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Was Lucifer (Satan) created with freewill?

praisehimalleluia

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Were angels created with freewill? The choice to obey or not to obey like us mankind?

In what state was Satan created? Was he given freewill to choose to obey or not to obey God? The reasoning of right from wrong?

I am just thinking how did Satan ever think of disobeying God if he did not know what was sin. Did he know right from wrong?
 
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Jeffz

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They must have had free will as they rebelled against the Creator God.

sa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

As it says above Satan willed to do so he apparently had the ability to make decisions as did those who followed him.
jeffrey
 
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praisehimalleluia

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So just as mankind, they were given free will. This means all Angels are given free will, cause Satan was an Angel loved by God before he rebelled with God - Isaiah 14:12 -" O Lucifer, Son of the Morning..."

If Angels were given free will, then those who chose to disobey, they joint Satan as demons right? they became the fallen angels.
 
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Jeffz

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consider the following scripture dealing with your question.

ev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So it says there was a great war in heaven, the greatest rebellion ever, that caused lucifer/satan and his angels to be cast down to earth. If you take time to read further in this chapter you will see that this enemy is out to hurt the and pursue the church.
But Praise God we already know who wins, Christ Jesus, us with him. Yea!!
have a great day and you have some good questions.

Jeffz
 
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Were angels created with freewill? The choice to obey or not to obey like us mankind?

In what state was Satan created? Was he given freewill to choose to obey or not to obey God? The reasoning of right from wrong?

I am just thinking how did Satan ever think of disobeying God if he did not know what was sin. Did he know right from wrong?
Pride was found in him. The rebellion that followed proved that they had freewill. Pride goes before the fall.
 
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plmarquette

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they saw and lived with God ...face to face ...and sinned...

we have not seen God, rely on faith on the word and the teachings of the church, so we are given grace....blessed are they who have seen and believed, more blessed are they who have not seen and still believed....

some say satan rebelled for man was given a better deal from God than the Angels...his pride, cause him to be offended and fall from grace.....

to confuse, confound, and seduce 1/3 of all heaven must have been quite a task
...
 
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max1120

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If god is perfect than surely Lucifer, who was next only to god in heaven, and the angles who lived in heaven and had contact and actual first hand proof of god's perfect nature and power. Why would they rebel? Why would they try? If they knew that there was absolutely no way to win? Were they stupid? Were they insane? Maybe one or two really stupid ones might try but why any significant number like the 1/3 who joined Lucifer in the rebellion? Nothing in the bible indicates that the angles were stupid, foolish, or insane. So why would they attempt such a thing knowing in advance it had no chance of success? Does god have a secret weakness that was known to them but not to us? That would be the only logical explanation for them rebelling given the level of factual understanding of god they had in heaven. It is obvious why such a thing would not be mentioned in the bible, it would be counter productive for god to inform man of such things if it exist. What might this secret vunerability or weakness been? I have always been curious of this and would like to know your thoughts.
 
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stormdancer0

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Lucifer was the most beautiful of all of God's creation. His pride in his beauty was a major factor in his rebellion. Surely he knew it was a lost cause. But pride can blind someone. If a couple of angels agreed that Satan could overthrow God, it would feed his pride. Every one he convinced would feed it and feed it. I don't know, maybe he thinks he can gather all the souls he wins and overthrow heaven.

But it shows God's great love of us. Most of us would have given man not so much free will if the angels had already rebelled. But God would rather risk rejection than to force us to love Him.
 
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max1120

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Lucifer was the most beautiful of all of God's creation. His pride in his beauty was a major factor in his rebellion. Surely he knew it was a lost cause. But pride can blind someone. If a couple of angels agreed that Satan could overthrow God, it would feed his pride. Every one he convinced would feed it and feed it.

I can see what you are saying but I am not sure it was his physical beauty that was his main issue. I think it had more to do or had to have something to do with his desire to rule. He had to some how imagine that he could seize the throne and rule. My question is what would lead him to such a conclusion? What did he know that we do not know? Think of how much contact he would have had with god and how much more than we he would have know that god was all powerful and all knowing. Given this much higher degree of knowlege of god than what we have he must have known something we do not know. Think of it this way, you may want to rob Fort Knox, billions in gold bullion are locked away there. It would be the greatest robbery of all time. It also just happens to be one of the most secure locations in all the world. I would never dream of even attempting to do such a thing and no sane person would contempate doing so because they would quickly learn of the elaborate degree of sophisticated defense measures in place at Fort Know. These defenses would be such a deterant that the vast vast vast majority would never contemplate doing such a thing. Now suppose someone figured out a way in and a way out that would all them to have a chance to steal the gold and get away undetected. They may then be tempted by that "vulnerability" to steal the gold bullion. But it would require that person having access to very secret and sensitive information. Only someone very high up and under careful watch would have access to such information. This is an excellent example of what I am talking about but on a much higher plane than a robbery even at Fort Knox. I have often wondered if there was/ is some weakness or vulnerability which he knew god possessed which we are not aware of for obvious reasons. I can not speculate what that vulnerability might be, how would I start to guess? I think this is a fascinating question and I just wonder if anyone has thought of this too?


I don't know, maybe he thinks he can gather all the souls he wins and overthrow heaven.

But it shows God's great love of us. Most of us would have given man not so much free will if the angels had already rebelled. But God would rather risk rejection than to force us to love Him.

Of course this is another reason why I know that god would never harm those who choose not to follow him out of ignorance or disbelief. :)
 
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nermal

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If god is perfect than surely Lucifer, who was next only to god in heaven, and the angles who lived in heaven and had contact and actual first hand proof of god's perfect nature and power. Why would they rebel? Why would they try? If they knew that there was absolutely no way to win? Were they stupid? Were they insane? Maybe one or two really stupid ones might try but why any significant number like the 1/3 who joined Lucifer in the rebellion? Nothing in the bible indicates that the angles were stupid, foolish, or insane. So why would they attempt such a thing knowing in advance it had no chance of success? Does god have a secret weakness that was known to them but not to us? That would be the only logical explanation for them rebelling given the level of factual understanding of god they had in heaven. It is obvious why such a thing would not be mentioned in the bible, it would be counter productive for god to inform man of such things if it exist. What might this secret vunerability or weakness been? I have always been curious of this and would like to know your thoughts.

Just speculation, but perhaps in Satan's view, God's love seemed like a weakness? There doesn't need to have been a real weakness for your theory to work; all that would be needed would be a perceived weakness. And since Satan is not all-knowing, he could potentially make an error on such a matter and could have thought that he saw a weakness where none existed. :idea:
 
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praisehimalleluia

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This is a tough question, I truly understand. In fact this was my deepest thought when I thought about all God's creation on earth. I know Mankind was given freewill, thus we are the ones to be judged as per the Bible. But animals weren't given freewill, and they are not bound to punishment like mankind should we not receive grace from God.

But it was Satan, from the start with God, watching Him create everything from nothing, to existence. And He definitely was closest to God to know much than the rest of the Angels God created.

But the thought of why would Satan ever try to succeed or challenge God knowing God is Most powerful. This makes me ponder, on the freewill to choose right from wrong. Because if Satan did not have freewill, he won't know how to be jealous of God and try to supercede God. Its definitely evil intention in Satan's heart but who tempted Satan from the start to rebel and then Satan becomes the initiator of temptation to mankind to rebel against God. Perhaps God gave freewill to Angels too, to decide for themselves, and just like us, if they chose to disobey, they are doomed for judgement. But if Satan knew what is in store for rebels like him, then why would Satan rebel in the first place???

I mean knowing that He will be destroyed and never have what he had ever again, he would have known the consequences for his rebellion against God. I can't state that Satan is dumb as he is too smart. Why would a smart one try to supercede God?

Something is mysteriously there, which I guess we shall know in heaven! But this is not from the Bible, so far about Satans' freewill stuff.

Its just a thought that made me ponder on why would Satan rebel if he was not given freewill. Because I at first thought Angels are not given freewill, to choose right from wrong, that they obey God perfectly without conscious of such freewill we have. Hmmm

I hope many shall give their views on these. It would be nice to back this up with some biblical verses to refresh our minds on such mysteries.
 
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spidergains

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The very concept of free will demands an infinite number of possibilities.
Suppose that there are an infinite number of universes and an infinite number of Lucifers.

If free will exists...

  • some Lucifers did not rebel
  • some Eves were not deceived
  • some Adams did not eat the forbidden fruit
The list goes on and on.

Yet in our universe...

  • Lucifer did rebel
  • Eve was deceived
  • Adam ate the forbidden fruit
Therefore, we are separated from God. The bridge to God consists of 2 boards and 3 nails, yet to walk this bridge, you must surrender to Christ the one thing you never really had--untainted, unbridled free will.

Matt. 10:37 “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

This is also true at the church level.

Rev. 3:15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.
20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”

Why would Jesus have to knock on the door of his own church unless the door to heaven was closed?
 
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awayforawhile

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If god is perfect than surely Lucifer, who was next only to god in heaven, and the angles who lived in heaven and had contact and actual first hand proof of god's perfect nature and power. Why would they rebel? Why would they try? If they knew that there was absolutely no way to win? Were they stupid? Were they insane? Maybe one or two really stupid ones might try but why any significant number like the 1/3 who joined Lucifer in the rebellion? Nothing in the bible indicates that the angles were stupid, foolish, or insane. So why would they attempt such a thing knowing in advance it had no chance of success? Does god have a secret weakness that was known to them but not to us? That would be the only logical explanation for them rebelling given the level of factual understanding of god they had in heaven. It is obvious why such a thing would not be mentioned in the bible, it would be counter productive for god to inform man of such things if it exist. What might this secret vunerability or weakness been? I have always been curious of this and would like to know your thoughts.

I hope you understand that supposing a "secret weakness" of God is pure invention on your part. In fact it would take a conspiracy theory on an incredibly grand order to assume that our trustworthy God has a weakness that He's hiding from all of humanity that He loves. Your idea is about as far removed from the Bible as possible. It's purely something YOU thought of.

I would suggest that the God who created the laws of physics (along with the laws of life) is stronger than anything you can imagine - and guessing at some "hidden weakness" is nothing more than idle fiction, conspiracy BS of an extremely high degree.

The Bible says Lucifer rebelled because of pride - he thought he could rule like God. He was quickly proven wrong. For me, that explanation is more than sufficient.
 
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Bick

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Indeed, some good questions.

Here is my understanding, based upon the Scriptures.

The passage in Isaiah 14:4-18 is just what it says: it is a proverb, or taunt, against the king of Babylon. Much metaphorical language is used.

Vs. 11, "All your pomp has been brought down to the grave..."
He is seen to die and go to the grave (sheol-Heb.)
Vs. 12-15, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!" NOTE: The Hebrew word here translated "morning star" is translated "howl" in a number of other verses.

So this whole passage is a taunt against the king of Babylon, who said in his heart "..I will be like the most high"...etc. NIV.

Yet in vs. 15 we read, "But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit." This prophecied that the king of B. would die like a man; something that will not happen to Satan, a spirit being.

Then in Ezek. 28:1-10 we read that it is a prophecy against the prince (ruler) of Tyre. He obviously says in his heart he is a god, and sits in the seat of God. But he is told "..you are a man and not a god.." Vs. 10 reads, "You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners." NIV.

So, regardless of the metaphors used, he is a man and will die.

And, Ezek. 28:11-19 is a lament concerning the king of Tyre:
The Lord says, "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God:

NOTE: the phrase, "Eden, the garden of God" is referred to in other passages and can mean the "trees of Lebanon, like Eden." Do a word strdy.

And all the descriptions of 'covered with jewells' etc, can be figures of speech. Tyre was very wealthy because of its sea port and trading with the known world. Yet, it became filled with wickedness and sin (vs.15-16). Not only is this lament against the king, but also the whole kingdom of Tyre. "By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries..(vs18)".

The outcome? "..you have come to a horrible end and will be no more (vs.19)."
History says, Tyre was conquered by Alexander the Great, who decimated the city.

The above is about humans, not about Satan.

From beginning, his name is 'Satan' which means 'adversary.' It is difficult to understand, but I see in God's great plan, that He knew Adam and Eve would disobey, and receive the penalty of death, though it took Adam 930 years before he died. And seemingly, God created Satan as the perfect adversary. Does Satan have 'free will' to choose where he is? I don't think so. God is sovereign and He created him as he wants him.

As to his names and titles, Revelation 20:2 gives them all: "...And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years..." 'Devil' means 'accuser.'

Other interesting points: while Satan is a spirit being, he is never called an angel (messenger), though
2 Cor. 11:14 tells us "Satan himself masquerades as an angel (messenger) of light." He is deceiving unbelievers with the supposed 'truth'.

From the beginning Satan was a murderer and had no truth in him:
John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." KJV.

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

We know that Satan has not been 'cast down to the earth', for in Job we read of Satan being in heaven and talking with God. Also, the book of Revelation is yet future, and it is in the middle of the seven years tribulation, that Satan and one third of the angels in heaven (Satan's messengers) who are driven down to the earth (Rev. 12:9).

MY CONCLUSION: Satan was created according to God's purpose, to be the accuser, the adversary.
 
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Jeffz

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Bick you have given a good explanation, I believe that the all knowing God had his plan in place before the foundation of the world. Your examples of scripture are interesting about the king of tyre. Since we know that God knows all it would be true that He knew in advance that Satan would rebel and I believe that God made him to do just that in order for God's plan to be put in place. For Adam and Eve to be in the Garden without the ability to make the mistake they made their had to be an advisary lurking around.
 
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Bick

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Bick you have given a good explanation, I believe that the all knowing God had his plan in place before the foundation of the world. Your examples of scripture are interesting about the king of tyre. Since we know that God knows all it would be true that He knew in advance that Satan would rebel and I believe that God made him to do just that in order for God's plan to be put in place. For Adam and Eve to be in the Garden without the ability to make the mistake they made their had to be an advisary lurking around.

MY COMMENTS: Yes, Jeffz, I agree. There had to be the tempter in the garden to deceive Eve who ate, then gave it to Adam who ate. And thus, sin and death entered into the whole human race who could not redeem themselves.

BUT God, who with love and patience, planned all along to be the Redeemer, sent forth his Son to be the sacrifice for our sins. And, it is my belief that someday all humanity will know and love God and Christ greater than if created robots.
 
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Jeffz

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Bick I was just thinking of the scripture where it says that even angels are looking at what the Father has been doing in man. So could it be that in order for God to show His abounding love that all of this had to happen even for the angels to understand his love.
Just a thought.
 
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max1120

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I hope you understand that supposing a "secret weakness" of God is pure invention on your part. In fact it would take a conspiracy theory on an incredibly grand order to assume that our trustworthy God has a weakness that He's hiding from all of humanity that He loves. Your idea is about as far removed from the Bible as possible. It's purely something YOU thought of.

I would suggest that the God who created the laws of physics (along with the laws of life) is stronger than anything you can imagine - and guessing at some "hidden weakness" is nothing more than idle fiction, conspiracy BS of an extremely high degree.

The Bible says Lucifer rebelled because of pride - he thought he could rule like God. He was quickly proven wrong. For me, that explanation is more than sufficient.

I shall try to address the points you raised, however if you simply "wish" to beleive whatever regardless of facts than I supose this is a futile excersise...lol

First we have a god who is at least by his discription of himself "all knowing and all powerful". This god then creates angles and among these angles Lucifer is the most like god in his powers and abilities. He essentially is gods second in command. Lucifer is there and sees all of creation and knows intimately the power god has as he has seen it first hand. He knows god is all knowing. Lucifer is a highly intelligent being, god would not hand such a position of trust and authority to a idiot. He had to see something that led him to conclude that god could be defeated. There had to be some secert weakness or vunerability of god's which he alone was priviy. I have no idea what that may have been, but logically it must have existed for satan to be able to concieve (logically) that he could defeat god. Also the other angles had to be then be convinced that they had a real chance to defeat god, he had to base his pitch to them on something serious since they too would have intimate knowledge of gods powers. I know this is specualtive since it is of course not in the bible (why would god point out his own weaknesses?), but it is facinating to think about it.

As to his hidding this from the "humanity he loves" of course he would hide it..if my speculation is correct what reason would he have to reveal it to us since it would only further weaken him in doing so.

I again I admit this is specualtion...but it appears to me to be the only logical and rational way to explain what happen in heaven and how Lucifier concieved that he could defeat god inspite of his knowing intimately how powerful and all knowing god is, otherwise he would have to be a simpleton and why would god allow a simpliton that much power in heaven. This is why I believe I may be on to something here.:thumbsup:
 
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awayforawhile

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I shall try to address the points you raised, however if you simply "wish" to beleive whatever regardless of facts than I supose this is a futile excersise...lol

blah blah blah

Uh... I didn't see any facts :) just "logical and rational explanations" that you made up in your own head. But as long as you know you're only speculating. I can live with that
 
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