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How do you know that? He did not say they were not saved. He did not say they were not his own. He said they were workers of inquity or lawlessness. Hummmm seems he looked at their deeds. Didn't he know that deeds do not matter in salvation?NONE that were ever one of His own and were saved though!
Jesus said that the good shepherd goes after the one lost one. So when does Jesus stop going after the one who strayed and that sheep is no longer a sheep once it strays?It is quite possible to fall away from the real and true faith a man had and JEsus explains how. It is real. It happens. Christians can fall away from the faith and become lost.
He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.Of course it is, I've just dealt with him on James 2 and 1 John before at length so bo point pursuing it again, he wouldn't do an exposition then and doesn't want to now. Spamming verses out of context and generating mountains of rationalizations won't help his case. It's a simple exposition, the difficulty is due to the fact that the logic of his proposition is fatally flawed. The gospel is clear, we will struggle with sin right up until the return of Christ. Paul describes this at length in Romans six and seven, starting off with what shall we say then, which means, what shall we teach. In other words, it's a doctrinal discussion with a xonclusive determination with reqrds to the nature of the Christian's struggle with sin even post conversion. This atuff gets easier when you learn to take things the underlying principles.
Grace and peace,
Mark
He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.
He also changes scripture tweeking it to suit his position. Hard to have a discussion.
He looked at, looks at, their hearts, and what he saw was dark, but he did save some of them, or bring them back to repentance again, or revived them of their dead-ness, cause some of the Jewish Pharisees, and others of Jewish Law, converted and became Christians and committed themselves to following him and after him and in his ways, putting their faith and hope(s) and trust in him...How do you know that? He did not say they were not saved. He did not say they were not his own. He said they were workers of inquity or lawlessness. Hummmm seems he looked at their deeds. Didn't he know that deeds do not matter in salvation?
Jesus would know that but it is over a long period of time and much rebellion. He is very patient but in the end, if the once believer refuses to come, then God lets him go. What else is He to do? The once believer does not want God or his home anymore. Should he force him?Jesus said that the good shepherd goes after the one lost one. So when does Jesus stop going after the one who strayed and that sheep is no longer a sheep once it strays?
What do you think "fall away from the faith" means? But please provide me a scripture that says you are saved and can never lose that salvation. No metaphors. The real words "you are saved now and cannot ever lose your eternal life no matter what you do or how you behave."Please list the verses that prove "salvation" is lost and that person is no longer a sheep or Christ's. Specifically
Yea it's called a strawman argument, arguing with things your opponent didn't say. It's a comnon falkacy and you can take verses out on context and put them together to mean anything you like, that's also very common and profoundly flawed.He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.
He also changes scripture tweeking it to suit his position. Hard to have a discussion.
I am but you change the words of the Bible as one posted pointed out. I saw that as well. And you bombard us with verses instead of discussing a few with the surrounding texts.I thought before you were against OSAS and Calvinism. Now you appear to be agreeing with both a Calvinist and an OSAS Proponent in regards to Soteriology?
Yea it's called a strawman argument, arguing with things your opponent didn't say. It's a comnon falkacy and you can take verses out on context and put them together to mean anything you like, that's also very common and profoundly flawed.
I am but you change the words of the Bible as one posted pointed out.
I saw that as well. And you bombard us with verses instead of discussing a few with the surrounding texts.
You completely ignore what GOd had to say to David himself. He did not tell him he was unsaved. You miss that.
You are way off interpreting this verse.You think Hebrews 6:4-6 is in reference to an unbeliever. But Hebrews 6:1 talks about not laying again the foundation of repentance (Which is not possible for an unbeliever).
Hebrews 6:1 says,
"...not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,"
Unbelievers cannot ATTEMPT to lay AGAIN:
#1. The FOUNDATION by their REPENTANCE from dead works
#2. The FOUNDATION of their FAITH TOWARDS GOD.
Only a believer can attempt to do try to do this (Which is impossible) according to Hebrews 6:4-6.
Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.Look. You can play word games all you want with Hebrews 6:1. Just read Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 10:38-39 and it will become clear to you. Also, the example of Abraham inheriting the promise is used in Hebrews 6 (Which shows faith in action and not a mere belief alone). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.
You need to look at what God said to David. This you leave out. And you also need to realize that time makes a difference. You seem to ignore time as though all Psalms were written when you want them to be written. A forgiven man who sins again asks for forgiveness. Why is this difficult? David asked God not to take his Holy SPirit from him. Guess he had it and was concerned he would lose it.I can equally make the same claim of you in the fact that you changed "woman" to "women" in Matthew 5:28-30 and you ignore giving a proper explanation on Numbers 35:16-18, Leviticus 20:11, 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 6:32, and Matthew 5:28-30. You did not really give a convincing word by word commentary to those verses that would convince that your belief is true. I believe you are changing the Word of God by ignoring these verses in what they plainly say.
You also did not give me your own set of verses that prove that one grievous sin cannot separate you from GOD.
Oh, and Mark did not even bother to respond to even one verse in my list. That to me seems like he is avoiding something.
The Bible is not your enemy. I started to explain the verses, but he did not want to hear them.
Again, a forgiven person does not seek forgiveness with GOD.
A saved person does not ask for his salvation back.
Please read again Psalms 51.
I guess it was not the last time.To me: Their belief is distasteful because it mocks what Jesus did for us on the cross. So I would never give a like to their posts in regards to Soteriology. I would not give others the false impression that I am siding with them in regards to salvation. I also do not agree with your belief because it seeks to justify sin (a little bit). It is not as bad as what they believe, but it is still bad. It is still wrong from my reading of Scripture and my understanding of basic morality.
1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.
You cannot get around that one.
Not just too hard but impossible, is what I am trying to get at... And I also do not think it is "The Way" or "the ways" of Jesus Christ...Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.
You are way off interpreting this verse.
It says we should not lay a foundation or keep repenting from DEAD WORKS.
The DEAD WORKS and are laying a foundation in not Christ doing the good work inside of us through the Holy Spirit, but laying an incorrect foundation based off of not faith that it alive, CHrist in us, but by us trying to impress God on our own.
It is the dead works.
What scripture says that though? I'm not going to put words in God's mouth, so I need the scripture that says that.Jesus would know that but it is over a long period of time and much rebellion. He is very patient but in the end, if the once believer refuses to come, then God lets him go. What else is He to do? The once believer does not want God or his home anymore.
It is impossible to renew them to repentance since/BECAUSE they are still rebelling by crucifying/shaming Christ. One cannot repent and keep purposely sinning. Yes of No?Of course it's in the present tense because if you could do it you would be doing it at that momet. The tense there is obviously irrelevant.
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