Was Judas Iscariot saved?

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

Rocinante said:
Momof 7 said:

Rozzi sez:

Am I not in the "Liberal Theology" section?

Smell the coffee, Mom. The "Creeds" are invalid because they were dreamed up by evil men who wanted to exclude, torture and murder "heretics."

The only real creed is, "Jesus is Lord."

That's Liberal Theology.

Do you accept the Nicene creed or the apostles creed?

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

dnich163 said:
God had no relationship with the unsaved . He offers no second chance

I say this is not correct. If God is creator of all that is.....then he has a relationship with us.
You have to consider carefully what you mean by a "second chance"

David

What you church teaches

II. EXISTENCE OF HELL

There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. On the nature of mortal sin, see SIN; on the immediate beginning of punishment after death, see PARTICULAR JUDGMENT. As to the fate of those who die free from personal mortal sin, but in original sin, see LIMBO (limbus parvulorum).

The existence of hell is, of course, denied by all those who deny the existence of God or the immortality of the soul. Thus among the Jew the Sadducees, among the Gnostics, the Seleucians, and in our own time Materialists, Pantheists, etc., deny the existence of hell. But apart from these, if we abstract from the eternity of the pains of hell, the doctrine has never met any opposition worthy of mention.

The existence of hell is proved first of all from the Bible. Wherever Christ and the Apostles speak of hell they presuppose the knowledge of its existence (Matt., v, 29; viii, 12; x, 28; xiii, 42; xxv, 41, 46; II Thess., i, 8; Apoc., xxi, 8, etc.). A very complete development of the Scriptural argument, especially in regard to the Old Testament, may be found in Atzberger's "Die christliche Eschatologie in den Stadien ihrer Offenbarung im Alten und Neuen Testament", Freiburg, 1890. Also the Fathers, from the very earliest times, are unanimous in teaching that the wicked will be punished after death. And in proof of their doctrine they appeal both to Scripture and to reason (cf. Ignatius, "Ad Eph.", v, 16; "Martyrium s. Polycarpi", ii, n, 3; xi, n.2; Justin, "Apol.", II, n. 8 in P.G., VI, 458; Athenagoras, "De resurr. mort.", c. xix, in P.G., VI, 1011; Irenaeus, "Adv. haer.", V, xxvii, n. 2 in P.G. VII, 1196; Tertullian, "Adv. Marc.", I, c. xxvi, in P.L., IV, 277). For citations from this patristic teaching see Atzberger, "Gesh. der christl. Eschatologie innerhalb der vornicanischen Zeit" (Freiburg, 1896); Petavius, "De Angelis", III, iv sqq.

The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed: "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire" (Denzinger, "Enchiridion", 10th ed., 1908, n.40). The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693): "the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments" (poenis disparibus).

If we abstract from the eternity of its punishment, the existence of hell can be demonstrated even by the light of mere reason. In His sanctity and justice as well as in His wisdom, God must avenge the violation of the moral order in such wise as to preserve, at least in general, some proportion between the gravity of sin and the severity of punishment. But it is evident from experience that God does not always do this on earth; therefore He will inflict punishment after death. Moreover, if all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear no kind of punishment after death, moral and social order would be seriously menaced. This, however, Divine wisdom cannot permit. Again, if there were no retribution beyond that which takes place before our eyes here on earth, we should have to consider God extremely indifferent to good and evil, and we could in no way account for His justice and holiness.-Nor can it be said: the wicked will be punished, but not by any positive infliction: for either death will be the end of their existence, or, forfeiting the rich reward of the good, they will enjoy some lesser degree of happiness. These are arbitrary and vain subterfuges, unsupported by any sound reason; positive punishment is the natural recompense of evil. Besides, due proportion between demerit and punishment would be rendered impossible by an indiscriminate annihilation of all the wicked. And finally, if men knew that their sins would not be followed by sufferings, the mere threat of annihilation at the moment of death, and still less the prospect of a somewhat lower degree of beatitude, would not suffice to deter them from sin.

Furthermore, reason easily understands that in the next life the just will be made happy as a reward of their virtue (see HEAVEN). But the punishment of evil is the natural counterpart of the reward of virtue. Hence, there will also be punishment for sin in the next life. Accordingly, we find among all nations the belief that evil-doers will be punished after death. This universal conviction of mankind is an additional proof for the existence of hell. For it is impossible that, in regard to the fundamental questions of their being and their destiny, all men should fall into the same error; else the power of human reason would be essentially deficient, and the order of this world would be unduly wrapt in mystery; this however, is repugnant both to nature and to the wisdom of the Creator. On the belief of all nations in the existence of hell cf. Lüken, "Die Traditionen des Menschengeschlechts" (2nd ed., Münster, 1869); Knabenbauer, "Das Zeugnis des Menschengeschlechts fur die Unsterblichkeit der Seele" (1878). The few men who, despite the morally universal conviction of the human race, deny the existence of hell, are mostly atheists and Epicureans. But if the view of such men in the fundamental question of our being could be the true one, apostasy would be the way to light, truth, and wisdom.

There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. On the nature of mortal sin, see SIN; on the immediate beginning of punishment after death, see PARTICULAR JUDGMENT. As to the fate of those who die free from personal mortal sin, but in original sin, see LIMBO (limbus parvulorum).

The existence of hell is, of course, denied by all those who deny the existence of God or the immortality of the soul. Thus among the Jew the Sadducees, among the Gnostics, the Seleucians, and in our own time Materialists, Pantheists, etc., deny the existence of hell. But apart from these, if we abstract from the eternity of the pains of hell, the doctrine has never met any opposition worthy of mention

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

Error

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

Rocinante said:
Momof 7 said:

Rozzi sez:

Am I not in the "Liberal Theology" section?

Smell the coffee, Mom. The "Creeds" are invalid because they were dreamed up by evil men who wanted to exclude, torture and murder "heretics."

The only real creed is, "Jesus is Lord."

That's Liberal Theology.

My error , One may post in an open area but not register as a Christian or post in the Christian area if they deny the Apostles creed or the Nicene Creed.

You are right that is often liberal theology

reverend B · Mar 12, 2004

we are also forbidden to say someone is or is not a christian. these problems should be taken up with the moderator in private. moderator's decisions are final.

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

dnich163 said:
rnmomof7 said:

There was much false teaching and apostasy in the early church . Thus the need for the councils .

Are you meaning counclis like Nicaea?

You do not hold a Catholic doctrinal position or a Christian one.

This is a bit of a surprise..how do you come to that assertion?

Click to expand...

http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

reverend B said:
we are also forbidden to say someone is or is not a christian. these problems should be taken up with the moderator in private. moderator's decisions are final.

You are right Rev , I hope that I did not say that anyone was not a Christian , that is Gods call.

Miss Shelby · Mar 12, 2004

Rocinante said:
Yeah, I imagine he was in good standing with the Lord when he was a child and hadn't started his life of crime......so what?

He was a disciple, chosen by the Lord. The Bible says that Christ knew him, and knew what was in a man, so I tend to believe that Judas wasn't predermined to end up in hell, but through sinning, placed his soul in a very precarious position. I don't know if he ended up in hell or not, but I do know that all sins can be forgiven if they're repented of, including theft and being greedy.

So for this and the several other reasons I mentioned.......it doesn't look good for old Judas.

Maybe not, but some days it doesn't look too hot for ole 'me' either. That's why I try not judge where others have ended up, not even Judas the Traitor.

Michelle

joevberry3 · Mar 12, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
He was a disciple, chosen by the Lord. The Bible says that Christ knew him, and knew what was in a man, so I tend to believe that Judas wasn't predermined to end up in hell, but through sinning, placed his soul in a very precarious position. I don't know if he ended up in hell or not, but I do know that all sins can be forgiven if they're repented of, including theft and being greedy.

Maybe not, but some days it doesn't look too hot for ole 'me' either. That's why I try not judge where others have ended up, not even Judas the Traitor.

Michelle

Amen! Good Post Michelle!
God Bless,
Joe

dnich163 · Mar 12, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
Athanasian Creed

I specifically asked what Council you were referring to in my post so you wouldn't be misled.

It is the Nicene creed we say in mass......Not the Athanasian which was dropped after Vatican 2 and not actually used very much.

The Athanasian Creed, sometimes known as the "Quicunque" was written by a student of St Augustine around 500 AD; probably St Caesarius of Arles, and written in Latin. Latin, as we know, doesn't always translate readily into English.

This creed was never used in things like Baptism.

I do believe it is retained in a number of Lutheran and Anglican service books

David

rnmomof7 · Mar 12, 2004

dnich163 said:
I specifically asked what Council you were referring to in my post so you wouldn't be misled.

It is the Nicene creed we say in mass......Not the Athanasian which was dropped after Vatican 2 and not actually used very much.

The Athanasian Creed, sometimes known as the "Quicunque" was written by a student of St Augustine around 500 AD; probably St Caesarius of Arles, and written in Latin. Latin, as we know, doesn't always translate readily into English.

This creed was never used in things like Baptism.

I do believe it is retained in a number of Lutheran and Anglican service books

David

Usually the Apostles creed is said at mass I believe . That was never said at mass however the Atheanasian is still the doctrinal stand of the church ( and all Christian churches )

The councils and creeds mean something .It has never been withdrawn as containing necessary beliefs

The "damnatory", or "minatory clauses", are the pronouncements contained in the symbol, of the penalties which follow the rejection of what is there proposed for our belief. It opens with one of them: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith". The same is expressed in the verses beginning: "Furthermore, it is necessary" etc., and "For the right Faith is" etc., and finally in the concluding verse: "This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved". Just as the Creed states in a very plain and precise way what the Catholic Faith is concerning the important doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, so it asserts with equal plainness and precision what will happen to those who do not faithfully and steadfastly believe in these revealed truths. They are but the credal equivalent of Our Lord's words: "He that believeth not shall be condemned", and apply, as is evident, only to the culpable and wilful rejection of Christ's words and teachings.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

As you can see the Catholic church clearly teaches as doctrine that there is a "hell" and that there is eternal punishment there .

You asked about universalism earlier.

It is a system of beliefs that says all men will be saved,that they will have a second chance after death
Catholics have never accepted that as doctrinal as far as I know.
It has been considered a heresy by Christian churches .

reverend B · Mar 12, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Athanasian Creed

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

then how do we reconcile that we shall not be saved through works but by faith, so noone can boast? that noone is free from sin, no not one. we are saved through grace alone.

CCWoody · Mar 12, 2004

dnich163 · Mar 13, 2004

Usually the Apostles creed is said at mass I believe . That was never said at mass however the Atheanasian is still the doctrinal stand of the church ( and all Christian churches )

No, it is definately the Nicene creed which is used as the basis of our declaration of faith at Mass...at least here in Scotland,Europe and at St Peters when I was there last December.

As you can see the Catholic church clearly teaches as doctrine that there is a "hell" and that there is eternal punishment there .
You asked about universalism earlier.
It is a system of beliefs that says all men will be saved,that they will have a second chance after death
Catholics have never accepted that as doctrinal as far as I know.
It has been considered a heresy by Christian churches

See reply following in separate post
David

dnich163 · Mar 13, 2004

To rnmomof7,

I will be quoting here from the Holy See. These bits will be in Italics. This is to give you an idea of the loads of councils, documents, official teachings that are addressing the changes in a changing world.

"Scripture in OT.......There is no clear and consistent teaching in the early Hebrew writings concerning the fate of the dead.Similiar to the view of surrounding cultures, the pre-prophetic writings reflect the notion of an underworld (sheol) which should not be indentified with the later Christian concept of Hell.........

writers of the inter- Testamental period develop a distinction between the fate of the good and that of the wicked...(Ref: Wis 4:19 )...the dead neither thank or praise God, and there is no communion (Ref: Isa 38:18)

The notion of an eternal punishment is developed in 2nd Kings, 23:10 in the form of a "Gehenna" which is a place where human sacrifices with unspeakable horrors taking place............

This is developed in the NT

dnich163 · Mar 13, 2004

To rnmomof7,..Part 2

" In the NT, the word Gehenna is used 11 times in the synoptic gospels...............as opposed to 1 in the OT"

You will of course know plenty of references so no need to list them.

" Teaching of the Magisterium......The concept of eternal punishment is expressed in a number of creeds such as the Athanasian Creed from around the 5th century"

The councils that have spoken on the question of eternal punishment are in 1215, 1274, 1439 and 1547.
There is some question as to when the "final judgement" can be defined

" In 1979, the sacred congregation for the doctrine of the faith published a document.......it re-affirms eternal punishment for sinners......but not what this punishment will be.....this punishment will have a reprcussion on the whole being of the sinner......."

Later on..after considering issues such as human freedom etc....

" the traditional language of hell and punishment holds before us the the negative possibility of human freedom...thus contemporary is inclined to interpret the teaching of the church as referring to the possibility of hell........there is no official church statement about any individual in hell.........hell stands in contrast with the affirmation of the reality of heaven as the fulfillment of human history that has already been accomplished in the person of Jesus"

This I can assure you is church teaching..not some website..but the key is "how do we interpret this message?"

David

rnmomof7 · Mar 13, 2004

dnich163 said:
To rnmomof7,..Part 2

" In the NT, the word Gehenna is used 11 times in the synoptic gospels...............as opposed to 1 in the OT"

You will of course know plenty of references so no need to list them.

" Teaching of the Magisterium......The concept of eternal punishment is expressed in a number of creeds such as the Athanasian Creed from around the 5th century"

The councils that have spoken on the question of eternal punishment are in 1215, 1274, 1439 and 1547.
There is some question as to when the "final judgement" can be defined

" In 1979, the sacred congregation for the doctrine of the faith published a document.......it re-affirms eternal punishment for sinners......but not what this punishment will be.....this punishment will have a reprcussion on the whole being of the sinner......."

Later on..after considering issues such as human freedom etc....

" the traditional language of hell and punishment holds before us the the negative possibility of human freedom...thus contemporary is inclined to interpret the teaching of the church as referring to the possibility of hell........there is no official church statement about any individual in hell.........hell stands in contrast with the affirmation of the reality of heaven as the fulfillment of human history that has already been accomplished in the person of Jesus"

This I can assure you is church teaching..not some website..but the key is "how do we interpret this message?"

David

Is that dogma or an opinion?

Did any council at any time proclaim a second chance after death?
That is actually the base of the question

Cecilia · Mar 13, 2004

I have given this a lot of thought...especially due to my youth group's discussion of related topics recently. I believe Judas was saved. He had the potential to be the Apostle of Forgiveness instead of Paul. To think, Paul became known as the Apostle of Forgiveness because he persecuted the Church. Judas, however, could've realized how he had been forgiven and shown the world God's loving forgiveness. "I handed over His son, yet He still loves and forgives me." Now that's a powerful thought...

CCWoody · Mar 13, 2004

Cecilia said:
I have given this a lot of thought...especially due to my youth group's discussion of related topics recently. I believe Judas was saved. He had the potential to be the Apostle of Forgiveness instead of Paul. To think, Paul became known as the Apostle of Forgiveness because he persecuted the Church. Judas, however, could've realized how he had been forgiven and shown the world God's loving forgiveness. "I handed over His son, yet He still loves and forgives me." Now that's a powerful thought...

If you and your youth group think that Judas was saved by the Lord, then perhaps, given the fact that the Prophet David gave us the prophetic Psalm wherein Judas was specifically CURSED --

Let his daies be fewe, and let another take his [office].
(Psalms 109:8 GB)
Let there be none to extend mercie vnto him: neither let there be any to shewe mercie vpon his fatherlesse children.
(Psalms 109:12 GB)

-- and given the fact that the Lord himself spoke against his betrayer, saying that it would be better that he had NEVER been born --

And hee answered and sayde, Hee that dippeth his hande with me in the dish, hee shall betraie me. Surely the Sonne of man goeth his way, as it is written of him: but woe be to that man, by whom the Sonne of man is betrayed: it had bene good for that man, if hee had neuer bene borne. Then Iudas which betraied him, answered and sayde, Is it I, Master? He sayde vnto him, Thou hast sayd it.
(Matthew 26:23-25 GB)

-- then, how is it that you believe that Judas was saved?

dnich163 · Mar 13, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
Is that dogma or an opinion?

Did any council at any time proclaim a second chance after death?
That is actually the base of the question

As I said this is Catholic dogma.

The "problem" with judgementalism is that we cannot say who is in hell, this is also stated by the Catholic church because it is only God who knows.

I first stated in reply to this question about Judas being saved......my first post on this issue.......that it would in essence be against the idea of a forgiving God and also against Jesus dying for "all humanity"...he would have died in vain.

In one of my later posts I state that "my belief" is that when we come before God (perhaps in purgatory where we are supposed to be cleansed of our sins) we will not be able to or want to resist him.

No council that I am aware of said anything about a second chance after death...but they do talk about purgatory and the "purgation of sins"...council of Lyons in 1274 and Florence in 1439

What you see as "a second chance" I see as part of the cleansing process, as does the RC Church.

In Theological terms, with our description of an all powerful, all loving God, the idea that part of his creation being beyond him is negative

David

Was Judas Iscariot saved?

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