Was Jesus omniscient?

[OzSpen]

No. The very idea that a human creature could exist as omniscient is absurd in the extreme (and yet countless Christians believe it to be true)?!

However, the Messiah/Christ existing as both Divine Creator and human creature is both Omniscient and non-Omniscient (which is why the Scriptures are non-contradictory). As Divine Creator the Messiah/Christ Exists as Omniscient (Matt.11:20-24, 27) whilst as human creature the Messiah/Christ does not exist as omniscient (Mk.13:32) otherwise all human creatures would exist as omniscient (Heb.2:17)?!. Hardly rocket science?!

YHWH is the Infinite Divine Creator. Jesus of Nazareth is a finite human creature. The Messiah/Christ (i.e. the Son) exists as both YHWH and Jesus of Nazareth. The Messiah/Christ is the human incarnation of God NOT the Divine incarnation of God (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3) because Divinity is incapable of incarnating (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17).

Simonline.

The Scriptures provide evidence contrary to some of your statements:

1. Jesus confirms his eternity with the statements, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and " I am the Alpha & Omega" (Rev. 22:13).
2. Jesus' omniscience is confirmed by his knowing people's thoughts (Mark 2:8), seeing Nathan under the fig tree when he was far away (John 1:48).
3. Also, "Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him" (John 6:64).
4. Jesus "needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in men" (John 2:25).
5. The disciples later said to Jesus, "Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you" (John 16:30).
6. After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus asked Peter if he loved him. On the third time, Peter's answer was: "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you". Peter's confidence was that Jesus knows what is in the heart of every human being, so he is confident that Jesus knows what is in his own heart.

Oz

 

[Maite Els]

The Scriptures provide evidence contrary to some of your statements:

1. Jesus confirms his eternity with the statements, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and " I am the Alpha & Omega" (Rev. 22:13).
2. Jesus' omniscience is confirmed by his knowing people's thoughts (Mark 2:8), seeing Nathan under the fig tree when he was far away (John 1:48).
3. Also, "Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him" (John 6:64).
4. Jesus "needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in men" (John 2:25).
5. The disciples later said to Jesus, "Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you" (John 16:30).
6. After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus asked Peter if he loved him. On the third time, Peter's answer was: "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you". Peter's confidence was that Jesus knows what is in the heart of every human being, so he is confident that Jesus knows what is in his own heart.

Oz

Does not matter how many things Jesus knew; he did demostrate having the knowledge of a prophet.

The real point is how many things Jesus didnt know. It will be enough for a single thing not knowing for not being omniscient.
Jesus did not know the time of his return, and that single thing is enough to see that he were not omniscient.

But the things that Jesus didnt know were numberless. there is way too many things that Jesus didnt know.
One exmaple: he didnt know whta it was given to him to drink at the cross. it were necessary for him to taste it in orther to found out what he didnt know.
That is one of many examples of Jesus not knowing.

 

[OzSpen]

Does not matter how many things Jesus knew; he did demostrate having the knowledge of a prophet.

The real point is how many things Jesus didnt know. It will be enough for a single thing not knowing for not being omniscient.
Jesus did not know the time of his return, and that single thing is enough to see that he were not omniscient.

But the things that Jesus didnt know were numberless. there is way too many things that Jesus didnt know.
One exmaple: he didnt know whta it was given to him to drink at the cross. it were necessary for him to taste it in orther to found out what he didnt know.
That is one of many examples of Jesus not knowing.

So are you saying that you have more knowledge than Jesus had about his omniscience and how that functions for Jesus as the second person of the Trinity?

Oz

 

[decent orange]

.

 

[Maite Els]

So are you saying that you have more knowledge than Jesus had about his omniscience and how that functions for Jesus as the second person of the Trinity?

Oz

I never claim we having more knowledge than Jesus. Actually, Jesus did know something you dont know; Jesus did know he was not omnisciente.

And Jesus is the incarnation of the "second person of the trinity". The "second person of the trinity" is Christ, and Christ did incarnate as Jesus, and for achieving the incarnation he emptied out. In the Gospels we found a Jesus who did not know a long list of facts. In the Gospels we found a Jesus not being omniscient at all. I presume (it is just a presumtion) that there must be a connection between Christ emtying out and the lack of omniscience in Jesus (a presumption from my part).

 

[paul becke]

No. The very idea that a human creature could exist as omniscient is absurd in the extreme (and yet countless Christians believe it to be true)?!

However, the Messiah/Christ existing as both Divine Creator and human creature is both Omniscient and non-Omniscient (which is why the Scriptures are non-contradictory). As Divine Creator the Messiah/Christ Exists as Omniscient (Matt.11:20-24, 27) whilst as human creature the Messiah/Christ does not exist as omniscient (Mk.13:32) otherwise all human creatures would exist as omniscient (Heb.2:17)?!. Hardly rocket science?!

YHWH is the Infinite Divine Creator. Jesus of Nazareth is a finite human creature. The Messiah/Christ (i.e. the Son) exists as both YHWH and Jesus of Nazareth. The Messiah/Christ is the human incarnation of God NOT the Divine incarnation of God (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3) because Divinity is incapable of incarnating (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17).

Simonline.

Yes, Simonline, Jesus chose to be subject to the limitations of our human nature, as part of the very purpose of his Incarnation. He even claimed that he didn't now the 'hour' of the end of time.

Likewise, he reserved recourse to his own divine omniscience and power for occasions when he thought their display would be helpful to our salvation. Most of his greatest miracles, as well as his Transfiguration, he reserved for the witness solely of his closest disciples. In case people doubted that his crucifixion was voluntarily accepted, indeed, sought, by him, he had the party of police who were about to arrest him, thrown to the ground. And then I think he more or less said, 'Buck up! If you're gong to arrest me, arrest me!'

However, most of the time, he accepted suffering as we must, except that his sufferings would have been very much greater and more painful; as plainly was the sacrificial nature of his whole ministry, during which he cured the sick by taking their sins upon himself, remained homeless, spent nights in prayer, and so on. When he sat down by Jacob's well at Sichar and spoke with the Samaritan woman, he did so because he was tired, in the same way that we become tired.

As a matter of fact, it can be clearly seen in Jesus' apparently baffled criticisms of the disciples, that he couldn't understand why they were so lacking in the wisdom he, himself, possessed in such abundance; even though, while some knowledge and understanding would have been directly suffused, as ours can be, he would mostly have learned by experience, as he grew up, just as we do. We know he also learnt obedience through his sufferings. So, I believe your post is correct, if I understand it correctly.

 

[Maite Els]

Yes, Simonline, Jesus chose to be subject to the limitations of our human nature, as part of the very purpose of his Incarnation. He even claimed that he didn't now the 'hour' of the end of time.

Likewise, he reserved recourse to his own divine omniscience and power for occasions when he thought their display would be helpful to our salvation. Most of his greatest miracles, as well as his Transfiguration, he reserved for the witness solely of his closest disciples. In case people doubted that his crucifixion was voluntarily accepted, indeed, sought, by him, he had the party of police who were about to arrest him, thrown to the ground. And then I think he more or less said, 'Buck up! If you're gong to arrest me, arrest me!'

However, most of the time, he accepted suffering as we must, except that his sufferings would have been very much greater and more painful; as plainly was the sacrificial nature of his whole ministry, during which he cured the sick by taking their sins upon himself, remained homeless, spent nights in prayer, and so on. When he sat down by Jacob's well at Sichar and spoke with the Samaritan woman, he did so because he was tired, in the same way that we become tired.

As a matter of fact, it can be clearly seen in Jesus' apparently baffled criticisms of the disciples, that he couldn't understand why they were so lacking in the wisdom he, himself, possessed in such abundance; even though, while some knowledge and understanding would have been directly suffused, as ours can be, he would mostly have learned by experience, as he grew up, just as we do. We know he also learnt obedience through his sufferings. So, I believe your post is correct, if I understand it correctly.

Offcourse all of that is mere human thinking. There is not a litle bit of scriptural support for such human doctrines and the lack of any biblical text is very evident.

I invite you to discuss the issue in base of the Bible, not in empty and void human philosophy.

 

[OzSpen]

I never claim we having more knowledge than Jesus. Actually, Jesus did know something you dont know; Jesus did know he was not omnisciente.

And Jesus is the incarnation of the "second person of the trinity". The "second person of the trinity" is Christ, and Christ did incarnate as Jesus, and for achieving the incarnation he emptied out. In the Gospels we found a Jesus who did not know a long list of facts. In the Gospels we found a Jesus not being omniscient at all. I presume (it is just a presumtion) that there must be a connection between Christ emtying out and the lack of omniscience in Jesus (a presumption from my part).

Jesus, being fully God, was omniscient but he knew how that omniscience functioned and we as fallible human beings don't understand how he can be fully God, fully omniscient, and yet not allow that omniscience to function at times (like the time of his second coming).

One of the fundamental attributes of God is omniscience and that applies to the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.

Don't you believe that Jesus has been and always will be fully God (with all of the attributes of God)?

Oz

 

[Maite Els]

Jesus, being fully God, was omniscient but he knew how that omniscience functioned and we as fallible human beings don't understand how he can be fully God, fully omniscient, and yet not allow that omniscience to function at times (like the time of his second coming).

One of the fundamental attributes of God is omniscience and that applies to the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.

Don't you believe that Jesus has been and always will be fully God (with all of the attributes of God)?

Oz

To be omniscent IS NOT one of God atributes. For Jesus to be God was not necessary to be omniscient.

What you state is only human philosophy. There is not a single scriptural evidence or even sugestion that Jesus were omniscient but he not alowed omniscience to work all the time.

If you keep saying that, this treath will be moved to unorthodox.

 

[RDKirk]

The Scriptures provide evidence contrary to some of your statements:

1. Jesus confirms his eternity with the statements, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and " I am the Alpha & Omega" (Rev. 22:13).
2. Jesus' omniscience is confirmed by his knowing people's thoughts (Mark 2:8), seeing Nathan under the fig tree when he was far away (John 1:48).
3. Also, "Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him" (John 6:64).
4. Jesus "needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in men" (John 2:25).
5. The disciples later said to Jesus, "Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you" (John 16:30).
6. After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus asked Peter if he loved him. On the third time, Peter's answer was: "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you". Peter's confidence was that Jesus knows what is in the heart of every human being, so he is confident that Jesus knows what is in his own heart.

Oz

This is proof that Jesus knew what He needed to know when He needed to know it.

As has been mentioned, Jesus did not know the time of His own second coming, and that fact itself proves He was not--at that point in time--omniscient.

I rather like the way Anne Rice portrayed His knowledge from her daring first-person viewpoint of Jesus in "Jesus the Christ: The Road to Cana."

In her story, when Jesus needed to know something, He "drew" on a source of knowledge that was beyond His own human brain. It was like a computer reading data from a hard drive into ram. He did not constantly hear everyone's thoughts, and often preferred not to, but when he needed to, he could.

 

[RDKirk]

Regarding Jesus' divinity: Jesus is not characterized as divine by the superpowers He has. Jesus is divine by heredity.

 

[Maite Els]

Regarding Jesus' divinity: Jesus is not characterized as divine by the superpowers He has. Jesus is divine by heredity.

OK.
God is not God for being omniscient. God has omniscience for being God. Omniscience dont make God to be God. Lack of omniscience dont make God to quit being God. Omniscience is not inherent to the divinity.

 

[RDKirk]

I dont respect any Anne Rice saying such absurd ideas.

The Bible clearly portray a Jesus not being omniscient and not knowing what a regular human prophet knows. The Gospels dont show any special knowledge in Jesus that were beyond the knowledge of a human prophet. And the same acounts are tellng us of Jesus not knowing many things he did wanted to know and investigates until founding out the answer. The knowing of Jesus is described exactly the same of any human prophet.

The problem is the theologians fabricating the concept of Jesus being omniscient. Then, the same theologians has to fabricate all funny and tricky answers to demostrate what they - not the Bible but they - are saying.

The issue is easy: The Word of God says Jesus has the knowledge of a regular human prophet. The theologians say contrary. Who do you believe to????

I believe what scripture says, and someone has already identified those scriptures that indicate Jesus did, indeed, know more than a prophet would know. A prophet gains his knowledge through visions and dreams that are then interpreted by angels. There is no indication whatsoever that Jesus depended on visions and dreams or subsequent interpretation by angels, not a single time, not ever. His knowledge was clearly native to His own mind through the Father, and He always knew what He needed to know for the moment at hand.

However, I would not say He was "omniscient" because just as clearly, there was at least one thing He did not know.

I would speculate that Jesus understood that whatever knowledge He did not have, the Father had a reason for sealing it from Him, and He was totally okay with that.

 

[Maite Els]

I believe what scripture says, and someone has already identified those scriptures that indicate Jesus did, indeed, know more than a prophet would know. A prophet gains his knowledge through visions and dreams that are then interpreted by angels. There is no indication whatsoever that Jesus depended on visions and dreams or subsequent interpretation by angels, not a single time, not ever. His knowledge was clearly native to His own mind through the Father, and He always knew what He needed to know for the moment at hand.

However, I would not say He was "omniscient" because just as clearly, there was at least one thing He did not know.

I would speculate that Jesus understood that whatever knowledge He did not have, the Father had a reason for sealing it from Him, and He was totally okay with that.

It is a triky explanation on how a prophet recieves knowledge. Sorry but you are making it up. It never was like that.

Jesus told the samaritanian woman about her husband - you know the details - and her answer was "you are a prophet"

If we take your thits we can say that Paul, Herod or whoever, was also omniscient. Pilates was omniscient, but he didnt know because he choose not to know and he controls his omniscience. The dunky in wich jesus entered jerusalem was omniscient; only that him/it controled his omniscience and choose not to know.

 

[Ronald]

Was Jesus omniscient?
God emptied Himself into a human. He relinguished his glory, power and of course we must say knowledge. Did the newborn baby Jesus come out speaking and prophecying and knowing everything that was going on? No. He is the Creator (Col.1:16,17; John 1:1-14), but as a child was given what He needed as He matured and grew towards His purpose.
"who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."Phil. 2:6-11

He didn't intend for man to quite grasp this concept of God coming down and being a man. So His divine glory was not fully revealed but shadowed (except for a moment on the Mt of transfiguration) and then after the resurrection, they saw His body appearing and disappearing. He did demonstrate His authority in healing and resurrecting the dead and even in His own resurrection. I believe He knew everything, thought and person He came across. He did and said what was needed and purposed, He was perfect, not lacking anything. When He ascended into heaven, the Father then gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth --again. Having all knowledge does not necessitate using it in every situation or at every moment. I do think knowledge was withheld by the Father until the annointing at His baptism, when His ministry began. When He asked questions, He already knew the answers, but it was for the benefit of us all to learn from.

 

[Maite Els]

You confuse me. Are you saying that Jesus was omniscient or that he was not?
If Christ emptied out as Paul teaches, then Jesus was not omniscient.
As you say, bay Jesus was not omniscient.
But then you sugest thta as a wrow up, Jesus was omniscient knowing everything.
But we have demostrate that Jesus did not know way too many things.

 

[OzSpen]

To be omniscent IS NOT one of God atributes. For Jesus to be God was not necessary to be omniscient.

What you state is only human philosophy. There is not a single scriptural evidence or even sugestion that Jesus were omniscient but he not alowed omniscience to work all the time.

If you keep saying that, this treath will be moved to unorthodox.

What I've stated about God's omniscience is the teaching of Scripture: Gen 6:5; Job 2:11; 36:4; 37:16; Ps. 139:2-4, 17-18; Ps. 147:4-5; Isa. 40:28; 42:9; 46:10; Matt. 6:8; 10:29-30; Acts 15:17-18; Rom. 8:29; 11:33; Eph 1:11 and Heb. 4:13.

The attribute of God's omniscience is taught by biblical Christianity (based on scriptural teaching) and not according to your accusation of its being "only human philosophy".

If you keep saying that, this treath will be moved to unorthodox.

Are you a moderator who determines what ought to be in unorthodox theology?

See 'If Jesus is God why did He not know the hour of his return?' (Matt Slick, CARM).

Oz

 

[Maite Els]

What I've stated about God's omniscience is the teaching of Scripture: Gen 6:5; Job 2:11; 36:4; 37:16; Ps. 139:2-4, 17-18; Ps. 147:4-5; Isa. 40:28; 42:9; 46:10; Matt. 6:8; 10:29-30; Acts 15:17-18; Rom. 8:29; 11:33; Eph 1:11 and Heb. 4:13.

The attribute of God's omniscience is taught by biblical Christianity (based on scriptural teaching) and not according to your accusation of its being "only human philosophy".
Are you a moderator who determines what ought to be in unorthodox theology?

See 'If Jesus is God why did He not know the hour of his return?' (Matt Slick, CARM).

Oz

I am not a moderator but I know the CF rules. posting unorthodox issues as you do is not possible in this section.

God atributes. In the entire bible we dont read of God BEING omniscient. We dont read of God BE omniscient. We do read of God HAVING omniscience or God knowing everything. It does not mean that the omniscience is one tribite of what God IS.

 

[Maite Els]

Jesus, being fully God, was omniscient but he knew how that omniscience functioned and we as fallible human beings don't understand how he can be fully God, fully omniscient, and yet not allow that omniscience to function at times (like the time of his second coming).

One of the fundamental attributes of God is omniscience and that applies to the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.

Don't you believe that Jesus has been and always will be fully God (with all of the attributes of God)?

Oz

this is not Nicene Creed orthodoxy.

 

[OzSpen]

I am not a moderator but I know the CF rules. posting unorthodox issues as you do is not possible in this section.

God atributes. In the entire bible we dont read of God BEING omniscient. We dont read of God BE omniscient. We do read of God HAVING omniscience or God knowing everything. It does not mean that the omniscience is one tribite of what God IS.

I provided you with biblical references to demonstrate God's (the Trinitarian God) omniscience, which is the doctrine of biblical orthodoxy. Why do you ignore the biblical support I provided?

Norman Geisler is an orthodox, evangelical, biblical exegete, theologian and apologist. In the second volume of his Systematic Theology: God, Creation (vol 2, 2003. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse) he has an entire chapter providing an exposition of the orthodox doctrine of God's omniscience (ch 8, pp. 180-212).

Has it occurred to you that you might be the one promoting something other than orthodox Christianity with your failure to support the Trinitarian God's omniscience?

Bye,
Oz