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Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

Sophrosyne

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There are churches that teach that if you ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart.
So would this be a valid prayer for salvation?

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”
 
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Abrahamist

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So would this be a valid prayer for salvation?

There is no single one prayer that is valid for guaranteeing salvation. Praying a single prayer is a work and people pray these prayers and then boast they are saved because they have performed this work.

But the Bible says in no uncertain terms, we are saved by faith, not by works lest anyone should boast.

And so praying a single prayer or performing any other single work to guarantee salvation is not just not biblical but is antibiblical.
 
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Sophrosyne

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There is no single one prayer that is valid for guaranteeing salvation. Praying a single prayer is a work and people pray these prayers and then boast they are saved because they have performed this work.

But the Bible says in no uncertain terms, we are saved by faith, not by works lest anyone should boast.

And so praying a single prayer or performing any other single work to guarantee salvation is not just not biblical but is antibiblical.
So you are saying that someone that says that prayer is not really a Christian?
 
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UnamSanctam

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There is no single one prayer that is valid for guaranteeing salvation. Praying a single prayer is a work and people pray these prayers and then boast they are saved because they have performed this work.

But the Bible says in no uncertain terms, we are saved by faith, not by works lest anyone should boast.

And so praying a single prayer or performing any other single work to guarantee salvation is not just not biblical but is antibiblical.

:ahah:
...what happened to James, all of a sudden? Now that you can twist "saved by faith, not by works", then your little twisting of James isn't good anymore, huh?
Secondly: No - simply uttering a prayer doesn't save anyone..... But someone who says a prayer like that AND MEANS IT is a Christian, is covered by Calvary, and is therefore saved.
 
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Abrahamist

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So you are saying that someone that says that prayer is not really a Christian?

I'm not saying that at all. Praying that prayer might be the start of their Christian life. But if praying that prayer is all they did. No, they aren't a Christian.

Being a Christian involves praying every day, going to mass every sunday, confessing your sins, repenting of your sins, loving your neighbor as yourself, keeping Jesus' commandments, etc. It's an ongoing process.
 
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Abrahamist

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...what happened to James, all of a sudden?

I guess you are meaning "faith without work is dead." You didn't quote the verse and I forgot to take my mind reading pills this morning and so I don't really know exactly what you are talking about.

Assuming this, James was right. Faith without works is dead. But it's still faith, not works.

Now that you can twist "saved by faith, not by works", then your little twisting of James isn't good anymore, huh?

I haven't twisted this phrase at all. If I did, how? Is not prayer a work? Is not praying the sinner's prayer trying to gain salvation by a work? Are not people boasting when they claim they are saved?

Secondly: No - simply uttering a prayer doesn't save anyone..... But someone who says a prayer like that AND MEANS IT is a Christian, is covered by Calvary, and is therefore saved.

If someone really means it, they will live it and that is why they will be saved.
 
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groktruth

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Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

The Lord commented that the scriptures could not be broken, referring at the time to the law and the prophets. As the messiah, He must have been aware that part of His mission was for the government to be placed on His shoulders. "There shall be no end to the increase, of the government or of the peace. ..." Later, the additions to the scriptures include the Holy Spirit's admonition to us to pray that we lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and dignity. Especially through the wisdom of leaders and all those in authority. Jesus Himself, when He presented the gospel, as reported at the end of Matthew's version, introduced it by noting that "all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, ...."

Now, in my reading of the history of "Christianity," I am first impressed that the first person to get this prayer answered, this prayer for a quiet and peaceful life, etc, with the government on the shoulders of Jesus, was Patrick, praying for Ireland. Ireland, in fact, was the best testimony of the truth of Jesus, up to the reformation. For nearly 400 years after Patrick, there was peace. The land was severely tormented with violence and invasion before Patrick, but freed from all that afterwards. Even the nasty Vikings left them alone for most of that time.

Then (667 AD), they experimented with Roman, as opposed to Celtic, Catholicism, and too soon, the Vikings came again. But, they had established a base in Switzerland.

Then, the reformation came, and the Swiss invited Calvin to lead them into spiritual truth. And, low and behold, the Swiss began a now 450 year run of peace, prosperity, and national honor, mostly with the government on the shoulders of Jesus. And, as with Patrick's Ireland, there were remarkable testimonies of nasty bands of marauders, worse than the Vikings in most cases, turning away at their borders. All about them, in both Protestant and Catholic countries, there was mayhem, 30 and 100 year wars, WW1, WW2. But, Switzerland, under Calvin, was neither protestant nor Catholic. Each canton was free to choose whatever.

Now, Calvin was unable to catch his message in his Institutes, since Calvinism itself is an historical failure. But, we know from the results, of both Patrick and Calvin, that there is a message that works, to produce a genuine messianic national result. We just have to find it.

The key, in my experience, is to rightly divide words of truth. Prayer, for example, is defined in scripture as listening to God, not speaking. Prayers are not said, they are heard. I don't ask Jesus into my heart, I listen for Him to tell me where He and I are in relation to one another. If I am His sheep, then I will know His voice. If I do not know His voice, my question is, "What must I do to be saved?" Since the faith needed for salvation comes from hearing, I cannot be saved without hearing His voice. Rightly dividing the word, "believe," reveals that my normal understanding and use of the word is badly perverted.

The reformation did not fail. It warned us that our religious activities were not only not going to get us saved, they were a hindrance. Has anyone here even read James on religion? Paul on giving our different groups names? Is "I am of Christ!" different enough from "I am a Christian." to not be divisive? I hear Him say it is all a snare, a stumbling block.

But, you should ask Him yourself. Till then, your claim to faith is likely self-deception.

I am hoping for better.
 
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hogndog

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Has anyone thought about starting a thread entitled Foxes Book Of Martyrs?


The following is an account of an auto da fe, performed at Madrid in the year 1682.

The officers of the Inquisition, preceded by trumpets, kettledrums, and their banner, marched on the thirtieth of May, in cavalcade, to the palace of the great square, where they declared by proclamation, that, on the thirtieth of June, the sentence of the prisoners would be put in execution.
Of these prisoners, twenty men and women, with one renegade Mahometan, were ordered to be burned; fifty Jews and Jewesses, having never before been imprisoned, and repenting of their crimes, were sentenced to a long confinement, and to wear a yellow cap.
The whole court of Spain was present on this occasion. The grand inquisitor's chair was placed in a sort of tribunal far above that of the king.

Among those who were to suffer, was a young Jewess of exquisite beauty, and but seventeen years of age. Being on the same side of the scaffold where the queen was seated, she addressed her, in hopes of obtaining a pardon, in the following pathetic speech: "Great queen, will not your royal presence be of some service to me in my miserable condition? Have regard to my youth; and, oh! consider, that I am about to die for professing a religion imbibed from my earliest infancy!" Her majesty seemed greatly to pity her distress, but turned away her eyes, as she did not dare to speak a word in behalf of a person who had been declared a heretic. Now Mass began, in the midst of which the priest came from the altar, placed himself near the scaffold, and seated himself in a chair prepared for that purpose.

The chief inquisitor then descended from the amphitheater, dressed in his cope, and having a miter on his head. After having bowed to the altar, he advanced towards the king's balcony, and went up to it, attended by some of his officers, carrying a cross and the Gospels, with a book containing the oath by which the kings of Spain oblige themselves to protect the Catholic faith, to extirpate heretics, and to support with all their power and force the prosecutions and decrees of the Inquisition: a like oath was administered to the counsellors and whole assembly.

The Mass was begun about twelve at noon, and did not end until nine in the evening, being protracted by a proclamation of the sentence of the several criminals, which were already separately rehearsed aloud one after the other. After this followed the burnings of the twenty-one men and women, whose intrepidity in suffering that horrid death was truly astonishing. The king's near situation to the criminals rendered their dying groans very audible to him; he could not, however, be absent from this dreadful scene, as it is esteemed a religious one; and his coronation oath obliged him to give a sanction by his presence to all the acts of the tribunal.

What we have already said may be applied to inquisitions in general, as well as to that of Spain in particular. The Inquisition belonging to Portugal is exactly upon a similar plan to that of Spain, having been instituted much about the same time, and put under the same regulations. The inquisitors allow the torture to be used only three times, but during those times it is so severely inflicted, that the prisoner either dies under it, or continues always after a cripple, and suffers the severest pains upon every change of weather. We shall give an ample description of the severe torments occasioned by the torture, from the account of one who suffered it the three respective times, but happily survived the cruelties he underwent.

At the first time of torturing, six executioners entered, stripped him naked to his drawers, and laid him upon his back on a kind of stand, elevated a few feet from the floor. The operation commenced by putting an iron collar round his neck, and a ring to each foot, which fastened him to the stand. His limbs being thus stretched out, they wound two ropes round each thigh; which ropes being passed under the scaffold, through holes made for that purpose, were all drawn tight at the same instant of time, by four of the men, on a given signal.

It is easy to conceive that the pains which immediately succeeded were intolerable; the ropes, which were of a small size, cut through the prisoner's flesh to the bone, making the blood to gush out at eight different places thus bound at a time. As the prisoner persisted in not making any confession of what the inquisitors required, the ropes were drawn in this manner four times successively.

The manner of inflicting the second torture was as follows: they forced his arms backwards so that the palms of his hands were turned outward behind him; when, by means of a rope that fastened them together at the wrists, and which was turned by an engine, they drew them by degrees nearer each other, in such a manner that the back of each hand touched, and stood exactly parallel to each other. In consequence of this violent contortion, both his shoulders became dislocated, and a considerable quantity of blood issued from his mouth. This torture was repeated thrice; after which he was again taken to the dungeon, and the surgeon set the dislocated bones.

Two months after the second torture, the prisoner being a little recovered, was again ordered to the torture room, and there, for the last time, made to undergo another kind of punishment, which was inflicted twice without any intermission. The executioners fastened a thick iron chain round his body, which crossing at the breast, terminated at the wrists. They then placed him with his back against a thick board, at each extremity whereof was a pulley, through which there ran a rope that caught the end of the chain at his wrists.

The executioner then, stretching the end of his rope by means of a roller, placed at a distance behind him, pressed or bruised his stomach in proportion as the ends of the chains were drawn tighter. They tortured him in this manner to such a degree, that his wrists, as well as his shoulders, were quite dislocated.

They were, however, soon set by the surgeons; but the barbarians, not yet satisfied with this species of cruelty, made him immediately undergo the like torture a second time, which he sustained (though, if possible, attended with keener pains,) with equal constancy and resolution. After this, he was again remanded to the dungeon, attended by the surgeon to dress his bruises and adjust the part dislocated, and here he continued until their auto da fe, or jail delivery, when he was discharged, crippled and diseased for life.


 
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groktruth

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Has anyone thought about starting a thread entitled Foxes Book Of Martyrs?


The following is an account of an auto da fe, performed at Madrid in the year 1682.

The officers of the Inquisition, preceded by trumpets, kettledrums, and their banner, marched on the thirtieth of May, in cavalcade, to the palace of the great square, where they declared by proclamation, that, on the thirtieth of June, the sentence of the prisoners would be put in execution.
Of these prisoners, twenty men and women, with one renegade Mahometan, were ordered to be burned; fifty Jews and Jewesses, having never before been imprisoned, and repenting of their crimes, were sentenced to a long confinement, and to wear a yellow cap.
The whole court of Spain was present on this occasion. The grand inquisitor's chair was placed in a sort of tribunal far above that of the king.

Among those who were to suffer, was a young Jewess of exquisite beauty, and but seventeen years of age. Being on the same side of the scaffold where the queen was seated, she addressed her, in hopes of obtaining a pardon, in the following pathetic speech: "Great queen, will not your royal presence be of some service to me in my miserable condition? Have regard to my youth; and, oh! consider, that I am about to die for professing a religion imbibed from my earliest infancy!" Her majesty seemed greatly to pity her distress, but turned away her eyes, as she did not dare to speak a word in behalf of a person who had been declared a heretic. Now Mass began, in the midst of which the priest came from the altar, placed himself near the scaffold, and seated himself in a chair prepared for that purpose.

The chief inquisitor then descended from the amphitheater, dressed in his cope, and having a miter on his head. After having bowed to the altar, he advanced towards the king's balcony, and went up to it, attended by some of his officers, carrying a cross and the Gospels, with a book containing the oath by which the kings of Spain oblige themselves to protect the Catholic faith, to extirpate heretics, and to support with all their power and force the prosecutions and decrees of the Inquisition: a like oath was administered to the counsellors and whole assembly.

The Mass was begun about twelve at noon, and did not end until nine in the evening, being protracted by a proclamation of the sentence of the several criminals, which were already separately rehearsed aloud one after the other. After this followed the burnings of the twenty-one men and women, whose intrepidity in suffering that horrid death was truly astonishing. The king's near situation to the criminals rendered their dying groans very audible to him; he could not, however, be absent from this dreadful scene, as it is esteemed a religious one; and his coronation oath obliged him to give a sanction by his presence to all the acts of the tribunal.

What we have already said may be applied to inquisitions in general, as well as to that of Spain in particular. The Inquisition belonging to Portugal is exactly upon a similar plan to that of Spain, having been instituted much about the same time, and put under the same regulations. The inquisitors allow the torture to be used only three times, but during those times it is so severely inflicted, that the prisoner either dies under it, or continues always after a cripple, and suffers the severest pains upon every change of weather. We shall give an ample description of the severe torments occasioned by the torture, from the account of one who suffered it the three respective times, but happily survived the cruelties he underwent.

At the first time of torturing, six executioners entered, stripped him naked to his drawers, and laid him upon his back on a kind of stand, elevated a few feet from the floor. The operation commenced by putting an iron collar round his neck, and a ring to each foot, which fastened him to the stand. His limbs being thus stretched out, they wound two ropes round each thigh; which ropes being passed under the scaffold, through holes made for that purpose, were all drawn tight at the same instant of time, by four of the men, on a given signal.

It is easy to conceive that the pains which immediately succeeded were intolerable; the ropes, which were of a small size, cut through the prisoner's flesh to the bone, making the blood to gush out at eight different places thus bound at a time. As the prisoner persisted in not making any confession of what the inquisitors required, the ropes were drawn in this manner four times successively.

The manner of inflicting the second torture was as follows: they forced his arms backwards so that the palms of his hands were turned outward behind him; when, by means of a rope that fastened them together at the wrists, and which was turned by an engine, they drew them by degrees nearer each other, in such a manner that the back of each hand touched, and stood exactly parallel to each other. In consequence of this violent contortion, both his shoulders became dislocated, and a considerable quantity of blood issued from his mouth. This torture was repeated thrice; after which he was again taken to the dungeon, and the surgeon set the dislocated bones.

Two months after the second torture, the prisoner being a little recovered, was again ordered to the torture room, and there, for the last time, made to undergo another kind of punishment, which was inflicted twice without any intermission. The executioners fastened a thick iron chain round his body, which crossing at the breast, terminated at the wrists. They then placed him with his back against a thick board, at each extremity whereof was a pulley, through which there ran a rope that caught the end of the chain at his wrists.

The executioner then, stretching the end of his rope by means of a roller, placed at a distance behind him, pressed or bruised his stomach in proportion as the ends of the chains were drawn tighter. They tortured him in this manner to such a degree, that his wrists, as well as his shoulders, were quite dislocated.

They were, however, soon set by the surgeons; but the barbarians, not yet satisfied with this species of cruelty, made him immediately undergo the like torture a second time, which he sustained (though, if possible, attended with keener pains,) with equal constancy and resolution. After this, he was again remanded to the dungeon, attended by the surgeon to dress his bruises and adjust the part dislocated, and here he continued until their auto da fe, or jail delivery, when he was discharged, crippled and diseased for life.



And those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Ever watch The Silent Scream, a documentary filming the facial expressions of a baby undergoing abortion? So prevalent in Christian countries.

Will any attracted by the message of Yeshua, who many call Jesus, move on from the failure of the religious agendas, and simply start keeping His commandments? Simply accept the biblical assertion that "pure and undefiled religion in the sight of God is to visit widows and orphans in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.?" Learn to "not think beyond what is written" in matters of church life?

Let us pray that some will be so bold and courageous. The cowards hiding in the hallowed halls of their named institutions have wrought enough havoc and hell on earth.
 
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Clearly

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I agree with the implication underlying Hogndogs poignant and disheartening example of abusive application of counterfeit religion of torture in an inquisition (pg 75, #748). Such an example is only one type of abuse which motivated the move for religious reformation to higher moral religious principles. However, reformation to higher moral standards and more correct principles itself, when it has been successful, is not a “failed experiment” but rather is an expression of authentic religious aims.


However, I also agree with the Roman Catholic Abrahamists’ specific point that to claim that a simple prayer can save us, without the early principle of repentance for sin, is inconsistent with the early Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.

The promise salvation without repentance (for those who are mentally and morally competent), is simply another abuse of a religious principle and is not an authentic interpretation of the early christian Claim of who can be saved.

Clearly


Clearly
seaceisiis
 
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Albion

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I agree with the implication underlying Hogndogs poignant and disheartening example of abusive application of counterfeit religion of torture in an inquisition (pg 75, #748). Such an example is only one type of abuse which motivated the move for religious reformation to higher moral religious principles. However, reformation to higher moral standards and more correct principles itself, when it has been successful, is not a “failed experiment” but rather is an expression of authentic religious aims.


However, I also agree with the Roman Catholic Abrahamists’ specific point that to claim that a simple prayer can save us, without the early principle of repentance for sin, is inconsistent with the early Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.

Yes, but that point wasn't to be taken seriously. If and when anyone prays the Sinner's Prayer or anything like it, he does so BECAUSE he has repented, AND the prayer includes a confession of sins. There is, in fact, no absence of repentance.

It's possible to describe such praying in a flippant or cynical way as was done, but that's not an accurate description of what's happening.
 
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groktruth

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I agree with the implication underlying Hogndogs poignant and disheartening example of abusive application of counterfeit religion of torture in an inquisition (pg 75, #748). Such an example is only one type of abuse which motivated the move for religious reformation to higher moral religious principles. However, reformation to higher moral standards and more correct principles itself, when it has been successful, is not a “failed experiment” but rather is an expression of authentic religious aims.


However, I also agree with the Roman Catholic Abrahamists’ specific point that to claim that a simple prayer can save us, without the early principle of repentance for sin, is inconsistent with the early Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.

The promise salvation without repentance (for those who are mentally and morally competent), is simply another abuse of a religious principle and is not an authentic interpretation of the early christian Claim of who can be saved.

Clearly


Clearly
seaceisiis

What exactly do you understand to be the pathway of repentance, the steps that we and God must take together, from where we are when we decide to repent, to actually having accomplished the act itself. What is the history of our understanding or discovery of this pathway? Is there more to learn?
 
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Clearly

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Abrahamists point of disagreement was “There are churches that teach that if you ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart." Pg 74, #740 (emphasis is mine)

Clearly said : “... I also agree with the Roman Catholic Abrahamists’ specific point that to claim that a simple prayer can save us, without the early principle of repentance for sin, is inconsistent with the early Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation. The promise salvation without repentance (for those who are mentally and morally competent), is simply another abuse of a religious principle and is not an authentic interpretation of the early christian Claim of who can be saved. pg 75, #750

Albion offers his opinion of Abrahamists' point : “Yes, but that point wasn't to be taken seriously. If and when anyone prays the Sinner's Prayer or anything like it, he does so BECAUSE he has repented, AND the prayer includes a confession of sins. There is, in fact, no absence of repentance. “ Albion, pg 76, post 751


Clearly responds : I take Abrahamist seriously because I respect his claim that the example of prayer ALONE was insufficient, as he indicated that some churches teach “that [prayer] is enough” for salvation.

I do NOT think he meant prayer WITH other principles (e.g. ongoing faith; authentic repentance; authentic confession and authentic baptism) in ADDITION to prayer. He may explain further to tell us which of us understood him (perhaps we both misunderstood...)

The prayer is NOT always accompanied by repentance. I, myself, was encouraged by a “school-side evangelist” to “say this prayer to receive salvation”.

I said the prayer and he then promised me that the prayer saved me. I had no real faith, had not repented and had no intention to follow any christian path. I said the prayer and then returned to my prior disinterest in morals and religion and agnosticism.


Abrahamist will have to tell us if we can place a series of assumptions on top of his statement as you have done or if that is a misinterpretation of his point. If he meant it as he wrote it, then I think Abrahamist is correct and his position on this point represents authentic early christian tradition.


Clearly
seacsesees

p.s. groktruth - I ran out of time and will have to respond to your post tomorrow.
 
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Albion

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I take Abrahamist seriously because I respect his claim that simple that the example of prayer ALONE was insufficient, as he indicated that some churches teach “that [prayer] is enough” for salvation.
It may be that he was serious, but it's a well-travelled debating technique to malign your adversary by picking on an exception and making it into the rule. There are zany Catholics and there are nutsy Protestants, clergy as well as laymen. Those who pray the Sinner's Prayer in the way he explained are not doing it as intended. What this means is that there is nothing wrong with the theology or the churches which use altar calls, etc. but you are supposed to take it that they are all believers that the mere saying of the prayer will save you--magically, we might say.

The prayer is NOT always accompanied by repentance. I, myself, was encouraged by a “school-side evangelist” to “say this prayer to receive salvation”.


I said the prayer and he then promised me that the prayer saved me. I had no real faith, had not repented and had no intention to follow any christian path. I said the prayer and then returned to my prior disinterest in morals and religion and agnosticism.

So you fooled him. What does that prove about the Sinner's Prayer being a means of turning to the Lord after having repented of one's sins? A Catholic can also lie to the priest in confession. Is Abrahamist prepared to say that there are Catholic churches in which the people are given absolution even though they were not repentant?

BTW, he also said "But the Bible says in no uncertain terms, we are saved by faith, not by works lest anyone should boast. And so praying a single prayer or performing any other single work to guarantee salvation is not just not biblical but is antibiblical." However, in another place he said that a lifetime of works and following the church rules is what will save us, not a conversion experience like the Sinner's Prayer, etc.

It's an unconvincing argument.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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What exactly do you understand to be the pathway of repentance, the steps that we and God must take together, from where we are when we decide to repent, to actually having accomplished the act itself. What is the history of our understanding or discovery of this pathway? Is there more to learn?

Simple, full submission to God's will. From one of our Confessional prayers: "...increase in us true knowledge of Thee and of Thy Word, so that we may delight in Thy Will and walk in Thy ways; to the glory of Thy Holy Name. Amen".

We can not earn salvation, God gives it freely when we defy our will and submit to His.:)
 
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Clearly

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Abrahamist statement we are discussing is

“There are churches that teach that if you ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart." Pg 74, #740 (emphasis is mine)

Albion,

Your various criticisms of Abrahamist simple statement (and my agreement with his statement) involve a series of modifications and assumptions about Abrahamists original statement. When an original statement must be modified BEFORE disagreement can be found, this is good evidence that his unmodified statement is solid and correct.


For example, you mis-characterize the INTENT of his statement saying “...that point wasn't to be taken seriously. (Albion, pg 76, post 751) to allow us to avoid applying his point with any seriousness. However, I believe Abrahamist was serious, and, if so, then we have no excuse to avoid the point of his statement.

Though you then admit : “It may be that he was serious”, you then mis-characterize his TECHNIQUE and MOTIVES saying : “It may be that he was serious, but it's a well-travelled debating technique to malign your adversary by picking on an exception and making it into the rule. (Albion pg 76, #754). However even this mis-characterization of Abrahamists’ motives seems unwarranted since Abrahamist was responding to a SPECIFIC problem rather than a “general rule”. Abrahamist correctly uses the limiting term : “some churches”. Abrahamist did NOT say “most churches” nor did he indicate his example was to be taken as a “general rule”.

Rather than to place words and intent in Abrahamist’ mouth and heart that he did not intend, I assumed Albrahamist was honestly making his simple and specific point that a single prayer itself is not enough to gain eternal salvation in heaven.

You then add further MODIFICATIONS : ADDITIONS, ASSUMPTIONS, an d CONDITIONS to Abrahamists simple statement saying : “If and when anyone prays the Sinner's Prayer or anything like it, he does so BECAUSE he has repented, AND the prayer includes a confession of sins. There is, in fact, no absence of repentance. “ (Albion, pg 76, post 751)

My example showing this assumption is incorrect is not an entirely unusual exception since my native non-denominational church taught the same doctrine which Abrahamist criticized.

I said the ministers rote prayer sincerely. He was offering a salvation that could be had by simply saying a prayer (which I said in sincerity). It was a salvation free of the inconvenience of repentance, or baptism, or change in immorality or other changes in my life. Who would not want that? Of course I sincerely wanted such a salvation if it was to be had without any other conditions.


“Those who pray the Sinner's Prayer in the way he explained are not doing it as intended.” Albion pg 76, #754
You and I AGREE on this point. This is NOT the intent and purpose of authentic prayer. Yet this admission we both share simply confirms, rather than distracts from Abrahamists’ specific point found in his quote at the beginning of this post.


So you fooled him. What does that prove about the Sinner's Prayer being a means of turning to the Lord after having repented of one's sins? Albion pg 76, #754

No, I did NOT “fool” the minister who offered salvation based on a single and simple prayer. I was NOT TRYING to FOOL anyone. I said the prayer SINCERELY.

I was VERY willing to have eternal life “given to me” at no moral cost or effort on my part other than saying the prayer this christian told me to say.

I agree that simply saying such a prayer proves little as a means of turning to the Lord AFTER repentance. But that was not abrahamists specific claim. Abrahamists original claim still stands correct. Saying a single and simple prayer, independent of other principles, does not guarantee one eternal life in authentic early Christian tradition.

The rest of your comments are other modifications, additions and assumptions to Abrahamists simple statement at the beginning of this post. If we allow his own words to stand unmodified, then I very much agree that Abrahamist is correct that salvation offered on the basis of a single and simple prayer is inconsistent with early christian tradition.


ABRAHAMIST :

Just as Albion is layering an interpretation onto your statement, I also am doing the same thing. If I am incorrectly interpreting your statement, set me right and correct anything that I might have said that is incorrect. I do NOT want to modify; add-to, or change your statement in any way, either to prove OR to disprove it. I apologize in advance if I have mis-represented you in this very specific and single point. If I understand you correctly, then I agree with you on this point.

Clearly
vinevidrok
 
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Clearly

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ALBION : I noticed that I posted my last reply (Post 756) in the wrong thread (why is catholicism so successful). I apparently pulled you into my error since you posted right after me in answer. I reposted your answer here so as to keep our posts in the correct thread. If you desire to, perhaps you can copy and past your last post here and I'll erase this specific copy of your post, if not, then below is the cut and past of your answer to my last post). I apologize to readers for any confusion the thread change might have caused....





Originally Posted by Clearly
Abrahamist statement we are discussing is

“There are churches that teach that if you ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart." Pg 74, #740 (emphasis is mine)

Albion,

Your various criticisms of Abrahamist simple statement (and my agreement with his statement) involve a series of modifications and assumptions about Abrahamists original statement.
No, they don't. Sorry. I essentially used what was written on the page right in front of both of us and called your attention to certain parts of it. Nevertheless, you don't appear to have an open mind, despite speaking as though you do, so I'll just let you pretend to have been persuaded by his presentation.
 
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groktruth

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Simple, full submission to God's will. From one of our Confessional prayers: "...increase in us true knowledge of Thee and of Thy Word, so that we may delight in Thy Will and walk in Thy ways; to the glory of Thy Holy Name. Amen".

We can not earn salvation, God gives it freely when we defy our will and submit to His.:)

Seems a bit general. And, where is listening in these prayers?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Seems a bit general. And, where is listening in these prayers?

The "listening", hearing and understanding of God's will comes to us through the Holy Spirit; through Scripture and the Church. The Holy Spirit is also responsible for our ability to submit to God.

That portion of the prayer that I quoted, and prayer itself is an act of submission.
 
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groktruth

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The "listening", hearing and understanding of God's will comes to us through the Holy Spirit; through Scripture and the Church. The Holy Spirit is also responsible for our ability to submit to God.

That portion of the prayer that I quoted, and prayer itself is an act of submission.

Maybe you could put this into the steps of a pathway?
 
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