Was Lucifer (Satan) created with freewill?

[Dorothea]

First let me congratulate you on one of the best written explanations of this subject I have seen, especially here on CF.

Well, thanks. That was from the Orthodox Church catachism of Europe, if you go to the link I provided.

A new question has come about in my mind also. Was Lucifer the first/only rebellion in heaven or among the angles or have there been successive wars of this nature over course of eternity? I know that this one is the only one we know of, but if there was one why not a second or earlier such conflict?

As far as the history I have read and listened and watched on this subject is that this was the first rebellion in the heavens.

Also I have heard that there is debate over the question of Lucifer and Satan being the same. I have been told by some that they believe them to be seperate beings Lucifer being the senior angle in heaven who lead the rebellion against god in order to seize the throne in heaven and Satan "the accusser" they seem to me to be seperate persons. Have you heard of this before?

No, I don't think I have. But here's some info I found on the names:

Lucifer, which means bearer of light, was later renamed Satan, which means antagonist. He is also called the devil (which means slanderer), the serpent, and the dragon. The words of the Savior, "I saw Satan, fallen from heaven as a bolt of lightning," refer to this prehistoric event, the rebellion by Lucifer and other angels against God. This is described in the book of Revelation with the following details: "There occurred a war in the heavens. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought against them. However they did not prevail, and there was no room for them in heaven. The great dragon was cast down, that ancient snake, known as devil and satan … and his angels were also cast down with him" (Revelation 12:7-9). From the initial words of chapter 12 of the book of Revelation, where it is said that the dragon drew after him one third of the stars in heaven (Revelation 12:4), some conclude that at that time Lucifer seduced one third of the angels. These fallen angels are called demons.

A n g e l s

The reason I used the word "convince" is that surely more were tempted than actually joined Lucifers side. Also this brings up the question of what type of contest actually occured in heaven? Was it an acctual war as we thnk of it? Were there casualties? Was there physical distruction of property? How close did Lucifer actually come to achieving his victory? What prevented his victory, was it an actual significant engagement like D-Day, Waterloo or Gettysburg? What was the nature of the "War"? I am not sure anyone really knows but the question is intriqing.

This was intriguing to the priests on the video, also unfathomable to comprehend in our human reasoning, according to them. It's something we can't really imagine what it was like....what it truly was, we would never know.

As for the meaning of Lucifer's name (light bearer). It could have additional meaning aside from saying he was created "good". Light has always been used in literature to indicate knowledge. What if Lucifer was a "knowledge bearer"? What if the light he shinned was not physical light but the light of knowledge? What knowledge might he have had? Knowledge of god or more approperiately god's vunerability? The secerts known only to god himself? The translation of that term has a great deal of implication. Do you see what I am saying? Pehaps there is more to his name than we realize?

Hmmm, well I don't believe there is anything written to give evidence to Lucifer meaning "knowledge-bearer" or him knowing something more about God than the other angels that would've given him inside information on God more than any other angel. Here's some more info I found:


Angels surpass man in all spiritual strength. However, even they, as created beings, bear in themselves the seal of limitation. Being fleshless, they are less dependent than men on space and time. However, only God is omnipotent and omniscient. The Holy Scriptures represent angels either descending from heaven to earth or ascending back to heaven. Angels are created immortal, as is witnessed by the Scriptures, teaching that they cannot die (Luke 20:36). Nevertheless, their immortality is not a property of their nature, nor is it unconditional, but, just as the immortality of our soul, it depends wholly upon God's will and mercy.

Angels, as fleshless spirits, are capable of inward self-development to the highest degree. Their intellect is higher than that of man. By their might and power, as the Apostle Peter explains, they surpass all earthly authorities and governments (2 Peter 2:11). Nevertheless, even their exalted attributes have their limits. Scriptures indicate that they do not know the depth of the Essence of God, which is known only to the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11 They do not know the future, which is also known only to God (Mark 13:32). Likewise, they do not wholly comprehend the mysteries of redemption into which they wish to penetrate (1 Peter 1:12). They even do not know all of man's thoughts (3 Kings 8:39 [Note: 3 Kings in the Slavonic Bible = 1 Kings KJV]). Finally, they cannot on their own perform miracles without the will of God.

I enjoy this sort of inquiry and would love to know what you think. Also anyone reading this please fell free to comment and give your oppinions and any source information you may be willing to provide.

Thanks for your kindness, max.

 

[praisehimalleluia]

Now, this is really a great post to read. Thanks Dorothy, Max. Your inputs have opened my mind a lot. These are things we can't get easily without confronting a person who does research in theology and areas of such.

I am glad there is real answers to dig in deeper. At times the answers may not be too clear as my mind is not able to grasp the huge mysteries of God's Creation and His purpose wholly. But truly God has a splendid plan for salvation, and not everything He shall open our minds to understand, I agree. And this is just one of them, we continue to wonder and ponder, if it was asked by an unbeliever who don't even believe in God.

This question was asked by a person who has no faith, not a believer in God, who believes everything is about mankind, and not about God. So He ridiculed me and I was seeking something profound to get him thinking. that's all.

The question he asked was this and when I explained yes about freewill, He then asked me if God knew Satan will rebel, God definitely knew Satan will be destroyed in the end, with a whole lot of evil followers of Satan. Then he just questioned on God's mercy here, in where is a Creator being loving to His creation by imposing such destruction to the very creation He made with His Hands? so here is where I got stuck. I can't answer him cause I don't have the answer to that. I don't know.

Thank you all so much for helping. Please pour in your ideas.

 

[Jeffz]

The amazing thing about God's love is that he knew and knows that we are unable to do what he wants. So He came down and did it for us, the gospel, His requirement is met by Himself for man by becoming a part of His creation. By all rights none of us are worthy, our righteousness is as filthy rags. Praise God our salvation is not about our doing but by His doing.

 

[Dorothea]

Now, this is really a great post to read. Thanks Dorothy, Max. Your inputs have opened my mind a lot. These are things we can't get easily without confronting a person who does research in theology and areas of such.

I am glad there is real answers to dig in deeper. At times the answers may not be too clear as my mind is not able to grasp the huge mysteries of God's Creation and His purpose wholly. But truly God has a splendid plan for salvation, and not everything He shall open our minds to understand, I agree. And this is just one of them, we continue to wonder and ponder, if it was asked by an unbeliever who don't even believe in God.

This question was asked by a person who has no faith, not a believer in God, who believes everything is about mankind, and not about God. So He ridiculed me and I was seeking something profound to get him thinking. that's all.

The question he asked was this and when I explained yes about freewill, He then asked me if God knew Satan will rebel, God definitely knew Satan will be destroyed in the end, with a whole lot of evil followers of Satan. Then he just questioned on God's mercy here, in where is a Creator being loving to His creation by imposing such destruction to the very creation He made with His Hands? so here is where I got stuck. I can't answer him cause I don't have the answer to that. I don't know.

Thank you all so much for helping. Please pour in your ideas.

Aww, I know diddly squat, but thank you and you're welcome.

 

[max1120]

Dorothea,

Thanks for your wonderful response. I enjoyed reading it. This is a lot like a jiggsaw puzzle since it is not well discused in the books of the bible.

One of the reasons I mentioned Lucifer's name is that he is discribed in the bible as the "morning star" and "light bearer". Light is usually associated with "knowledge", "truth, and "wisdom" in the bible. We refer to Christ and the "light" of the world and a "star" was used to guide wise men and kings to the birth place of Jesus. This association I think gives some insite into Lucifer's person as he is discribed as essentially god's second in command as being chief among the angeles.

I wonder if there are any extra-cananical works that might deleve into this subject. Do you know of any?

By the way I am on my mother's side I am part Russian (the family name there was Bobrinskoy). I am interested in learning more about the Russian Orthodox church. This was a recent discovery in our family and I do not speek Russian but would love to learn more about it and perhaps visit and observe the services.

Again it is always good to find an intelligent and well spoken (written) voice on CF.

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothea,

Thanks for your wonderful response. I enjoyed reading it. This is a lot like a jiggsaw puzzle since it is not well discused in the books of the bible.

One of the reasons I mentioned Lucifer's name is that he is discribed in the bible as the "morning star" and "light bearer". Light is usually associated with "knowledge", "truth, and "wisdom" in the bible. We refer to Christ and the "light" of the world and a "star" was used to guide wise men and kings to the birth place of Jesus. This association I think gives some insite into Lucifer's person as he is discribed as essentially god's second in command as being chief among the angeles.

I wonder if there are any extra-cananical works that might deleve into this subject. Do you know of any?

By the way I am on my mother's side I am part Russian (the family name there was Bobrinskoy). I am interested in learning more about the Russian Orthodox church. This was a recent discovery in our family and I do not speek Russian but would love to learn more about it and perhaps visit and observe the services.

Again it is always good to find an intelligent and well spoken (written) voice on CF.

You're too kind, max. Thank you!

I do not know of any extra-cananical works on this subject, I'm afraid. I'm sorry I can't help you more. I'm but a young buddingy student in all that encompasses our Lord and His angels and such.

That is very interesting to learn that you are part Russian. That must be very neat for you and your family. It's always interesting to research one's family trees/ancestory. My mother is from Greece. So obviously I am half Greek and half English/German (my dad's side). I wish I'd learned Greek fluently. It is wonderful to learn about the Orthodox Church. There is much rich history in it. Visit a Russian Orthodox Church (or OCA since that's all in English ) sometime.

 

[Jpark]

Were angels created with freewill? The choice to obey or not to obey like us mankind?

In what state was Satan created? Was he given freewill to choose to obey or not to obey God? The reasoning of right from wrong?

I am just thinking how did Satan ever think of disobeying God if he did not know what was sin. Did he know right from wrong?

Yes, angels were created with free will. Satan was created with free will. When Satan and his angels sinned, they were cursed and they lost their free will. Now they cannot do anything without God's permission (Job 1:6-2:7). They do God's will. They are cursed.