Was Jesus a Young Earth Creationist?

cloudyday2

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It would be a more serious issue than his use of Noah as an illustration, because it would mean that his view of his own mission was wrong.

Jesus could have believed that the End was coming sooner than it actually was without causing the problem. After all, he said himself that he didn't know. What causes the problem is if his primary mission was to proclaim an immediate End.
IMO, it would not be an insurmountable problem, because omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible with being human. If Jesus actually knew everything then he would NOT be human. If a person doesn't know everything then a person also doesn't know what they know and what they do not know. Therefore a person without omniscience is almost certain to be mistaken about various things.

The traits that might have made Jesus truly God while still being truly human would be things like universal selfless love and a desire to serve God's plan (without fully knowing God's plan of course). Those are things any human can theoretically achieve and they would make a person indistinguishable from God in character.
 
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Robban

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Yes, but would you agree that most Jews in the first century believed that Genesis described literal history? If so, then why wouldn't Jesus believe that? Being omniscient would be cheating. For Jesus to have been human, he had to be a normal Jew of his time with all the intellectual and cultural consequences.

Here is another question for you? Would it matter if Jesus was a Young Earth Creationist? Would that invalidate claims that Jesus was God in human form?

IMO, if Jesus was God then it was due to his deep relationship with God and perfect obedience. That was the only way that Jesus could be a human and also be God.

Re your first question.

The Torah cannot be read like any other book.

It is G-d,s wisdom, and thus has infinite levels of depth.

There is no word in the Torah that is outdated as G-d is above time, so is His wisdom.

While some laws of the Torah are no longer applied literally, their mystical and deeper meanings are still as relevant today as ever.


Every law, story or idea the Torah teaches can be taken literally but also has layers of meaning beyond the surface.

It is inspiring to discover how those lessons speak to us today.
 
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klutedavid

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Jesus mentions Noah and the Flood, so Jesus probably believed all the stories in Genesis to be historical.

Many Christians today do NOT believe in a Global Flood and a Garden of Eden, so I wonder how they rationalize their belief that Jesus was divine with the possibility that Jesus was mistaken about the historicity of Genesis?

Is it o.k. for a divine figure to be wrong about those things?
Just checking that I am on the OP.
 
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Starcomet

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Re your first question.

The Torah cannot be read like any other book.

It is G-d,s wisdom, and thus has infinite levels of depth.

There is no word in the Torah that is outdated as G-d is above time, so is His wisdom.

While some laws of the Torah are no longer applied literally, their mystical and deeper meanings are still as relevant today as ever.


Every law, story or idea the Torah teaches can be taken literally but also has layers of meaning beyond the surface.

It is inspiring to discover how those lessons speak to us today.

I mostly agree that the wisdom of the torah is timeless even if the majority of the laws and customs are no longer applied.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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You guys are getting pretty frisky bringing in Bart. But I do think he needs to be dealt with. There is so much added to the historic Jesus it is difficult to assess what he actually thought and new on som epoints. The orthodox position would be that much of what was added has been by the Holy Spirit....like the Gospel of John. Are the prediction of Jesus own resurrection reliable or added later? So many questions we can entertain.
 
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klutedavid

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Jesus mentions Noah and the Flood, so Jesus probably believed all the stories in Genesis to be historical.

Many Christians today do NOT believe in a Global Flood and a Garden of Eden, so I wonder how they rationalize their belief that Jesus was divine with the possibility that Jesus was mistaken about the historicity of Genesis?

Is it o.k. for a divine figure to be wrong about those things?
Was Jesus correct in referring to the flood of Noah as a fact, or was Jesus simply uneducated?

Ancient floods and mega floods?

We know that there are ancient towns underneath the oceans around the world. For example here is one such submerged town; please read the following information.

Alit Yam, Israel.
Underwater excavations have uncovered rectangular houses and a well. The site was covered by the eustatic rise of sea levels after the end of the Ice age. It is assumed that the contemporary coastline was about 1 km (a half-mile) west of the present coast. Piles of fish ready for trade or storage have led scientists to conclude that the village was abandoned suddenly. (wikipedia)

So we are certain that there were ancient floods and floods covering vast areas of the earth. This is really beyond any question. Whether these floods were caused by melting ice or from the deep is irrelevant, huge floods have always occurred. We don't know a lot about what caused these floods but we will always speculate.

We also know that Jesus came from above and spoke with the full authority of the creator.

Jesus never, ever spoke, other than with that full divine authority over all things and those things included the heavenly realms, the natural world and the demonic realms.

It should be noted that ancient stories undergo editing by different cultures over time, this has always been the case and always will be. The Genesis account is very old and has been subject to some very obvious editing by authors through the ages.

If Jesus referred to Noah then you can be absolutely sure that Noah existed. Does the flood need to be a global flood? Not really, you just need Noah and his family to be delivered from a relatively quick flood, one of those ancient deluges that have always occurred.

Opinions on a young earth or an old earth ultimately depend on the accuracy of the genealogy recorded in the O.T. The text has always undergone editing.
 
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klutedavid

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You guys are getting pretty frisky bringing in Bart. But I do think he needs to be dealt with. There is so much added to the historic Jesus it is difficult to assess what he actually thought and new on som epoints. The orthodox position would be that much of what was added has been by the Holy Spirit....like the Gospel of John. Are the prediction of Jesus own resurrection reliable or added later? So many questions we can entertain.
Regardless of any creative writing that no doubt took place though the ages concerning this Jewish messiah. We have the messianic prophecies that tell us in no uncertain terms, that one would be born to us and He would be the Lord of heaven and earth. (Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Zecariah, e.t.c.)

Jesus brilliantly shines through and that is what the scripture is all really about. So whether something was added or lost from the text, whether the text was accurate in all places, seriously my friend; who cares?

God is just so clever and everything is working out just the way He knew it would. He will return.
 
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cloudyday2

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We also know that Jesus came from above and spoke with the full authority of the creator.

Jesus never, ever spoke, other than with that full divine authority over all things and those things included the heavenly realms, the natural world and the demonic realms.
Is it possible for Jesus to make an honest mistake in your Christology? For example, we know today that the Sun is far more massive than the Earth and that the planets orbit the Sun. I don't believe anybody understood this about our solar system at the time of Jesus. Was Jesus allowed to mistakenly believe that the planets orbited the Earth?
 
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klutedavid

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Is it possible for Jesus to make an honest mistake in your Christology? For example, we know today that the Sun is far more massive than the Earth and that the planets orbit the Sun. I don't believe anybody understood this about our solar system at the time of Jesus. Was Jesus allowed to mistakenly believe that the planets orbited the Earth?
Jesus was a perfect entity, Jesus was not of the earth, Jesus came from above. Jesus has always existed and was the one through whom everything was created.

Errors and stupidity belong to the domain of mankind and the one from above was the absolute, divine truth manifested in human form.

That Jesus could err is simply heresy.
 
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cloudyday2

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Jesus was a perfect entity, Jesus was not of the earth, Jesus came from above. Jesus has always existed and was the one through whom everything was created.

Errors and stupidity belong to the domain of mankind and the one from above was the absolute, divine truth manifested in human form.

That Jesus could err is simply heresy.
As somebody mentioned earlier, one of the gospels says "and Jesus grew in wisdom". If Jesus was already perfect in wisdom then there was no room for growth.
 
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hedrick

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Is it possible for Jesus to make an honest mistake in your Christology? For example, we know today that the Sun is far more massive than the Earth and that the planets orbit the Sun. I don't believe anybody understood this about our solar system at the time of Jesus. Was Jesus allowed to mistakenly believe that the planets orbited the Earth?
If you look at Chalcedon in isolation, you might be able to argue for it. The problem, however, is that in traditional terms every act of Jesus is also an act of God. Whatever you might get out of a literal reading, Chalcedon was never intended to allow for purely human acts, but rather for acts that are understood in both terms.

Of course that gets stretched when Jesus dies. We then have to understand that God somehow went through death. But I doubt many Christians following traditional theology would extend that to allow mistakes. Certainly it's clear that saying Jesus sinned is not acceptable.

If you asked members of my church, I think many would agree with you. Surveys suggest that this they're not alone. But I don't think you'll find anyone outside the liberal churches considering the idea officially acceptable.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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We have the messianic prophecies that tell us in no uncertain terms, that one would be born to us and He would be the Lord of heaven and earth. (Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Zecariah, e.t.c.)

That, of course. is the Christian reading and interpretation. The Jews did not expect anything other than a human messiah king. And not a suffering servant.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Jesus has always existed and was the one through whom everything was created.

Jesus was born in time. Christ, Logos, pre-existed.

Or are you thinking Jesus existed without a body?
 
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klutedavid

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That, of course. is the Christian reading and interpretation. The Jews did not expect anything other than a human messiah king. And not a suffering servant.
The prophecies are of an eternal Lord, a King of heaven and earth. The Jews need to read the scripture because they are deeply mistaken. Jesus was never an earthly king.

Daniel 7:13-14
I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Is it possible for Jesus to make an honest mistake in your Christology? For example, we know today that the Sun is far more massive than the Earth and that the planets orbit the Sun. I don't believe anybody understood this about our solar system at the time of Jesus. Was Jesus allowed to mistakenly believe that the planets orbited the Earth?
So, Aristarchus argued that the Earth and planets revolved around the Sun, and worked out the distances thereof. His size and distance of the Sun is way off, but not on account of something wrong with his method, but his measured angle was about 2 degrees out - which telescoped his errors to size and distance immensely. Regardless, he thought the Sun very much larger than the Earth. Incidently, his size and distance of the Moon was only 7% out. He lived about the 3rd century BC.
Claudius Ptolemy wrote the Almagest in 2nd Century AD, in which he wrote that in reference to the size and distance of the Sun and stars, the Earth had to be treated as a mathematical point.

Regardless, at the time of Jesus, educated people thought the Sun much larger than the Earth, and though Geocentric models became dominant, there was still a lively debate around the possibility of Heliocentrism.

Jesus is Truth though. I would say an 'honest mistake' is probably impossible, as I would think Jesus acted perfectly in life, within the confines of His humanity. For all His actions are the perfectly willed actions of God, and thus not erroneous. What His human beliefs were, we can only surmise based on the Gospel accounts, thus introducing extra-Biblical speculation; but arguing whether or not He agreed with later constructed scientific models is completely irrelevant - as we simply don't know if they are really accurate, whether Jesus held them or not or even thought about it, nor would it be culturally appropriate to His time to consider such derived modelling as veridical themselves.
 
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cloudyday2

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Jesus is Truth though. I would say an 'honest mistake' is probably impossible, as I would think Jesus acted perfectly in life, within the confines of His humanity. For all His actions are the perfectly willed actions of God, and thus not erroneous.
Let's take the example of the exorcisms of Jesus. Many modern people see psychological and neurological illnesses as the causes rather than demons. Jesus apparently believed he was casting out demons and even thought he was talking to demons sometimes. God was healing people through Jesus even though Jesus didn't understand what was actually happening as thoroughly as we might understand today.

I don't see a problem with believing Jesus was unschooled, ethnocentric, superstitious, or anything else that would have been typical for a Jew of his era. Jesus through obedience to God might have overcome his human limitations through perfect obedience to God, so that God could say "this is my own son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him."
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Let's take the example of the exorcisms of Jesus. Many modern people see psychological and neurological illnesses as the causes rather than demons. Jesus apparently believed he was casting out demons and even thought he was talking to demons sometimes. God was healing people through Jesus even though Jesus didn't understand what was actually happening as thoroughly as we might understand today.

I don't see a problem with believing Jesus was unschooled, ethnocentric, superstitious, or anything else that would have been typical for a Jew of his era. Jesus through obedience to God might have overcome his human limitations through perfect obedience to God, so that God could say "this is my own son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him."
This keeps sounding like Adoptionism to me, which I certainly disagree with, as I consider Jesus the Incarnation of God Almighty.

Anyway, we are running into problems of interpretation here. You assume Jesus was curing neurologic or psychologic disease, because you are reading that into an explicit text of Exorcism. We have no way of determining the fact of the matter behind the text, whether this was a cure of such disease or not. It certainly appeared to the writer, or the source he derived from, that Jesus was casting out demons. This doesn't really tell us what Jesus Himself thought He was doing, so in essence the argument is trying to read between the lines and behind the text.

Regardless, it is not uncommon for the mentally ill to consider themselves possessed, sometimes even amongst the secular (hearing voices, command hallucinations, etc. are common symptoms). If Jesus 'cured' the mentally ill by commanding their own delusion to depart, there really is no problem deriving the text from such an act (barring the demoniac of Gadara's pigs).

This all assumes that there aren't demons though. If demonic forces really were out and about, I would think the mentally ill to be low-hanging fruit, ripe for possession. Their faculties are already impaired, so why not? The difference between the Possessed and the Mentally Ill would thus be frequently blurred. So unless we start with the a priori assumption of Materialism, when examining a text that clearly makes Spiritual claims, you would not think thus. This seems a tad silly to me.

Further, the argument is often made that we "don't see possession today", but if we are dealing with beings with volition here, perhaps they are catering to the audience? It would fit the aims of presumed demons to run under the radar today, as that great quote of the greatest trick of the devil being us not believing in him, has it. In a time where everyone did, it would make more sense to try and demonstrate their power. A great literary treatment of this, is the devil in Brothers Karamazov by Doestoyevsky - where Ivan doesn't know if he is real or a delusion of his fevered mind.

So, really it depends how the text is interpreted, so is dependant on the readers' assumption and worldview - rather than Jesus'. Only the Pig episode, as far as I am aware, unequivocally endorses the existence of the demoniac therefore. If you are so keen to read modern Psychiatry and Psychology into the text though, it would be fairly easy to dismiss this as embellishment. In my personal opinion: If demons exist, there is no problem with the Biblical text; if they do not, then mental illness in that cultural mileau would present as demonic possession as depicted regardless - so either way, Jesus' action seems explicable, the differentiation blurred at that stage, so the answer to which Jesus 'really believed' says more about the metaphysical or historical assumptions of the answerer, than the opinion of the man Jesus. We all concur the writers of the Gospels believed in demons, but that doesn't mean Jesus did, unless you imbue Him with your own presupposition as to His nature.
 
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cloudyday2

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An example
The concept of prison is nowhere to be found in Judaism.

The punishment of "incarceration" as we know it, is nowhere
to be found in traditional Torah based Jewish law.
According to some Jewish sects, the rebellious angels who mated with human women were punished with imprisonment in a pit beneath Mt. Hermon.

Also there seems to be a Jewish tradition of throwing people in wells. This happened to Joseph and also Jeremiah I believe. That is a form of imprisonment.

Also there was debt slavery. Debt slavery is being imprisoned by your creditor.
 
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