEL OF CHRIST ABOVE ALL ELSE AND ENSURING HOW TO SPREAD THAT.... seeking to KEEP THE MAIN THING THE MAIN THING----WHICH IS CHRIST and the GOSPEL ( Ephesians 4:8 /1 Corinthians 12:10 )

Well, there is news! A great post, most illuminating.

Now, as I talk with God about the GOSPEL, He always leads me to Matt 28: 18 ff, where Jesus states the gospel as He sees it. He points out to me that Paul's understanding of the gospel was flawed, so that at the end, Paul did not have fruit that remained, while Yeshua claimed that He lost none of those given to Him.

The institutions? All things work together for good for those that love the Lord (=keep His Commandments), and are called according to His purposes. Even institutional churches. But almost all are bundles of tares, which when they are set aflame for destruction, one might rescue a brand or two from the fire. Many leaders, or pastors, though, are those who are building with tares (wood, hay, stubble), who will be saved even as their works are burned up.

Renewal from within? Of course, but when they were new, were they not all close to the faithful remnant sort? But, they did not heed the Lord's warning, to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herod, and gave themselves over to hypocrisy, lukewarmness, and building programs. They can be renewed if they will repent, set their sights or returning to their first love and ways, and moving on from there more carefully than was done in the past, that led to their currently grievous condition. This does not mean selling buildings and shocking everyone with radical talk, of course, but quietly, discretely, with patience, one worthy, prayed through soul at a time, leavening with a new leaven. All eyes on returning, as the Lord makes all those who will, able. He has prepared the ground by bringing, even through the Babylonian world, the concept of mentoring, and life coaches, and through curricula like Bill Gothard's Commands of Christ. So, we have a vision of what to pray and work towards. That every member becomes a thoroughly coached disciple, learning to "observe all things whatsoever" Yeshua commanded the original 12, decently and in order, the church as a whole not thinking, much less going, beyond what is written.

 

[Albion]

No offense taken, and I thank you for caring. I agree with the above, as far as it goes, but as it stands, I believe it is a half-truth. But, as you, I express this belief hoping that it will not cause offense, only that it will cause reflection, deepen understanding, and bring us closer to our common, agreed upon goal, namely the destruction of gates of Hell at the hand of the church.

So, what do I see as the neglected half of the truth?

The scriptures speak of themselves. Thus, all the revelation that they bring to the table must be limited by what they reveal of themselves. Authority is all from God, and the scriptures have a measure of authority. But authority is always focused, or limited in it's domain. Thus, the scriptures write of "all authority" recognizing that there are parts that apply here, and parts that apply there. But, all is given to Yeshua.

In their addressing what is written in scripture, these writings authoritatively limit their use as follows.

First, they are directives for getting into the presence of God, hearing His voice, and becoming prophetic. Any scripture that supplies wisdom to accomplish this goal may be taken as directly authoritative. Just agree and obey with one's best understanding of what is written.

Second, they assert that we are not to go beyond what is written, when we consider the works of the church fathers in founding and administrating in the church. As there were specific instructions for building the temple, so there are such for building the church, and we are not even to think beyond these instructions.

Third, there are commandments from God throughout scripture, but the role of hearing God's voice and walking in God's ways in faith (comes from hearing) in keeping these commandments is stressed as a sine qua non. We are directed by scripture to NOT obey written commandments. We are directed instead to obey His voice, as we meditate day and night on them. (See Deut 28:1, Psalm 1) The difference is huge. By responding in this scriptural wisdom to these commandments, we "live by every word that proceeds (present tense) from the mouth of God," basically eating and living from the tree of life. When we take these commandments directly, as literal immediate commands, this past revelation (all the words of scripture did indeed once proceed from the mouth of God) becomes the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and we are destroyed by what we call legalism.

Now, we are looking here, I believe, at the second boundary scriptures gives us to scripture, namely not thinking beyond what is written in regard to church construction and doctrine. What is written is that we are to seek spiritual gifts, especially that we might prophesy, that all can prophesy, that all prophesy in part, that all prophecy is to be judged by other prophecy. This means going to God, and asking questions, hearing Him speak answers, usually pertaining to wisdom or effective practice, which we put out there for confirmation. (All truth is confirmed by two or three witnesses.) In this case, my prophetic experience asking about where and when the church has been most effective destroying gates of Hell points to Switzerland as the best example we have of a past success. God Himself told me that the gates of Hell have been more limited there, post Calvin, than anywhere or any time else. While Switzerland herself is not mentioned in scripture, learning from the historically reported experiences of those called by God is written.

At the time of the reformation, he Catholic church had grossly gone beyond what is written for church doctrine, but most protestant churches did likewise. The latter are especially at fault for the way they ignore the "I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, etc" rebuke, and freely name themselves. The Catholics are less blatent, but they are also guilty, claiming Peter (Cephas) explicitly as their founder. So, they both failed, as scripture warned would happen if they broke this rule.

God tells me that he hates these names. But, that the buildings, not written, that people build and call churches are even more infuriating. Ask Him yourself, if you dare.

Your reply is well written, but I believe scripture is meant for our instruction, meaning all of mankind. When everyone thinks he's carrying on a conversation with God, the result is anything and everything that the mind of man can dream up.

 

[groktruth]

Your reply is well written, but I believe scripture is meant for our instruction, meaning all of mankind. When everyone thinks he's carrying on a conversation with God, the result is anything and everything that the mind of man can dream up.

Only for those who do not know His voice. But, the checks and balances remain useful.

And, of course, we are not talking of "everyone." Only those who hope to walk (and talk) humbly with their Daddy in heaven. Everyone can get such hopes up, and their choice to instead walk "humbly" with a book God has sent them, instead of with Him personally, to live by every word written in that book (that they can pick and choose at their discretion), instead of every word that proceeds from His mouth, is one that saddens, then angers Him and those of us with whom He shares such anger.

You are therefore correct. Everyone who only thinks they are carrying on a conversation with God gets sorry results. But, woe to everyone who doesn't hope and work to carry on such conversations in fact, and know it. These are they of whom it is written He will say, "I never knew you."