Was he right?

[Tellyontellyon]

No, I'm saying, very clearly, that Marquis de Sade was wrong.

From what we read in the Bible----with "reading" in the terms I'm implying indicating the importance of solid academic Hermeneutics and Biblical Exegesis----it was never God's intention for people to fall away En Masse from Him for eternity.

Also, it's not "MY" Bible. The Bible is a collection of ancient, FOREIGN writings (i.e. not American-Made) that I have decided to take seriously above and beyond other ideologies or religions.

Thems is some fancy speakin' words!

But I'd be much more impressed if you quoted chapter and verse.

When I say 'Your' bible, I'm referring to you plural, as Christians.

 

[d taylor]

Falling away is apostasy. Jesus Christ of Nazareth along with His Apostles and disciples warned about this. It is possible to once love Jesus Christ of Nazareth but then decide to reject Him for one reason or another. Don't be fooled into thinking that OSAS is truth. It is not.
Be blessed.

-
​

Believing in the apostasy of a believer. Is a belief held by people, who believe they are saved. Because they are doing something to earn their salvation.
repentance, loving God, following God, being baptized, etc...

 

[timothyu]

Because they are doing something to earn their salvation.
repentance, loving God, following God, being baptized, etc...

That is half the coin. People love to divide. God gave us a chance for resurrection and eternal life free of charge yes, but the other side of the coin you mentioned here is also part of the whole, for without it there is no fruit, just vanity

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thems is some fancy speakin' words!

What? ... you mean you've never studied Hermeneutics or Exegesis?

Good gracious, man! What have you studied?

But I'd be much more impressed if you quoted chapter and verse.

From which part of the Bible would you like me to quote chapter and verse....?

When I say 'Your' bible, I'm referring to you plural, as Christians.

I kind of figured that.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

What? ... you mean you've never studied Hermeneutics or Exegesis?

Good gracious, man! What have you studied?

From which part of the Bible would you like me to quote chapter and verse....?


I kind of figured that.

I would like you to quote from the parts of the Bible that demonstrate your assertion that, in the light of god's omniscience, it was never god's plan for huge numbers of people to go to heaven, and that heaven will be practically empty.

And show how my suggestion that even now the vast majority of people are unsaved... even though most have heard of Christianity with active churches all over the world, is wrong

Look at how many unsaved people die every day... not just children etc. Hell will be stuffed full.

Also consider, if you are right... well what's the point of me or anyone else worrying about becoming Christian?

The hermeneutics must have been done on some verses... Quote them please.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would like you to quote from the parts of the Bible that demonstrate your assertion that, in the light of god's omniscience, it was never god's plan for huge numbers of people to go to heaven, and that heaven will be practically empty.

..... no, I intended to say that it was never God's plan for huge numbers of people to go to Hell.

I guess I'll have to review what I said above before proceeding to make sure I've been clear.

And show how my suggestion that even now the vast majority of people are unsaved... even though most have heard of Christianity with active churches all over the world, is wrong

Look at how many unsaved people die every day... not just children etc. Hell will be stuffed full.

Also consider, if you are right... well what's the point of me or anyone else worrying about becoming Christian?

The hermeneutics must have been done on some verses... Quote them please.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

..... no, I intended to say that it was never God's plan for huge numbers of people to go to Hell.

I guess I'll have to review what I said above before proceeding to make sure I've been clear.

Anyway, a typo on my part... I meant to type 'hell'...
... So the question is still about a huge number of people that must be heading for hell... God, being omniscient, would have known that from the beginning. If you argue that that isn't the case.. show it in verses.

 

[ozso]

Anyway, a typo on my part... I meant to type 'hell'...
... So the question is still about a huge number of people that must be heading for hell... God, being omniscient, would have known that from the beginning. If you argue that that isn't the case.. show it in verses.

What's the difference if God knew it or not? Everyone who is given the knowledge of salvation is in the position of making a choice. You I presume have so far made the choice to refuse the gift of salvation through Christ. How does God knowing about your refusal ahead of time have anything to do with the choice you've made?

 

[CoreyD]

The question wasn't about salvation... The question was about the fact that even with Christ's blood shed on the cross etc., and various exceptions.... hell is still going to be stuffed full of souls for eternity... and god knew that when he created the world.

* That is the issue that I'm curious about.

Based on the concept of church doctrine, Marquis was right.
Based on the Bible, he was wrong, since God did not create hell, and certainly he did not create a place to stuff souls.

The Bible refers to death of the wicked, and the lake of fire is the second death. Revelation 20:14
The first death is the wages of sin, which all of us inherited from Adam. Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

So, everyone dies - from the fetus to the old gray headed, wrinkled man, regardless of how we live our life. That is the first death.
With the second death, only those who choose to live their life in disobedience to God, after having a fair chance a knowing the truth, will experience the second death. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10; Revelation 20:12-15

 

[Tellyontellyon]

What's the difference if God knew it or not? Everyone who is given the knowledge of salvation is in the position of making a choice. You I presume have so far made the choice to refuse the gift of salvation through Christ. How does God knowing about your refusal ahead of time have anything to do with the choice you've made?

But if God knew what I would choose before he created me even before creating heaven and earth, then for what was I ultimately created.. My fate was sealed at the dawn of time. To argue otherwise is pure sophistry.

 

[ozso]

But if God knew what I would choose before he created me even before creating heaven and earth, then for what was I ultimately created.. My fate was sealed at the dawn of time. To argue otherwise is pure sophistry.

Why do you have a problem with that since you've chosen to go along with it?

 

[CoreyD]

Thems is some fancy speakin' words!

But I'd be much more impressed if you quoted chapter and verse.

When I say 'Your' bible, I'm referring to you plural, as Christians.

Based on church doctrine, you would be correct.
Church doctrine asserts that God knew from the beginning, before creating man, who would sin, and therefore, if as they claim, these are destined to hell, which God created for the wicked, then God made the masses of mankind - the majority (Matthew 7:13, 14) - to be stuffed in hell.

To deny that they would have to cast away the omniscience concept they hold, or the eternal punishment concept.
The truth is, and this is based on scripture, God knows what he chooses to know, and he does not choose to know everything... including what choice men would make. Genesis 22:11, 12

 

[CoreyD]

But if God knew what I would choose before he created me even before creating heaven and earth, then for what was I ultimately created.. My fate was sealed at the dawn of time. To argue otherwise is pure sophistry.

If God chose to posses that knowledge beforehand, then yes, your fate is sealed, and you would have been ultimately made for death, as the result.

However, that would not be a bad thing, since God would not have created you, but simply allowed you to be born, since God does not intervene in the procreative powers of the two created ones.

Procreation can be compared to the imperfect factory that bakes biscuits.
Some biscuits may get broken, or have some other fault, but the machine does its job, without human intervention.

Whether or not God foreknows each person's action, and outcome, what would be the case is that God allowed humans to be born, with each making their own choice, God being aware that some will make the right choice, and some will not.
So, it is as Proverbs 16:4 puts it.
The LORD has made everything for His purpose - even the wicked for the day of disaster.

The difference here, is that God did not create an evil place for those who make the wrong choice, where they will suffer eternally.
Some think that this is justice, but it is not.
Even God does not consider it right. Jeremiah 7:31

God's knowing that a person will choose death over life (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20), is not the issue you are having though. Is it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Anyway, a typo on my part... I meant to type 'hell'...
... So the question is still about a huge number of people that must be heading for hell... God, being omniscient, would have known that from the beginning. If you argue that that isn't the case.. show it in verses.

On second thought, you're right, and Marquis de Sade was right; Gehenna will open its flaming mouth and take in a huge number of people. God knew this before the universe was set in motion. He hasn't caused anyone to go to Gehenna, but He has known about it from before time.

People better take the opportunities God's gives them on this green earth to repent and turn to Him while they have the chance.

So, there we have it.