Was never really a Christian

[Philis]

In a thread I just read the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was mentioned. In the thread it mainly had to do with changing faiths.

Example:
"If you really are a Christian you would never turn away from the Holy Spirit."
"But that person over there changed faiths."
"Then they weren't really a Christian."

I have a question for anyone who thinks that way.

Lets say we have two guys. They both grow up in Christian families and accept the Lord at a young age. They both share Jesus with their friends and then as youth they rededicate their lives, go into street ministry, and eventually go on some missions trips.

They both attend seminary and become pastors, get married and have kids.

Now, 10 years into their ministry their lives become quite different. One continues on being a pastor and a strong Christian till the day he dies. The other interprets things around him differently and instead leaves his Christian faith, never to return to it.

The question is, if the guy who left his faith was "never really a Christian", then what does it mean to "be a Christian"? What was his life missing that would have made him a "real Christian"?

 

[znr]

One doesn't have to identify as "Christian" to be saved, but most do.

 

[Dreamer28]

That's why I'm confused. I feel like the guy who left his faith and never returned. Although I'm a women. I have no idea. But I feel your post there.

 

[briareos]

There is plenty of scripture to lead many people to believe that it is possible to fall away from God.

It is possible to know God and through the course of time, mistakes, failures, events, to have your spirit beaten down to such an extent that you are led astray and begin to believe that it was never real.

That's what happened to me many years ago. I have since been reunited with God. But falling away is possible and it is by no means a fallacy.

 

[Shane R]

Those who use the 'never a real Christian' argument tend to say that what was lacking was the Holy Spirit. This doesn't fit well with other components of the prevailing theologies that would make this argument as they typically attribute any effort toward conversion to the intervention of the Spirit. I think it betrays some misunderstanding of the work of the Holy Spirit. Heb 6:4 speaks of even one who was enlightened by the Holy Spirit falling from grace. I consider the argument something of a straw-man or a shot in the dark.

 

[Hospes]

Philis,

I am one of the one's that believe a born again person's salvation is assured and is shown to be authentic by perseverance. It has to do with how I see the work of God in our salvation. This does not mean I believe a person "born of God" cannot fall away. It does mean I believe once a truly regenerated person has fallen, God will bring them back to himself.

 

[paul1149]

God will judge the secret things of the heart on the day when all things are revealed. I don't see grounds for anyone judging these things, either way. That guy who seemed to walk away might have been given a revelation at his moment of death, and may have bowed his heart once again. Or in the cases of some, the faith may never have been genuine. We are pretty good at firing off superficial judgments, but all they serve to do is keep forums busy.

It's certainly right to exhort and warn those who have fallen away, because very real consequences will ensue unless they repent. But the ultimate call is in God's perfectly capable hands.

 

[BFine]

On the other forum I frequent, the replies to
a similar question was presented and many replies
listed the following--

2 John 1:9-11
John 15:5

What was missing? abiding faith.

 

[someguy14]

Many choose worldly ways instead of God. Still no excuse for cursing "Scotsmen".
All races would fall into your term according to that way of looking at it. Adam. Noah.
The world enjoys trying to pass off mankinds traditions as facts. All was created by God. That means we have one way. Gods ways, Gods traditions. Not mankinds.
All are given a choice, serve God or serve the worldly lusts.

 

[blackstrawberry]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." -2 Corinthians 5:17-

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 8:38 - 39-

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand." -John 10:28 - 29-

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." -Romans 7:14-25- (NIV)

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." -Ephesians 1:11-14-

The Bible speaks of the theology of 'once saved, always saved' concept of the mankind's salvation. Once you are in God, you cannot be loosed nor be 'Un-Christian-ed.' All evil in the world may influence a person and it is Satan, the source of evil, who tempts us into sinning and falling away from God, but God says that once He has a hold of you, not even the mightiest evil shall prevail for He is greater than all. The Bible also speaks of preordained fates of Christians and that God gives His Spirit unto those who are to be saved. Be minded of the fact that He does not change His mind, ever. Therefore, it is my belief that God gave you the chance to your salvation because He preordained it to occur and that if you are to bear fruit that's in disagreement with what the Bible is saying, then you were never His to begin with. A Christian may sin, yes. He, however, can tell and be in an immediate repentance for what he has done wrong without his intentions, but HE CANNOT break away from God once he is saved. The Holy Spirit will never leave a Christian's heart.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Lets say we have two guys. They both become pastors. Now, 10 years into their ministry, one continues on being a pastor while the other leaves the faith.

Scotsmen still applies. Only Christ knows our hearts: appearances is not always everything. Hebrews says that what we see is made by things that are not seen. Christ promises to mature us in Christ so that we don't perish, Philippians 1:6.

Backsliding disables fellowship, or even life, but it doesn't undo God's promises. When God makes a promise God will & does keep His word.

Walking away from the faith is not completely possible because it's not simply a matter of feelings or actions but more a fact of identity of who we are & who Christ is making us to become.

 

[briareos]

Well none of those verses actually say that you cannot become unsaved, they say that you cannot be snatched away from God, that nothing changes his love for you, and that once your saved your changed, etc.

The entire book of Galatians proves that it is possible to at one point be saved but possibly end up not saved at all because he's talking to the church who he said had once ran very well but because that church was returning to the Law and not abiding in grace that Christ would no longer be of any profit to them at all.

Hebrews 6.4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

God will never stop loving us, but we can stop loving God and we can depart from God. I am not debating and I am not going to debate, but many people have good reasons to believe that apostasy is possible, it is not a frailness of salvation or a weakness of God's saving grace, it's the possibility of turning your back on God and leaving him. It is not possible for our trust in God to be failed, as long as we seek him he will take care of us, but it's possible to cease to want him and it is possible to leave him and fall away and as Hebrew 6 says, it's possible to never come back, not because God changed his mind about you but because you just wont repent.

 

[someguy14]

No true babylonian.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Hebrews 6.4-6.

We need people who can read ancient Greek who are willing to fully translate & interpret & apply Hebrews 6:4-6 for us.

The original words & meaning & context is vital in understanding this book, chapter, & passage.

We studied this during our Soteriology classes during Bible College. I am about to burst open because I really want to explain this farther but I want to wait & see if we have any ancient language scholars who can help us farther first.

If you can read Greek then please come help us out here.

 

[briareos]

I think the people who translated all the different versions of our bibles are good enough, I can post about 20 different translations if you like... those people can and do understand Greek.

Are you really willing to believe that some mistranslation removes the entire theme that these people were saved from these verses?

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come

and that the theme that they are not anymore is no where in these verses?

and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Even if some words were mistranslated... that's a huge leap. There are multiple words, phrases, statements that reinforce that, either you believe what we were given or you need the through all three verses out completely the entire paragraph leaves us with that idea, there is no way to change a few words and find a very different meaning.

Or we can go to the book of Galatians and talk about how Paul was telling them that they were going to lose Christ because they went back to the law. That's a whole book, entire chapters that are talking about nothing else but Paul telling an entire church that because they are going back to the law that Christ is no longer going to save them.

Galatians 5.1-4
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Or we can talk about

Hebrews 10.26 that there is NO MORE sacrifice for sin remains if we begin to keep deliberately sinning.

Jude 1.12 that there were men among them who were twice dead, who had been plucked up by the roots.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Contrast Hebrews 6 with 1 John 1:9.

 

[briareos]

Amen!

There is never a loss of hope in Christ.

All I am saying is that the bible does teach that it's possible to leave and never come back and if you do, God can't save you.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Philippians 1:6 is a promise that supports John 10:28-29.

 

[Hospes]

Briareos,

If you are serious about looking into the reasoning that some of us have for disagreeing with you on this, let me point you to a resource for you to look at carefully. (This forum stinks on digging into such topics as this.) Here you go:

Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, Chapter 40, page 746
If you send me your email, I'll send you the pages on the Hebrews passage.

But only if your serious.

 

[briareos]

Well I am serious on the issue, I have discussed this topic for years and I can find no reason to believe other than how I do, though I do understand why some people feel the way they do and I don't condemn them for it.

That being said I am not sure I am interested in much more study on it at the moment, I don't expect to see anything new on the topic. But feel free to email me.