Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Then Paul should have answered the jailer this way:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized, and you will be saved."
But he didn't. Yes, the jailer and his house were baptized, but being baptized wasn't part of the answer to the jailer's question.
Baptism is a sign of obedience as a child of God; not part of the process in becoming a child of God.
It does not matter whether or not one is baptized before or after salvation, since baptism is a form of grace in itself.Then Paul should have answered the jailer this way:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized, and you will be saved."
But he didn't. Yes, the jailer and his house were baptized, but being baptized wasn't part of the answer to the jailer's question.
Baptism is a sign of obedience as a child of God; not part of the process in becoming a child of God.
i don't think it is legit to equate a dead faith with a different, saving faith. James' point was that those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith have an unproductive faith. Not an "unsaving faith". James wrote to believers. He wanted all believers to demonstrate their faith.There is a dead faith and there is a saving (live) faith.
Though included, the text does not demand that baptism is necessary for salvation.It does not matter whether or not one is baptized before or after salvation, since baptism is a form of grace in itself.
That is why they got baptized.
But Peter did emphasized it as a part of salvation.
AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."Thanks,
Ed
What Aviela said.
If however we just believe as a matter of fact then our faith is no different than that of demons who also believe.
JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
If we state we believe in Christ yet behave like demons, our belief is lip service and our deeds would testify to what we really believe.
Confession is for all sin even the unintentional. It's a pivotal part of how we can receive Gods grace for all our sin. ...ask and receive.
Not saying I agree or disagree with the loss of salvation in general or in regards with diliberate sin but think it's an important question to pose. Following ref. to the loss of crown an beining Luke warm May signify the possibility off a loss but in some ways one may also argue that one never have really accepted Gods salvation in the first place:
Revelation 3:11-19 New King James Version (NKJV) 11 Behold,[a] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and
the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of
heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The Lukewarm Church 14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the
creation of God: 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[c] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothingand do not know that you are
wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be
clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Not suggesting one can remove our salvation but that our decisions / loss of faith / whether or not we accept salvation and God as our Savior affect our salvation. Ask and receive / confession and repentance seem to be crucial in both or and nt. Why was David spared?? ...because he was truly repentant.
Was Abraham justified before Isaac was born or after he tried sacrificing him?i don't think it is legit to equate a dead faith with a different, saving faith. James' point was that those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith have an unproductive faith. Not an "unsaving faith". James wrote to believers. He wanted all believers to demonstrate their faith.
But this doesn't address my point about the so-called faith of demons. James never said or suggested that what they believed about God was a dead faith.
Depends how you look at it.Just a quick clarification to the above post. The Philippian jailer was saved by his faith, not his baptism.
and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household [because]
having believed in God with his whole household.
He and his household believed and were saved, therefore he and his household were baptized.
Heaven is for people who want to go to Heaven.
Heaven is for people who want to be adopted into the family of God.
Salvation is a process.
In some instances in the Bible salvation is synonymous with justification, which is instantaneous.
Yet Abraham was justified only 12+ (?) years later when he tried sacrificing Isaac.
Yet, he was proclaimed righteous when he believed that he would have a son (Isaac).
Salvation is a process ... there are levels... there is progress.
Once we understand this, we understand salvation.
If we do not understand this we make up theological doctrines with catchy acronyms like OSAS vs OSNAS ... grrr.
We say - I am born again! when I put My faith In Christ, as if God was not working in our lives prior to it.
Maybe another thread ...
Our walk with God is a process and I may even contemplate at times differing levels of faith etc but We were not told believe and live and wait 10 years and you might be be saved. We are told we ARE justified by faith and HAVE peace with God and HAVE access by faith to grace. It does not say in the future we will be saved.
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from Gods wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were Gods enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been
reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received
reconciliation. Rom 5:9-11
However, I totally agree that we should be active Christians and I do think we can lose faith / obedience and think there is the possibility of loss of salvation if we refuse God as our Lord.
2 Corinthians 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
So many other examples also but yes as Christians our faith should be active.
We ought to keep in mind that we are talking about new covenant theology as opposed to old test. Theology in which is relevant to Solomon. However, Again in the following passage it does not say that Abraham and David we're save through baptism. Abraham believed...
Romans 4:1-6
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutbut not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.[a] 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from
works:
Also:
Romans 3:21-30 New International Version (NIV) Righteousness Through Faith 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness,
because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised
through that same faith.
Not meaning to be long winded but on this point of what salvation is seems quite clear to me.
Depends how you look at it.
Welcome to CF
If you believe baptism is purely symbolic and practically is meaningless then yes, in this opinion baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
If you believe that salvation is a process consisting of steps, then baptism is one of those steps.
If you believe baptism in itself is a grace of God then it is a part of salvation.
If you believe salvation and justification are synonymous and instantaneous ... then the Bible would make no sense and we develop camps of OSAS vs OSNAS with each one carrying his own set of verses.
In my opinion ...
Thanks,
Ed
How about a statement like this:I'd just like to state that baptism is not meaningless to me just as works are not meaningless to me but, IMO, they are not salvation.
Baptism absolutely and definitely plays one of the major roles in salvation.
It is one of the forms of grace we are given.
yeah I agree
OK. But judging is one thing and salvation is another.
Going to Heaven is not a matter of judgement, but that of grace and love.
The people of the OT were planning on going "to their fathers" and the place was Sheol.
Once, at one of my many moment of theological zeal,I did a study on each and every instance of Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Burning Lake, Tartarus, and on general understanding on the difference between Darkness and Deep Darkness.
Yes, there are "levels" in Sheol ... Abraham's Bosom is on top, the only place of comfort.
After all these studies I came up with this conclusion.
Outside of the Abraham's Bosom, in the best of its neighborhoods, Sheol/Hades is a sad place. In the worst of its neighborhoods, Sheol it is bad, really bad place.
The best I can say about Abraham's Bosom, it is a place of comfort, but not necessarily the place of Joy.
I am digressing ...
Yeah that is what about I learned at the seminary too
The descent of Christ to Hades does denote that He emptied it out with his resurrection all the OT people were raised with Him. The Heaven and Hell how are two different places without any connection in between for per Christ's parable of the wealthy man and Lazarus there is still communication and there are levels.
Yep I agree that it is dangerous game anyhow you summed it up pretty well for meYes, the Jewish saints of old, the Kings you mentioned, could not have been saved through keeping the Law.GAL 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.Of course they got saved ... but not before making a lengthy detour to a place like Abraham's Bosom (or maybe even a bit lower) and wait for Christ to come to hell for 3 days after His crucifixion and preach the gospel.
Christ made it for us much easier by opening the Heaven to the masses ...
absent from the body present with the Lord.
Do we judge people outside of church? No, as per your Corinthians text.
Do we judge each other inside? Yes.
But do we judge each others' ultimate goal? Heaven or Hell?
No.Dangerous game.
However, the Biblical characters are there for all to see, understand and try to learn what they did.
I do not judge anyone in the context of eternal salvation - even Hitler or other destructful characters history presents.
Yet I weigh (or judge) every act the saints committed in the Bible.
Thanks,
Ed
Oh, you should attend ... move.Yep we can investigate and should for we learn more about our faith def. no harm to do that at all.... We can and should avoid sinful individuals for the fear or imitating of getting laxed towards our own salvation for sure that is what Paul is talking about and I agree. But as far as people outside the realm of the church we cannot judge that was the point of the verse and maybe since Israel is the precursor of Christianity does fall under the umbrella of "judging the ones who are in the church" BTW I am impressed by your knowledge of theology here
You must be a great Bible study leader EdIf we were closed I would attend them too
How about a statement like this:
Each act of grace, mercy and love towards us is the salvation process of God - from drawing us to ending up in Heaven.
IMO if that were the case the thief on the cross would be fresh out of luck and I don't see scriptures supporting that as I explained here in the previous post #169
However, I do believe there is a process to our salvation but not to the same extent as you describe. For instance, God can draw us before we r saved and then we can accept or reject and after we accept we grow in faith and discernment etc but IMO we are already saved once we accept and believe. Following passages come to mind regarding living a consciously Christian life / having a living faith to use your term and will explain my views regarding the importance of works in our lives:
Most def. we are saved the moment we belief even if we are just starters ... Even the catechumens of the church are considered saved not only the full members through baptism.... Like I said baptism too is NOT the precursor to salvation it is just a further facilitator
It is the grace of the Holy Spirit sealed on our souls just like Christ showed through his own baptism...We see the spirit in the form of he dove; we hear the voice of God and etc. It is the actual manifestation of the Holy Trinity present
But by no means the belief and acceptance of Christ as our savior is not enough to salvation....It is like we are given MORE than just belief we are also given a "bigger weapon" when we are baptizedJust like the Apostles baptized all who were confessing that JC was their savior...
The thief on the cross was baptized by Christ right then and there for he had no time; he was minutes away from the Kingdom of God. That does not mean that baptism is pointless or unecessary that means that baptism was annulled for Christ is ultimately the one who can exercise the waiving away of a ritual such as the baptism. Yeah he can make exceptions such was the exception of the Apostles baptized with water instead they were baptized with fire
Baptism is a gift we are given by Christ and a commandment ...It is like we are given a gift that we can use to keep us in line as an aid to our salvation. We can deny it but if we can get it why not use it? That is my thinking about baptismBut I understand that some do not see it that way and I am ok with it
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?