Was God behind the Reformation?

Jig · Feb 6, 2006

I believe I have brought this up before as a reply in another thread, but it didn't get far. So I am starting a new thread for discussion.

My question: Was God behind the Reformation?

I may not hold the exact same positions as Luther or Calvin, but what I see in all the reformers was a common desire to love Jesus.

Today, there is a lot of Protestants who love Jesus and confess Him as Lord and Savior. (Romans 10:9-10).

I can not see Satan wanting people to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I can not see Satan wanting people to repent for their sins and to be Christ-like. Therefore, since Satan (evil) was not behind the Reformation, God must have been. Look at how many people have been saved through Protestant/Non-denominational chruchs!

Yes, there might be a lot of different denominations, but they are all united in their belief in Jesus Christ, one of the only beliefs that truely counts! It is through Jesus we are saved.

I'm only bringing this up because a lot of Orthodox and Catholic brothers seem to look down on the Reformation (something that God had to have backed). I'm just trying to understand this position.

God bless...

Akathist · Feb 6, 2006

Mod Hat ON.

Before this thread goes very far, I wanted to remind everyone of this rule:

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individuals belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence.

Any negative comments about the doctrines behind the reformation needs evidence.

GraceInHim · Feb 6, 2006

see.. you are good TG.. have to go praise ya..

Jig · Feb 6, 2006

Those who vote NO please respond with 'who' then was behind the Reformation if not God.

Thank you.

JLT · Feb 6, 2006

Isn't God behind everything...even if it is by just allowing something to happen?

Lynn73 · Feb 6, 2006

Yes, I believe God was most definitely behind the Reformation. It was needed as the RCC had gotten far away from the simple word of God and Martin Luther recognized that. This is, of course, just my opinion and belief.

Asinner · Feb 6, 2006

Matt 16: 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

His truth will endure forever.

God Bless

catlover · Feb 6, 2006

Jig said:
Those who vote NO please respond with 'who' then was behind the Reformation if not God.

Thank you.

Heck on ETWN some person stated the DEVIL was behind the reformation. So I would imagine the posters who voted no on the poll are simply following what their church teaches.

Of course the idea that the devil was behind The Reformation is a totally false assumption.

catlover · Feb 6, 2006

Asinner said:
Matt 16: 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

His truth will endure forever.

God Bless

That passage is referring to the body of believers not a single institution/s. Yes, His truth will endure forever.

Asinner · Feb 6, 2006

Lynn73 said:
Yes, I believe God was most definitely behind the Reformation. It was needed as the RCC had gotten far away from the simple word of God and Martin Luther recognized that.

Yes, but what about the purity of faith that has remained in Orthodoxy?

God Bless

ScottBot · Feb 6, 2006

I think there were alot of problems within the Catholic clergy that needed fixing, and I think that the Reformation was a great wake-up call to the Catholic hierarchy to get their act together, which resulted in the Council of Trent and the Counter-Reformation, in which the Vatican did a serious, and long overdue, housecleaning.

Asinner · Feb 6, 2006

catlover said:
That passage is referring to the body of believers not a single institution/s. Yes, His truth will endure forever.

His Church is not an institution built by man, but a living organism which Christ Himself established, alive and VISIBLE. Why would God make finding His Church so CONFUSING and complicated. His Spirit cannot be divisible and the reformation spawned thousands of "truths", going against the very nature of Christ. His Body is One. His Faith is One. His Baptism is One.

God Bless

icxn · Feb 6, 2006

Obedience is more important even if those who demand it are wrong.

In his famous book, 'The Ladder', St John Climacus records the life of this saint. The young Acacius was a novice with an evil elder in the monastery on Sinai. The foul-tempered elder daily groused and grumbled at Acacius, and often beat him, tormenting and illtreating him in every possible way. Acacius did not complain, but bore it all patiently and with trust that it would work for his salvation. When anyone asked him how he survived, he replied : 'Well, as before the Lord God'. After nine years of obedience and ill-treatment, Acacius died. The elder buried him and then went off to lament to another elder, a holy man, saying: 'Acacius, my disciple, is dead. "I don't believe it' replied the holy elder , 'Acacius is not dead.' They then both went to the dead man's grave, and the holy elder called out: 'Brother Acacius, are you dead?' The obedient Acacius, obedient even in death, replied: 'I am not dead; the obedient cannot die.' Then the evil elder repented and shut himself in a cell near Acacius's grave, where he spent the rest of his life in repentance and prayer.
(...)
Obedience is absolute renunciation of our own life, clearly expressed in our bodily actions. Or, conversely, obedience is the mortification of the limbs while the mind remains alive. Obedience is unquestioning movement, voluntary death, a life free of curiosity, carefree danger, unprepared defense before God, fearlessness of death, a safe voyage, a sleepers progress. Obedience is the tomb of the will and the resurrection of humility. A corpse does not argue or reason as to what is good or what seems to be bad. For he who has devoutly put the soul of the novice to death [to the world i.e. the passions] will answer for everything. Obedience is an abandonment of discernment in a wealth of discernment.

St John Climacus, "The Ladder of Divine Ascent"

So IMO the Reformation wasn't the best way to deal with the problem... but not many people have the faith and courage of St. Acacius.

Bottom line, neither God nor the Devil were behind the Reformation, Men were.

catlover · Feb 6, 2006

Asinner said:
His Church is not an institution built by man, but a living organism which Christ Himself established, alive and VISIBLE. Why would God make finding His Church so CONFUSING and complicated. His Spirit cannot be divisible and the reformation spawned thousands of "truths", going against the very nature of Christ. His Body is One. His Faith is One. His Baptism is One.

God Bless

Christ established a faith to live by, not an institution.

As for the 30,000 denominations argument, diversity is not a sin. There were 12 different tribles of Isreal. If God had a problem with diversity He would have never allowed 12 different tribes.

For that matter Paul would have never written that passage about vegetables.

catlover · Feb 6, 2006

icxn said:
Obedience is more important even if those who demand it are wrong.
.

Wrong, we are not to blindly follow wrong practices. If we do we are very much a part of the wrongness.

icxn · Feb 6, 2006

catlover said:
Wrong, we are not to blindly follow wrong practices. If we do we are very much a part of the wrongness.

Very few indeed have the faith and courage of St. Acacius.

Quote:

Four monks of Scetis, clothed in skins, came one day to see the great Pambo. Each one revealed the virtue of his neighbor. The first fasted a great deal; the second was poor; the third had acquired great charity; and they said of the fourth that he had lived for twenty-two years in obedience to an old man. Abba Pambo said to them, I tell you, the virtue of this last one is the greatest. Each of the others has obtained the virtue he wished to acquire; but the last one, restraining his own will, does the will of another. Now it is of such men that the martyrs are made, if they persevere to the end. - Abba Pambo

Asinner · Feb 6, 2006

catlover said:
Christ established a faith to live by, not an institution.

As for the 30,000 denominations argument, diversity is not a sin. There were 12 different tribles of Isreal. If God had a problem with diversity He would have never allowed 12 different tribes.

For that matter Paul would have never written that passage about vegetables.

There were 12 tribes following one God. Today, there are mulitiplicities of groups following their own gods, whom they define. The very nature of who Christ is cannot even be agreed upon. This is not diversity, this is __________.

God Bless

ScottBot · Feb 6, 2006

catlover said:
Wrong, we are not to blindly follow wrong practices. If we do we are very much a part of the wrongness.

What wrong practices? In whose estimation?

ScottBot · Feb 6, 2006

Asinner said:
There were 12 tribes following one God. Today, there are mulitiplicities of groups following their own gods, whom they define. The very nature of who Christ is cannot even be agreed upon. This is not diversity, this is __________.

God Bless

I'll take "Disunity" for 1,000 Alex.

kimber1 · Feb 6, 2006

Bottom line, neither God nor the Devil were behind the Reformation, Men were.

i think that's probably the best answer i've seen given yet in the numerous threads about this discussion

Was God behind the Reformation?

Did God back the Reformation?

Yes

No

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