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Yeh, I could agree to that wording. No splintering would be better, but of course the church that has had the greatest splintering of all is the Roman church that splintered at the time of the Reformation.
We can't pretend that this happened outside the Roman Catholic Church or that for the Protestant churches to have splintered is bad while the church that produced them by itself splintering somehow also remained intact.
Pfaffenhofen said:From my Catholic viewpoint, I do not see one change in Reformation that would make splintering worthwhile.
well, the first and most important step would be for the RCC to drop it's claims of Papal infallibility and supremacy. So if you really mean "... whatever it takes" that's where to start.The way forward is to go back to Unity, whatever it takes.
Why so many cores?
Why dont you use the RCC core and let's be together and ONE?
At the very least the Reformation drove the Catholic Church into making the reforms it did.
well, the first and most important step would be for the RCC to drop it's claims of Papal infallibility and supremacy. So if you really mean "... whatever it takes" that's where to start.
Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.At the very least the Reformation drove the Catholic Church into making the reforms it did.
If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!Papal infallibility
Wrong.
Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.
Look, we did not Reformation for Vatican II, not to talk about future Councils...
If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!
If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!
Yeah, we're refining ourselves like purest gold...I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're already the most-splintered church in Christendom. Where do you think the Lutherans, Reformed, Old Catholics and more came from but from RC splinterings? LOL
Well I don't know about you, but the only core I'll rely on is Christ alone. I don't need the 'RCC' core to be saved.
And I think the reformation happened because at the time only clergy could read from the Bible, and at the time a lot of false doctrine was being taught. And the common man was unable to own and read the Bible for themselves, much less in a language they could understand.
And then Martin Luther translated it into German (if I remember that documentary correctly).
Much good came out of Trent, but Trent was a reactive council, not proactive (Church History does however show that most counsels, even those which the Lutherans and Anglicans accept were reactive).
There were other attempts at reform, Waldo and Hus for example; which all ended badly.
If one reads the Augsburg Confession, the Catholic refutation, and the Apology of the AC; the only conclusion one can come to is that reform and reconciliation were desired, not schism.
Had the Pope convened a council as promised, which was to include the Lutherans; the outcome of the reformation may have been quite different. However, there were politics involved, and the hearts of both sides became hardened, so it never happened... So we have Trent instead, and we were not invited to the party.
Note that St. Francis was considered quit a radical in his day; yet the Pope at that time was open-minded enough to grant Francis an audience; and many to this day consider him one of the great Saints of the RC Church.
While this has worked to maintain unity in many respects; there is no denying that the doctrines of infallibility and supremacy has also caused, and still causes and maintains much disunity in Christendom.
At present, relations and open dialogue between Rome and the Lutherans have never been better; but fellowship is still a long ways off.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're already the most-splintered church in Christendom. Where do you think the Lutherans, Reformed, Old Catholics and more came from but from RC splinterings? LOL
Here you come you and your play with words. My English is bad but when Protestant splinter they remain Protestant. When someone branches out of the Catholic Church He is Catholic no more.
...and THAT's a play on words. When your church splits, it pretends that one piece, the RCC, isn't broken. In time there are dozen of pieces, but people like you pretend that all but one of them are not pieces.
Any of the Protestant churches could play the same game you're playing (and a few do so) and say, for example, "our church, the Lutheran Episcopal Church--Mexico Synod, is united. Oh yes, some others broke off from us so they're not real Lutherans anymore."
That's all that the game requires.
Yeah, we're refining ourselves like purest gold...
Yes, but with us, we say, and know, that The Catholic Church is united in our beliefs.
Let's forget what would be if ... if... if ...
I hope there will be unity.
Sorry but it must be under the Pope. No matter how much disunity it causes, Papacy is unbreakable.
I am glad that things go well between Lutherans and Catholics. I hope they will get even better.
to be continued with next posts to other members.
Thank you Mark, I almost thought you had completely forgotten about me.
I agree. I "came from" out of her to bear His reproach outside the camp.Here you come you and your play with words. My English is bad but when Protestant splinter they remain Protestant. When someone branches out of the Catholic Church He is Catholic no more. You say all right: "came from" it means that they do not belong to no more...
Debatable. I think not.Pfaffenhofen said:Wrong.
Which reforms? The council of Trent. No, there would have been reform one way or the other.
Look, we did not Reformation for Vatican II, not to talk about future Councils...
in other words when you talked about unity at any cost you meant at any cost to us, not to you.If we give up Papal Infallibility we would start splintering, which is the thing we want to amend !!
Well I don't know about you, but the only core I'll rely on is Christ alone. I don't need the 'RCC' core to be saved.
And I think the reformation happened because at the time only clergy could read from the Bible, and at the time a lot of false doctrine was being taught. And the common man was unable to own and read the Bible for themselves, much less in a language they could understand.
And then Martin Luther translated it into German (if I remember that documentary correctly).
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