Was never really a Christian

[briareos]

As for me, the entire book of Galatians affirms that a Christian can fall from God, fall from grace, end up being in a place where Jesus no longer profits you, it actually uses all those words... that's what the whole book is pretty much about. The church of Galatia was going back to trusting in the Law for their salvation and Paul said "Who has deceived you? You were doing so well! If you do this you are fallen from grace, Jesus will profit you nothing and you are in a worse place than when you started"

The whole book of Galatians is a testimony that you can fall away from God and no longer be a child of God. The verses that testify of his saving grace, his everlasting love for us do not change that if we deny him, stop trusting in him, walk away from him... disown him that we will no longer spend eternity with him. Paul specifically said that if you continue to sin after you know God there is no longer any grace for those those sins, you have to ask forgiveness. We do have the ability to turn our backs on God and kill him in our life, we have the ability to do that and there is no reason to say that a true Christian can't possibly do that.

 

[mandelduke]

The question you ask is too difficult to answer let me rephrase it. Can a Christen loss his faith? Yes a Christen can loss his faith. Satin can take many things from Christens, faith, peace, confidence, but he cannot take your salvation.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Consider the case of King Saul

did the holy spirit stay with people back then? i do not think it did. the spirit of the Lord came and went at different times to people. was Saul anointed? maybe, but does that mean that Saul was saved just because Saul was anointed? God didn't want Israel to have a king and did not think that Saul was the man for the job. God had mercy or gave in & allowed Saul to be the king but Saul was like Obama. Saul looked great on the outside but had a dirty heart. Saul didn't want to follow after the heart of God like David did.

 

[Shane R]

Does the Holy Spirit stay with people now? Perhaps not (Psa 51:11). The Spirit of the Lord works as he pleases.

You need to look at the early narrative of Saul in 1 Samuel. There was nothing inherently wrong with him. His story is significant just as all the stories of the OT are because of what it can teach us now. The OT is the NT in figures, and the NT is the OT revealed and fulfilled.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Psa 51:11. The Spirit of the Lord works as he pleases. You need to look at the early narrative of Saul in 1 Samuel.

Saul was like Cain who killed bro Abel, or like Eve or the serpent in the garden. We are all capable of these things. We are all cursed with sin. In the New Testament, doesn't Christ promise, via the Holy Ghost, to never leave us nor forsake us?

 

[Shane R]

Deut 31:6-8, Jos 1:5, 1 Kings 8:57, 1 Chr 28:20, Psa 27:9, Heb 13:5.

How peculiar that most of the references are from the OT, which you have minimized.

The question is not of the Lord forsaking man, but of man forsaking him. He will let us disbelieve, fall from grace, and wander outside the sheepfold.

 

[aiki]

In a thread I just read the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was mentioned. In the thread it mainly had to do with changing faiths.

Example:
"If you really are a Christian you would never turn away from the Holy Spirit."
"But that person over there changed faiths."
"Then they weren't really a Christian."

Being guilty of the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" requires that one change the definition of a particular thing in an ad hoc fashion in order to escape challenges to the definition. In the case of what makes a Christian a Christian, however, we have an authoritative, common, and unchanging standard to refer to: the Bible. Concerning those who abandon their faith the Bible says:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Pointing to this verse in challenge of a person's claim to genuine salvation when that person claims he was once a Christian but has utterly abandoned his faith in Christ is not an ad hoc changing of the definition of what a "Christian" is. It is an appeal to a centuries-old defining standard.

I have a question for anyone who thinks that way.

Lets say we have two guys. They both grow up in Christian families and accept the Lord at a young age. They both share Jesus with their friends and then as youth they rededicate their lives, go into street ministry, and eventually go on some missions trips.

They both attend seminary and become pastors, get married and have kids.

Now, 10 years into their ministry their lives become quite different. One continues on being a pastor and a strong Christian till the day he dies. The other interprets things around him differently and instead leaves his Christian faith, never to return to it.

The question is, if the guy who left his faith was "never really a Christian", then what does it mean to "be a Christian"? What was his life missing that would have made him a "real Christian"?

See the verse above.

A person's salvation is all of God. Scripture makes this crystal clear. Our works have nothing whatever to do with our salvation. (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5) In fact, the Bible tells us that God chose His children "before the foundations of the world were laid." (Eph 1:4) God draws us to Himself through Christ (John 6:44) when we were His enemies and alienated from him in our minds by our wicked works (Col. 1:21) and thus utterly unable in and of ourselves to choose His salvation.

In light of how we are saved (all of God) how is it that the continuation of our saved state is totally dependent upon us? This doesn't make sense and it isn't an idea supported by Scripture. We are "accepted in the beloved" because we are forensically declared to be righteous, not because we are actually righteous. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and this alone is what makes us acceptable to God. God sees us in Christ and adopts us as one of His own. None of this is accomplished by us, however. It is all God's doing. And what God has done in saving us is never yielded to us by Him to continue or abandon as we please.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Selah.

 

[briareos]

Saul was like Cain who killed bro Abel, or like Eve or the serpent in the garden. We are all capable of these things. We are all cursed with sin. In the New Testament, doesn't Christ promise, via the Holy Ghost, to never leave us nor forsake us?

Well the issue is that if you want to say that salvation cannot be lost, you have to show that we do not have the ability to forsake God... not that God wont forsake us. The bible is clear, fornicators, adulterers, etc etc etc shall not inherit the kingdom of God, period... Paul preached that to Christians in the Church, not to sinners.... if you throw God away and go back to a life of sin you will not enter heaven.

 

[aiki]

Well the issue is that if you want to say that salvation cannot be lost, you have to show that we do not have the ability to forsake God... not that God wont forsake us.

If God won't ever forsake us, then He remains with us even when we believe we have forsaken Him. God's commitment to us is not contingent upon our commitment to Him. His acceptance of us was never based upon our behaviour or our commitment to Him but upon what Christ has done on the cross of Calvary. He loved us and gave His only Son for us when we were in complete rebellion toward Him and totally incapable of doing otherwise. In spite of this, God drew each of His children out of darkness and into His light. Why would a God who shows such tremendous commitment in forging a relationship with us suddenly go limp when we determine to forsake Him once the relationship has been secured? This doesn't make any sense. And its not biblical. Our relationship to our Heavenly Father was His doing, not ours. He reached out to us and drew us to Himself; we did nothing to initiate a relationship with Him. God did not adopt us into His family because we deserved to be adopted, because we were living in a way that warranted adoption, but because He decided He wanted us. He reached out for us and saved us when we were living in sin. Why, then, would our living in sin after being saved cause Him to withdraw His hand? It didn't stop Him from saving us, so why should it suddenly stop Him from keeping us saved?

Selah.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Deut 31:6-8, Jos 1:5, 1 Kings 8:57, 1 Chr 28:20, Psa 27:9, Heb 13:5.

Shane, the Bible says we can leave fellowship, not salvation. The references you are using here are saying that people left the fellowship, not salvation. Here are the references you mentioned: Deut 31:6-8, Jos 1:5, 1 Kings 8:57, 1 Chr 28:20, Psa 27:9, Heb 13:5.

 

[JoeyArnold]

You have to show that we do not have the ability to forsake God.

What does it mean to forsake God?

 

[briareos]

It means to forsake God.

 

[JoeyArnold]

It means to forsake God.

What does it mean to forsake God, seriously? What does it mean?

 

[briareos]

It means many things, such of as abandoning him, leaving him, not trusting him, not loving him, not seeking him, not wanting him, not obeying him, not following him, disowning him, not believing in him anymore, it means many things.

When a Christian decides they are no longer a Christian.

 

[IisJustMe]

Well the issue is that if you want to say that salvation cannot be lost, you have to show that we do not have the ability to forsake God... not that God wont forsake us. The bible is clear, fornicators, adulterers, etc etc etc shall not inherit the kingdom of God, period... Paul preached that to Christians in the Church, not to sinners.... if you throw God away and go back to a life of sin you will not enter heaven.

And if you repent?

 

[briareos]

Then you are forgiven.

 

[Pal Handy]

What does it mean to forsake God, seriously? What does it mean?

To forsake God means to turn your back on Him and to reject Him.

God loves us and has settled the sin problem between Himself and us by taking
all our sin, blame and shame on Himself and taking the punishment for
the sins of all men for all time by being judged by men and found guilty
and then put to death.

So now God has His arms opened wide to all men past, present and future
who will do one thing, receive His love by believing it to be real and true
by accepting Jesus Christ as their only means of forgiveness, salvation
from judgement and punishment of sin and eternal life.
(Jesus preached the gospel to those who had died before His arrival on the earth)

God will never reject any man that comes to Him in Christ but
we can reject God and His love and offer of forgiveness and eternal life.

We have the power to say no to God.
We have the power to forsake God and go another way.
We can turn our back on God's love and gifts and reject Him.

What fearful power God has given us in freewill but the consequences of this
power have eternal ramifications so what ever you do,
Do not forsake God....

 

[IisJustMe]

And if you repent?

Then you are forgiven.

But if you can lose your salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says it can't be restored. So how could you be forgiven?

 

[briareos]

It says they cannot be restored to repentance, you asked what if they repent. It does not say they are disqualified from being saved.

Hebrews 6.4-6 is describing individuals who experienced all the things listed and yet choose to walk away, it says they cannot be restored to repentance meaning you cannot get them to repent because after they have experienced everything listed, there is nothing left to compel them to come back to God. This is the same as the unpardonable sin, it was given in the instance of the pharisees who saw everything Jesus did and just chose to attribute all his work to the devil, it was a last ditch effort to refuse God at all costs, when they had no reasons to refuse God left they simply chose to say it was the devils power... it only represented their hearts that would spare no expense to refuse God, meaning God had to way to forgive them because they would not repent.

The bible is clear that all who call upon the Lord shall be saved, there is no one who cannot be saved and yet the bible does have scriptures like you noted... the issue is some people will not return to repentance, it is not a disqualification from God's end.

 

[briareos]

Hebrews 6.6

NIV
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

ESV
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

NAS
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

God's Word translation
Yet, they have deserted [Christ]. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God.

The idea is you cannot convince them to return.