Was Obama's election God's will?

[TeddyReceptus]

I agree, there was alot of Voter Fraud. Obama Stole the election.

He made sure we don't have to prove our citizenship to vote so that every illegal has a right to vote.

Now if only facts comported with your hypothesis. If there was "alot" (sic) of voter fraud then perhaps you can find "alot" (sic) to show us!

(PRO-TIP: In English it is "a lot". It means a "lot of something", not alot. There is an english word "allot" which means to give or apportion.)

 

[Ronald]

I'm one who believes and have been taught that once saved / always saved. Faith is a gift. You can backslide but not lose it! It's a spiritual transformation whereby you SEE SPIRITUALLY AND COMMUNE WITH GOD. HELLO! The best scholars teach that once saved, you can drift, stumble and fall but if your roots are deep you can't lose your salvation. You either have it or you don't. Your lack of understanding the scriptures and my explanations particularly when I said you had to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, you thought I was referring to water baptism. Ignorance to be born again is or what faith is. The Holy Spirit does not makes mistakes by saving people that will somehow lose it later on. Therefore, as I say and scholars as well, you didn't lose it, you never had it.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

I'm one who believes and have been taught that once saved / always saved. Faith is a gift. You can backslide but not lose it!

Yes, that is what you were taught. Indeed it is a common teaching among some sects of Christianity.

And interestingly enough; it is a mechanistic explanation for something that isn't really verifiable, now is it?

For instance: I lost my faith, so in order for my experience to fit into your world it must be that I never had it in the first place.

That makes you feel better, but for me, who ACTUALLY FELT THAT FAITH it doesn't really work.

After I'm long gone from here you'll be able to comfort yourself by reminding yourself that I never had faith, but of course you would be wrong.

It's a spiritual transformation whereby you SEE SPIRITUALLY AND COMMUNE WITH GOD. HELLO!

No doubt that is what you were taught and it feels that way to you. But that is only you and your congregation.

The best scholars teach that once saved, you can drift, stumble and fall but if your roots are deep you can't lose your salvation.

"the best scholars"? Sounds like you might be treading on the "No True Scotsman Fallacy".

You either have it or you don't. Your lack of understanding the scriptures and my explanations particularly when I said you had to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, you thought I was referring to water baptism.

Actually again you are wrong!!! You see I understand the difference as you fundamentalist/evangelicals think of it. However I also know that the term can be applied to what happened to me; just plain ol' baptism.

You see, many of you fundamentalists decided that just being baptised wasn't enough, it had to be "transformative". For me it was "transformative" in that I was in junior high at the time and I felt it quite meaningful.

Ahhh, but the Fundamentalists say "that isn't enough! It has to feel super-duper special!"

So you see since you are dealing with what people "feel" and you can't really know what they feel you can always comfort yourself that we simply didn't feel the "right" way!

It's a wonderful unfalsifiable set of claims.

And I won't even get into the "if I desperately wanted to feel God, why did I fail to feel his presence, even though I worked hard at it?"

Ignorance to be born again is or what faith is.

LOL! Your pride is showing. All these things I understand quite well. The fact that I don't wish to discuss them only through the lens of your particular sect's version of them is not an indictment of my knowledge or lack thereof.

You see I'm quite familiar with a variety of evangelical, charismatic, fundamentalist, whatever type beliefs. I understand Dispensationalism somewhat. And I understand that some of the "fundamentalist" views or sects arose relatively recently (as in the last 150 years or so) out a renewed view of Christianity.


I understand that many of the sects such as yours that wish to get back to the "roots" of Christianity are relatively recent beliefs in the larger history of the Church. I am familiar with the development of the "orthodoxy" during the early years of the Faith, I understand the debates existent around apocryphal literature/gospels, I understand the drive to coordinate the orthodoxy, the fights over the creeds and the heresies, I understand some of the reasons for the Nicene creed, I understand the development of the trinitarian doctrine, I understand the existence of Johannine Comma and how it relates to trinitarianism, etc. etc. etc.

You seem to think me wholly ignorant because I refuse to limit the discussion solely to what your particular sect defines as the terms.

The Holy Spirit does not makes mistakes by saving people that will somehow lose it later on. Therefore, as I say and scholars as well, you didn't lose it, you never had it.

And I say you are wrong. But you go ahead and sit in judgement. Crawl up to the Right Hand of the Father and judge the quick and the dead.

As a quick reminder of something God probably would like to remind you about:

Matt 7:1

He put it in the Gospel for a reason I assume.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

How do you know faith doesn't work? If I prayed for $1B and didn't wake up rich the next day, does that mean my faith failed me?

 

[TeddyReceptus]

How do you know faith doesn't work? If I prayed for $1B and didn't wake up rich the next day, does that mean my faith failed me?

That has nothing whatsoever to do with my experience with faith.

I suggest you read through the discussion I am having with Ronald but let me give you the "short version":

I used to believe in God. I had "faith" he was there. However the problem that I struggled with was that I never really 'felt' he was there. I was troubled by this, but I accepted that perhaps this was what my relationship with the ineffible God was like.

After years of struggling to understand why I didn't feel anything that ever brought me a sense of "peace" with my feelings I decided to look more closely at my beliefs. Did my beliefs correspond to what I saw around me? Was there a better explanation?

And in the end I realized I had no reason to "believe" in something that could easily be explained by it not being there.

Oh I'll admit at a couple of points I wondered why I could find no peace no matter how hard I tried, no matter how earnestly I prayed. But I was able to make it through those times realizing that sometimes "God answers with 'no'."

Well, of course if you have a lifetime of no response of any meaningful sort it becomes more reasonable to assume that God simply isn't there.

That was what I was talking about.

Ronald wishes to define "Faith" in a special way so he can make sense of what he's been told is "faith". My experience doesn't fit with that so it is necessary for him to tell me I didn't feel what I felt.

His sects interpretation is not unique, there are some who claim that faith cannot be lost, so for them the only way to understand this is to simply denigrate the feelings and thoughts of others. It helps them make sense of the world.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

What do you mean no response of any meaningful sort? What were you looking for? Are you still seeking?

 

[TeddyReceptus]

What do you mean no response of any meaningful sort? What were you looking for? Are you still seeking?

Anything that would indicate it was "real".

Any sort of experience that made it feel like there actually was a God up there.

And in retrospect anything that I thought could have been a signal was more easily explained by more prosaic reasons.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Have you ever been in love? How do you know it was real? What kind of signal were you expecting?

(I'm asking because I've been where you are, or so it seems).

 

[Ronald]

And interestingly enough; it is a mechanistic explanation for something that isn't really verifiable, now is it?

Yes, it is but I don't care to do another 10 pages for someone who does not believe in God.
It's funny and somewhat odd how an atheist can get offended about someone trying to refute and deny away his past apparently valuable, treasured belief in God!

Actually again you are wrong

I was also taught that all scripture is spiritually discerned, which is pretty much exclusive to those who have the Spirit in them.

This is some argument, standing firm stubbornly stating I am an atheist ... but I did believe in God ... I did ... I did ... I swear ... It was real ... as if I was trying to steal something precious from you.
No, you just want to have that as an excuse not to belief -"I had faith once ... for 30 years ... and I'm very well learned you see about this and that ... I ran the full gammitt ... but now I've realized it was a myth, a very cleverly devised man-made myth ... at least no one can tell me I didn't make a valiant effort". Your current disbelief must be validated by all your efforts of course. You want to be fair with yourself and that of course is the rational thing to do. I suppose you might even think if there was a small chance that there was a God, He wouldn't blame you ...because He'd know, you gave it your all!

Listen this is way off topic, so let's just say whatever you went through in life, it did not save you, because RIGHT NOW YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, YOU'RE AN ATHEIST, so it doesn't really matter where you came from, it's where we go from here and where we will end up that matters

And with that, you disagree with the OP. Ok, let's move on.

This question is just gnawing at me though. Why do atheists visit a Christian Forum if not to attempt to mock, belittle and dismantle our faith? Why not just associate with atheists/only sites?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Most everyone has been through valleys of doubt at some point in their life. However, there is hope for everyone. Those of us who have faith are the fortunate ones, and we need to show grace to those who have yet to find it. We are to be the light to the world, not question others for being in darkness.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

It's funny and somewhat odd how an atheist can get offended about someone trying to refute and deny away his past apparently valuable, treasured belief in God!

It was a very long difficult process for me. The fact that I put in a LOT of work in understanding "sprituality" is an indication I actually cared.

If that offends you, then you are even more amazing than I thought.

This is some argument, standing firm stubbornly stating I am an atheist ... but I did believe in God ... I did ... I did ... I swear ... It was real ... as if I was trying to steal something precious from you.

Wow, you are really upset that someone could have put a lot of effort into understanding their faith, doesn't it?

Is it because I came to a different conclusion than you?

LOL!

No, you just want to have that as an excuse not to belief

I can't express enough to you how shocking it is to see a "Christian" denigrate another person so cleanly as you seem to be doing.

Bravo. You are representing your "faith" quite clearly to me.

I wish I could explain to you how my years of soul searching actually felt very important to me. It wasn't easy.

But you wish now to denigrate it. You wish to attack my efforts.

Good for you.

Your current disbelief must be validated by all your efforts of course. [/quo]te

My efforts were part of my experience. As I've said numerous times now, I'm quite happy faith works for you. I have many Christian friends and I am glad it works for them. I'm glad it brings them joy and happiness.

But your actions are kind of chilling. You seem really angry that I didn't come to your conclusion.

So you continually try to tell me what I did or didn't feel, what I do or don't know, etc. And at every turn you seem to be in error.

I suppose you might even think if there was a small chance that there was a God, He wouldn't blame you ...because He'd know, you gave it your all!

Not really. I assume my choice is what it is. If God is real he can do whatever he wishes with me. If I am deserving of damnation then so be it. It is sad, and I couldn't do it to someone if the roles were reversed but I'm not God.

This is why I would never want to take someone's faith from them. What if I'm wrong?

You see, as an atheist, I don't want to take your faith from you! I would be glad if your faith allowed you to respect others who don't share it, but I understand why this upsets you.

Listen this is way off topic, so let's just say whatever you went through in life, it did not save you, because RIGHT NOW YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, YOU'RE AN ATHEIST,

I kinda figured that out already.

And with that, you disagree with the OP. Ok, let's move on.

You'll note I don't disagree with your right to have whatever opinion you wish even based on your faith, but I find it kind of sad that you would assume that our choice for president, which we all took in the belief it was the right thing is akin to a "punishment from God".

I find your approach overall extremely limited and intolerant those who don't share your particular faith.

Your earlier points fit in well after my discussion with you here about faith.

You are incapable of accepting that others can disagree with you and not be effectively utterly wrong.

Your intolerance is predicated on your "faith". Your faith is such that it can be the only one. It is the ONLY one that understands what "faith" is, it is the only one that understands "God", and those who disagree with you are likely in service to God's Punishment for our nation.

This question is just gnawing at me though. Why do atheists visit a Christian Forum if not to attempt to mock, belittle and dismantle our faith? Why not just associate with atheists/only sites?

Because people like you exist in our nation! Your intolerance is interesting to see and I don't think it has a place in a plural society as a political philosophy.

And again, as I said too many times to count, that I'm happy you have your faith! I have many Christian friends whom I like and I associate with.

I don't think I'd like your brand of "Christianity" but that doesn't mean I should have any say about it at all!

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Teddy - is there no part of you who wants to believe in Jesus anymore? You 100% sure Jesus lied to us?

 

[Ringo84]

Our country is great because it was born a Christian nation with God fearing leaders.

We are not a Christian nation. Never have been, never will be.

A nation of Christians is not the same thing as a nation with a Christian government.

Now to answer the OP's question: Yes, I think that Obama's reelection was "God's will". God is non-partisan. If it's "God's will" when Republicans win, why is it not His will when Democrats win?
Ringo

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

And a Christian government is not a Christian nation, either. Strange to think the government defines the nation.

 

[Ringo84]

Since my lawyer hasn't yet drawn up the necessary notarized legal papers, and I don't want to cause you undue pain and anguish, I won't quote you.

So then what is a "Christian nation"? And if the government doesn't define the nation, what does?
Ringo

 

[TeddyReceptus]

Teddy - is there no part of you who wants to believe in Jesus anymore? You 100% sure Jesus lied to us?

Rather hamfistted attempt at channeling CS Lewis, don't you think?

I am not entirely sure I believe Jesus actually existed, but if he did I am dubious of his being homoousios with God (even if that concept wasn't actually firmed up in Christianity until a couple hundred years later at Nicaea).

I'm curious why you would frame your question in terms of "Jesus lied"...in that I am unaware of any accepted Gospel that Jesus wrote. In fact I am unaware of any synoptic Gospel that was written anywhere near Jesus supposed lifetime! So how could Jesus lie to me?

 

[Rubiks]

I don't think Romney or Obama is part of God's will but he can still use either candidate to accomplish good

 

[Ronald]

Most everyone has been through valleys of doubt at some point in their life. However, there is hope for everyone. Those of us who have faith are the fortunate ones, and we need to show grace to those who have yet to find it. We are to be the light to the world, not question others for being in darkness.

You are absolutely right if you are personally acquainted as in neighbors, workplace or family but as you have experienced on the internet, atheists think they have been illuminated away from Jesus. It's like a wall constructed of misunderstanding, misinterpretations, doubts, lies, etc. I don't have a gift to lead others (Eph 4:11) and I do believe it requires that specific spiritual gift. However, I can warn them whether they like it or not, my way of planting seeds. Some seeds are scattered on rocky soil and stolen away; some are planted in shallow soil and never develop roots; some grow for awhile but the thorns and thistles grow around them and choke the life out of them. The seed which is planted in fertile soil, grows and produces fruit. Jeff, can people on the net really see our fruit and light? I'm just gonna give these kind scripture from now on because my words aren't light --my as well give them the real McCoy, aye mate?
I woke up thinking that there are tares amongst the wheat that disguise themselves as seekers and they end up wasting a lot of our time spinning our wheels. Some may have an honest curiousity to log on to the forum because they are drawn and truly want answers, but if they are already convinced after all their efforts that there is no God, then they are just logging on to go against Jesus and His followers in some way. You are either for Him or against Him. I'm a straight shooter and sometimes people don't like it.

 

[Ronald]

It was a very long difficult process for me. The fact that I put in a LOT of work in understanding "sprituality" is an indication I actually cared.

Let's just agree that I don't believe you were ever born again or had relationship with God (as you stated) and this IS CRUCIAL. You keep saying that you never had a experience, change or mind or "feeling as you say" or anything to confirm God and that is what I've been saying all along. When someone gives you a gift, you receive it and thank them. You are admitting you never received anything!
Your definition of faith equilvalent to faith that a baby has that his Mommy will feed him, faith that the sun will rise because it has for thousands of years, faith in someone you can trust. But spiritual faith is different, it is a quickening, a cleansing, a gift of a new spirit and confirmation that God is with you. That's all I said from the start. I'm actually agreeing with you that you never had a relationship. Any pastor of priest on the planet would say a relationship with God is part of our faith.

If that offends you, then you are even more amazing than I thought.

I'm not angry at all.

I can't express enough to you how shocking it is to see a "Christian" denigrate another person so cleanly as you seem to be doing.

Denigrate translation > the truth hurts. Your efforts amounted to nothing and that is your disappointment. Maybe someday you can just ask God for the gift and He'll simply give it to you, because you can't earn it.

I wish I could explain to you how my years of soul searching actually felt very important to me. It wasn't easy.

It seems like you can't get over it and you still care?

But your actions are kind of chilling. You seem really angry that I didn't come to your conclusion.

Being without God is chilling and empty.

So you continually try to tell me what I did or didn't feel, what I do or don't know, etc. And at every turn you seem to be in error.

Again, if you were looking for a touchy feely experience, you were misled. It does begin with the word, your mind and but most it's God lifting a blinding veil so you can see.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

atheists think they have been illuminated away from Jesus.

It's almost like you are incapable of reading what I write.

I wasn't illuminated "away" from Jesus, I looked at the evidence as I saw it and failed to see anything there that indicated it was real.

I am not saying it is ipso facto NOT REAL, just that I failed to see any evidence.

Hence I am an atheist.

It's like a wall constructed of misunderstanding, misinterpretations, doubts, lies, etc.

And to you anything that doesn't comport with your view of things is what you define as "misunderstanding, misinterpretations...lies".

You see, I have actually (obviously) put a great deal of effort into understanding the faith as I've shown on this thread. I'm quite familiar with almost every point you have raised, despite your repeated accusations that I am not.

The real problem you have with me is that I fail to arrive at the same point you did. And that simply doesn't fit into your view.

However, I can warn them whether they like it or not

Correction: you can berate them, insult them, denigrate their experience and generally speak down to them.

I'm not saying you should listen to me and become an atheist! I would never say that! Nor have I asked you to do that here.

I wouldn't want you to give up faith in God. BUT, by the same token, I would hope you would understand that not everyone has the same experience of "God" as you do.

And still some of us are as familiar with, sometimes even moreso, the soteriology and history of the Faith.

The fact that some atheists such as myself can be knowledgeable about faith should only be problematic for the weakest, most surficial brands of "faith". Certainly not a problem for someone like you.

, my way of planting seeds.

And I know you by the fruit you bear!

Some seeds are scattered on rocky soil and stolen away;

So it's not the sower or the seeds, it's the soil! A good workman always blames his tools.

Sorry, Ronald, but your seeds appear bitter and covered with corrosive substances.

Jeff, can people on the net really see our fruit and light?

I can see yours. If this is not actually your fruit, then I suggest you take a creative writing class so you can better learn how to represent your feelings and ideas more accurately.

I'm just gonna give these kind scripture from now on because my words aren't light --my as well give them the real McCoy, aye mate?

So it's Jeremiads from here on out, eh? Spit fire, my friend.

I woke up thinking that there are tares amongst the wheat that disguise themselves as seekers and they end up wasting a lot of our time spinning our wheels.

Have I not been clear that I am an atheist? (will admit I must change that icon there, but my words have been clear)

Or are you questioning that I was ever a believer? Oh, no you already made that clear. That if I was a believer I was in error, and if I wasn't a believer I'm a liar.

Again, your pride is so strong.

Some may have an honest curiousity to log on to the forum because they are drawn and truly want answers, but if they are already convinced after all their efforts that there is no God

Oh my! yet another error on your part! It must be painful to be in error just about every time you try to describe me!

I'm what is called a "weak atheist" in that I don't say "there is no God", that's a universal negative which cannot be proven. I merely say "I fail to see evidence for God so I fail to believe".

This is a far cry from saying "there is no God".

Again, I can see your shallowness of thought and understanding. Your faith is your bulwark, but it's also a wall against understanding others. By listening sometimes you can learn, and by learning perhaps you could better serve your Commission.

, then they are just logging on to go against Jesus and His followers in some way.

And can your faith not stand to even talk to atheists? Can your faith not stand it when someone says it is corrosive to public discourse when you call their political choice, made freely and in hopes of a better world, "a punishment from God"?

You are either for Him or against Him. I'm a straight shooter and sometimes people don't like it.

Your straight shots appear largely unaimed. Just firing off randomly at whatever is ahead of you is hardly an appropriate course of action.

You have been alarmingly off-target on me for much of this discussion. Your failure to understand what I'm clearly stating is saddening to me.

I suggest you sow your seeds on ground that can accept the kind of seeds you sow. You see, your impression that I am merely the soil waiting for your seeds is wrong. I have put a great deal of effort into cultivating my own crops. The fact that you don't like them is of no interest to me.

But please don't look at my fields and assume there is no crop there.