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"Heaven is My throne,But you're main problem is that you have no scripture that tells you how God relates to time except those that say He is within time. He is patient, for instance, meaning He can wait for a time period without becoming irritated. He is longsuffering.
So if time works totally different for God it, seems to me that open theism still can't work.
"A thousand years is as a day"...
Then God still would know too much for it to make sense.
Because our concept of time didn’t exist in Jesus’ time, we can’t be too sure it’s correct, and therefore we shouldn’t presume to hold God to it. Yet God only describes Himself as working within time as we experience it, except He transcends our experience of time, being both before and after our time, and He isn’t held back from doing His will, whether it takes a moment or a millennium.Is not time in our existence that we can comprehend linked to the movements of the planets etc. as was spoken about the usefulness of the lesser heavens? *seasons, years, new moons etc. Our concept of time didn't even exist in Jesus' time. We have no idea if time exists in God's Heaven or if there is anything there that could be linked to time like here
I hope you realize that this comment completely destroys your position in God being outside of time. The reference is to God’s longsuffering—an attribute that only makes sense with respect to time.So if time works totally different for God it, seems to me that open theism still can't work.
"A thousand years is as a day"...
Then God still would know too much for it to make sense.
How many times did Satan tempt Jesus? Would he have continued tempting Him, had he been allowed to do so? But Jesus sent him away: Matthew 4:10 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Jesus wasn’t just dealing with Peter, but with Satan as well. Remember? Jesus told Peter that Satan had asked for permission to tempt Peter: Luke 22:31 (NKJV) And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift [you] as wheat.“I think I already covered the important parts. I find it impossible to believe that God doesn't just know the future because of being omnipotent.
I acknowledge that from our point of view, there are almost unlimited options for how the future plays out, depending on everyone's choices.
Just taking the instance of Jesus saying Peter would deny him three times. That's pretty specific. How could he guess that exact number unless he just knew? He could guess Peter would do a certain thing because of his personality, but, no, Jesus knew exactly how it would play out.
If it does, then you’ve ceded your position. You’ve just said God is in time, if “all” includes time."Heaven is My throne,
And earth is the footstool of My feet;
What kind of house will you build for Me?’ says the Lord,
‘Or what place is there for My repose?"
"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
Doesn't all include time?
One more thing—Jesus is lord of roosters, too. Don’t you think He could delay the rooster’s crowing, if He needed to?
Sounds like Calvinism.Surely Jesus knew not only Peter’s weaknesses, but also what permission had been granted to Satan, as in how many times Satan was allowed to tempt Peter.
One more thing—Jesus is lord of roosters, too. Don’t you think He could delay the rooster’s crowing, if He needed to?
I appreciate that!No, I I think it's actually saying time doesn't exist for God, but I'm willing to try and look at it from another viewpoint.
I guess we need to talk about what "subject to time" means. If it means that God has to wait until certain days come or until some response from someone occurs, in order to complete some activity relating to those days or entities, then God appears to be subject to time. He waited 400 years before the Israelites could come out of Egypt, and part of that was dealing with the Israelites, and another part was dealing with the Amorites. Gen 15:13-16. Could God have dealt differently with either? I'm sure He could, but His word tells us He waited. And 2Pet says it was like waiting less than a day for Him, but He still waited--He was longsuffering toward the Amorites. This is not an aberration, but a common theme in the scriptures. God gives time for repentance. He waited 40 days to see if the Ninevites would repent, and they did.Um, no just the opposite. God is over and through and in as he sees fit. He's not bound by creation. If he's over time, he's not subject to time.
I think you've moved from my statement to something else. I never suggested Satan always has to ask for permission. But in this case, as I quoted, he did. Here's another version that uses your "permission" wording, if it helps:Sounds like Calvinism.
I think it's going too far to assume Satan asks permission of God ever time he does something, and Greg Boyd, open theist, has been helpful in my understanding of this.
Did God control time, or just the time pieces? Hezekiah was able to watch the sun move back up the steps, but if time actually backed up, Hezekiah would have just repeated those minutes, forgetting the part that didn't actually happen.Because he has complete control, it wouldn't matter if he didn't see the future, because he can control it. We know he can control time, because he did it twice in the Bible. The obvious and best known is Joshua 10:12 and the other (that might lead to interpretational differences) is 2 Kings 20:8-11 for king Hezekiah.
If God created and wanted the angels to rebel, then they weren't rebelling. One can't disobey God by doing exactly what He wants. And if God punishes the angels or humans for doing exactly what He wanted them to do, God is unjust.The only question is whether God created angels to rebel, and man to sin. That is one logical position, even if it is derived from a doctrine outside of the Bible. It would seem unjust; however, to punish the angels and humans who sinned, when they were just following their purpose.
If, however, people, angels and any other creature were created to learn and succeed and come to God willingly and not be pre-programmed androids, only then can our situation on earth start to make some sense.
Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.guess we need to talk about what "subject to time" means. If it means that God has to wait until certain days come or until some response from someone occurs, in order to complete some activity relating to those days or entities, then God appears to be subject to time. He waited 400 years before the Israelites could come out of Egypt, and part of that was dealing with the Israelites, and another part was dealing with the Amorites. Gen 15:13-16. Could God have dealt differently with either? I'm sure He could, but His word tells us He waited. And 2Pet says it was like waiting less than a day for Him, but He still waited--He was longsuffering toward the Amorites. This is not an aberration, but a common theme in the scriptures. God gives time for repentance. He waited 40 days
So if He’s not subject to time, then He can see the future, but can’t necessarily be in the future? That seems like a strange limitation, suggestive of the crystal ball idea I brought up before.Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.
I think it relates because that’s how the Bible describes Him. There’s no biblical support for God’s “seeing” into the future—just suppositions of people trying to figure out how God can “declare the end from the beginning”.Of course God can choose when to act. I'm not sure how that really relates. It's not as if he is capable of getting bored. It's not our kind of waiting.
Did God control time, or just the time pieces? Hezekiah was able to watch the sun move back up the steps, but if time actually backed up, Hezekiah would have just repeated those minutes, forgetting the part that didn't actually happen.
Same thing with Joshua, et al. They experience time, while the time pieces (sun and moon) were stopped. Just like when you fall back at the end of daylight savings time, your clocks will jump back an hour, but you haven't gone back in time.
God does things in sequence everywhere we read about Him doing things. And sequence of activity is indicative of time passage. If the word "time" trips us up, sequence gives a concept that can avoid the word, but still conveys a "before" and "after".
Augustine didn't like this idea. He thought God must have created the universe instantaneously, because God exists outside of time, and therefore He can ONLY do something instantaneously, and everything at the same time. If this is true, then it isn't something the bible confirms, because the bible talks about the order of things God does. On day 1, He made the light, THEN (a time word) He separated the light from the darkness. He hovered over the face of the waters on day 1, THEN He separated the waters from the waters on day 2.
If God created and wanted the angels to rebel, then they weren't rebelling. One can't disobey God by doing exactly what He wants. And if God punishes the angels or humans for doing exactly what He wanted them to do, God is unjust.
Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.
Of course God can choose when to act. I'm not sure how that really relates. It's not as if he is capable of getting bored. It's not our kind of waiting.
It doesn’t even say the halt was instantaneous. If there was time for a slow-to-stop sequence, it might have thrown the Israelites’ foes for a loop, but not done devastating damage—maybe some ocean sloshing here and there.It's not entirely clear what happened. Did he stop the earth from rotating (while at the same time protecting the earth from the inertial chaos that would normally ensue when you rapidly change your speed from almost 1000 mph to zero), or did he take the battle out of their normal time reference (explaining why the event was not recorded anywhere else on the earth). Or does he just snap his godly fingers and will it to happen, which of course wouldn't require explaining.
I can imagine that this was potentially more devastating than Joshua’s event, because it reversed the world’s rotation, if that’s how God did it, in a relatively short amount of time. But considering it was an artifact of the light, and not the light source itself being described, it might allow for more of those other explanations you allude to. Like a bright meteor flying overhead or a very large and bright solar flare at dusk?? But whatever it was, with Hezekiah’s decision on which way it should go not provided until last minute, it makes the miracle pretty spectacular.Hezekiah's miracle could have been a simple refractive trick, impossible for humans of the day, but conceivable hundreds of years from now, (if anyone cared to dedicate resources to it for no benefit.) though possibly simple for a super-being.
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